The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Help with word clock daisy chaining please Digital Converters
Old 23rd February 2012
  #1
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Help with word clock daisy chaining please

Hi guys, was wondering if anyone might be able to help clock my setup properly.

I have a Forssell MADA-2, Mytek 8x96ADC and RME UFX interface.
I want to use the Forssell as master.
The RME has a termination switch to turn it on or off.

Should I go: Forssell WC out --BNC-- RME, then RME WC out --BNC-- Mytek?
Or should I go from Forssell to Mytek first then terminate at the RME?
Or... should I be using T's anywhere?

Thanks so much for your help!
Old 23rd February 2012
  #2
nkf
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutr2 View Post
Hi guys, was wondering if anyone might be able to help clock my setup properly.

I have a Forssell MADA-2, Mytek 8x96ADC and RME UFX interface.
I want to use the Forssell as master.
The RME has a termination switch to turn it on or off.

Should I go: Forssell WC out --BNC-- RME, then RME WC out --BNC-- Mytek?
Or should I go from Forssell to Mytek first then terminate at the RME?
Or... should I be using T's anywhere?

Thanks so much for your help!
Avoid daisy chaining Word Clock - that is calling for problems. It is an unreliable workaround. Get a WC distribution amp.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #3
Lives for gear
 

agreed
Old 23rd February 2012
  #4
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Thanks guys,

Bear in mind I only need to do that when I'm recording drums (not going to be a constant setup), so investing in a WC dist box is not an option unfortunately.

Would another option be sending the clock from the Forssell to the RME via AES, then using a BNC from RME to Mytek?

Thanks again
Old 23rd February 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

I was wondering if you could be more specific, as at least some high end manufacturers suggest splitting the word clock with BNC and "T"s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
Avoid daisy chaining Word Clock - that is calling for problems. It is an unreliable workaround. Get a WC distribution amp.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Getting specific is a mine field in here on tho issue...just remember that clock is supposed to reach all pieces at the same time...there are loading issues that can occur on cables..I know on the Apogee site they suggested doing this with their 16x stuff..big no no in my books...distribute or have one unit feeding two other units if it has to clock outputs...if the Forsell has BNC word clock and AES outs I would use those two to clock...if that works in your situation
Old 23rd February 2012
  #7
nkf
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutr2 View Post
I was wondering if you could be more specific, as at least some high end manufacturers suggest splitting the word clock with BNC and "T"s.
As our UncleBubba wrote: this is a mine field. I deal with word clock since over 20 years and I'm speaking from experience. I don't care what some 'high end' manufacturer is suggesting. All this is probably because they don't want to worry their customers with too many necessities. Nobody with a little bit of experience would suggest a T - connector over a distribution amp. T-connectors are good for old coaxial networking not WC. The best is to build up a star topology with WC. Good digital setups are coming from planning, experimenting, proper connections and top equipment. RME is one of the companies who are doing WC implementations in an optimal way, I can't emphasis this enough.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #8
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Cool I really appreciate your advice, and I'm not in any way disagreeing with either of you. I honestly have very little experience with this and I'm trying to learn.
I will only be using this 3-device setup occasionally, and I really can't afford to purchase anything else for now - how much would a descent WC distribution amp cost?

Would you care to comment on which of these options would be best, and which is a no-go please.

Devices:
1) Forssell MADA-2 (master clock)
2) Mytek 8x96ADC (has WC in and out + termination can be switched on or off)
3) RME UFX interface (has WC in and out + termination can be switched on or off)

Option 1:
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in using "T" to split to RME WC in. (leave Mytek's termination off)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

Option 2:
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in, Mytek WC out to RME WC in.(leave Mytek's termination off)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

Option 3: (If I understood Unclebubba correctly, this is his suggestion as the next best thing to a WD dist amp?)
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in, MADA's AES to RME .(Mytek's termination on?)
Set RME's clock to AES in.

Option 4:
MADA's WC out to RME WC in, RME WC out to Mytek WC in.(Mytek's termination on?)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

I would REALLY appreciate your advice and sorry for repeating myself. I think the above is a more concise way of asking my initial question.. and I have just emailed Fred Forssell with it.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #9
nkf
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutr2 View Post
Cool I really appreciate your advice, and I'm not in any way disagreeing with either of you. I honestly have very little experience with this and I'm trying to learn.
I will only be using this 3-device setup occasionally, and I really can't afford to purchase anything else for now - how much would a descent WC distribution amp cost?

Would you care to comment on which of these options would be best, and which is a no-go please.

Devices:
1) Forssell MADA-2 (master clock)
2) Mytek 8x96ADC (has WC in and out + termination can be switched on or off)
3) RME UFX interface (has WC in and out + termination can be switched on or off)

Option 1:
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in using "T" to split to RME WC in. (leave Mytek's termination off)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

Option 2:
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in, Mytek WC out to RME WC in.(leave Mytek's termination off)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

Option 3: (If I understood Unclebubba correctly, this is his suggestion as the next best thing to a WD dist amp?)
MADA's WC out to Mytek WC in, MADA's AES to RME .(Mytek's termination on?)
Set RME's clock to AES in.

Option 4:
MADA's WC out to RME WC in, RME WC out to Mytek WC in.(Mytek's termination on?)
Set RME's clock to WC in.

I would REALLY appreciate your advice and sorry for repeating myself. I think the above is a more concise way of asking my initial question.. and I have just emailed Fred Forssell with it.
Yes, option three is like a star topology. It all depends on what you want to achieve. If it can be done with option 3 then I would try this. Termination has to be on whenever a device is the last in the chain receiving WC.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #10
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Cool thanks man.
I don't understand when you say "it depends on what you're trying to achieve"
Is there more than one thing to be achieved here?

I'm recording at 96khz, this is for tracking (AD only) all 3 converters clocked from the MADA-2. I won't split stereo mics through different converters.

Another stupid question - is "daisy-chaining" and "T- spliting" different things?
Old 23rd February 2012
  #11
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Another bit of info - I'm using 2ft long cables, the units are very close together. I read somewhere that it would take quite a lot longer lines for voltage to drop/things to go wrong.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #12
nkf
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutr2 View Post
Cool thanks man.
I don't understand when you say "it depends on what you're trying to achieve"
Is there more than one thing to be achieved here?

I'm recording at 96khz, this is for tracking (AD only) all 3 converters clocked from the MADA-2. I won't split stereo mics through different converters.

Another stupid question - is "daisy-chaining" and "T- spliting" different things?
The three devices can be connected in several ways, this is what I mean. It is a good idea to make the AD/DA to the clock master as you did.
"daisy-chaining" and "T- spliting" is the same thing for me ... maybe there is some meaning that slipped my attention ... I'm not a native English speaker. Although the splitting would mean one output to several inputs ... whatever ... I guess you found a solution, 'option 3' is your friend ...
Old 23rd February 2012
  #13
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Excellent - thanks man!
I read about some guy suggesting those are 2 different things.
What I think he means is:

- T-splitting - Having a T connected to the master's out before an actual BNC cable, then out to 2 BNC cables.
- Daisy-chaining - Having the T connected to the slave's WC input.
Old 24th February 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Option 3 looks best to me bud...I have been down some deep dark roads with clock...

ultimately...my best suggestion would be this...figure out how much conversion you need and get that and some extra in ONE UNIT...there are some very good 8 and 16 In/Out units that have excellent conversion running off a properly implemented internal clock...I know that you probably can't buy ore geay, but I can;t stress enough how simplifying you digital set up will make you love life.


Having two channels of Forsell for this and Lavry for that is highly overrated and puts you right in the spot you are in.

Good luck...option three might work well...check it out and see if everything lights up!
Old 24th February 2012
  #15
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Thanks uncle!

Yep I agree.
In fact 97.5% of the time, my setup is only Forssell + RME interface, so pretty simple and it gives me no-compromise conversion for EVERYTHING I do except drums. For drums, it becomes complex with the addition of the Mytek.
For me it still beats having 16 channels of mediocre conversion.

I appreciate your advice - I will try 2 setups (as recommended by Fred Forssell)

A) (same as option 3) Forssell WC out to Mytek (terminated), and parallel AES out to RME (RME clock set to AES in)

B) Forssell WC out to Mytek (termination OFF), T (daisy chain) to RME (termination ON)

And see (hear) if there's any difference in sound/quality/stability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleBubba View Post
Option 3 looks best to me bud...I have been down some deep dark roads with clock...

ultimately...my best suggestion would be this...figure out how much conversion you need and get that and some extra in ONE UNIT...there are some very good 8 and 16 In/Out units that have excellent conversion running off a properly implemented internal clock...I know that you probably can't buy ore geay, but I can;t stress enough how simplifying you digital set up will make you love life.


Having two channels of Forsell for this and Lavry for that is highly overrated and puts you right in the spot you are in.

Good luck...option three might work well...check it out and see if everything lights up!
Old 24th February 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 

cool...hope it works out...there is still that small issue of you thinking that something like say the AVID I/O...is mediocre conversion...but I can understand why you might think that. Report back on how it it went!
Old 24th February 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

LOL!!! I sounded like a snob - no I don't think that.
I just think Forssell is head and shoulders above Mytek, Lavry, Apogee, Lynx, UA, RME, Metric Halo, Prism Orpheus, etc. I have no experience with the new Avid, or the new Apogee, but since 2 channels of Forssell covers 90% of my end result sound, it makes sense to me to have a primary and secondary converter so I can spend more money on other stuff :o)
Cool I will report back and thanks very much again for your time and advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleBubba View Post
cool...hope it works out...there is still that small issue of you thinking that something like say the AVID I/O...is mediocre conversion...but I can understand why you might think that. Report back on how it it went!
Old 24th February 2012
  #18
Lives for gear
 

...cool...so you've worked with all those other converters...that's a whole bunch...i have personally worked with MOTU, Apogee, UA, MH,RME, Aurora and now the new Avid.
Old 8th March 2012
  #19
Lives for gear
 
RonT's Avatar
 

Weird, I have....

Apagoee Rosetta 800 out to Lynx Aurora with T-Connector going to Mackie d8b with T-Connector going to 192 Digital with T-Connector going to another 192 Digital with T-Connector then going to Tascam 1884 with T-Connector and Termninated at end of T....never had any problems....

I must have been doing something wrong for the last 5 years...Weird...
Old 8th March 2012
  #20
nkf
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonT View Post
Weird, I have....

Apagoee Rosetta 800 out to Lynx Aurora with T-Connector going to Mackie d8b with T-Connector going to 192 Digital with T-Connector going to another 192 Digital with T-Connector then going to Tascam 1884 with T-Connector and Termninated at end of T....never had any problems....

I must have been doing something wrong for the last 5 years...Weird...
Yes, you've done something 'wrong' which just works ...
Seriously, these things can work - nobody said otherwise. It's still not recommended and calling for (potential) problems. Word Clock distribution amps are existing for a good cause. Hopefully a capable engineer in this field will explain this one day to you.
Old 8th March 2012
  #21
I haven't experienced any problems daisy chaining. I'm running three (3, count 'em) Avid interfaces (two new HD i/o and a digi 96) running off a Digi Sync Master clock... but you can also use a Big Ben. Master out of the clock into the first interface, out/through from first HD interface into second then into the 96. then USE A BNC TERMINATOR.

My system always locks perfectly. You must be locked tight to get the most out of your interfaces. I never trust internal clocks.
Old 8th March 2012
  #22
Gear Addict
A WC distro solves ALL the potential problems that arise from daisy-chaining or T-bar'ing it.

There's an Aardsync Clock & Distro unit on eBay right now for about $400 and some change. That's rock-solid clock, as well as a distribution unit. Perhaps a bit overkill in WC outs for what you need, but not an expensive solution at all.

I'm looking to sell my Aardsync Master Clock as well, so PM me if you're interested.

Cheers,
Matt
Old 8th March 2012
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Are you guys kidding trying to sell a distribution box for only a master and two slaves? Current common practice is to have your best AD as master. I agree with "Gutr's" post here. So Forsell as master, word clock cable out of it to a T connector, one branch of the T goes to the unterminated Mytek, the other branch of the T goes to the terminated RME. The other option would be the RME gets it's clock signal from the Forsell with ADAT or AES and the Mytek has a direct WC cable from the Forsell. Given the OP has posted two weeks ago he should have had the time to try a few options to see what sounded/worked the best.
Old 8th March 2012
  #24
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Are you guys kidding trying to sell a distribution box for only a master and two slaves? Current common practice is to have your best AD as master. I agree with "Gutr's" post here. So Forsell as master, word clock cable out of it to a T connector, one branch of the T goes to the unterminated Mytek, the other branch of the T goes to the terminated RME. The other option would be the RME gets it's clock signal from the Forsell with ADAT or AES and the Mytek has a direct WC cable from the Forsell. Given the OP has posted two weeks ago he should have had the time to try a few options to see what sounded/worked the best.
T-bar'ing word clock is unreliable, at best. All it takes is for clock to drop out of sync on ONE unit for a quick moment because of a loose or intermittent connection, to have all the fun clicks and pops of units trying to recover or defaulting to a different clock master. And it's not fun when tracking with a rhythm section waiting on the floor, with the client breathing down your neck. Based on personal experience, not hypothetical scenarios.

A distro is overkill, agreed, but a dedicated WC unit will have at least 3 outs, which would satisfy the needs of the OP.

My 2-cents, and not disrespecting anyone else's opinion / advice.

Matt
Old 8th March 2012
  #25
Lives for gear
 

How can you have a loose BNC connection? Its a twist lock connector (including on T's).
Old 8th March 2012
  #26
WORD CLOCK BOX OR A coupla T's, short cable and termination, if you ain't done diddy terminator'd already

I spent $money$ on high quality ADA converters, so I gottsa good clock already

If this messy nest of one, .5 ft wire gets ho-barbed, chicken scratchy, well, I still won't need a clock box, cause I'll slum it with da SPDIF

If i'm putting a shmorgus bohorgus of clocks together on one system, in one rack, yea ok, i lika da clock box, after I give da clock a daisy.

I do done diddy daisy chain and secure them couplas!
Old 9th March 2012
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
I haven't experienced any problems daisy chaining. I'm running three (3, count 'em) Avid interfaces (two new HD i/o and a digi 96) running off a Digi Sync Master clock... but you can also use a Big Ben. Master out of the clock into the first interface, out/through from first HD interface into second then into the 96. then USE A BNC TERMINATOR.

My system always locks perfectly. You must be locked tight to get the most out of your interfaces. I never trust internal clocks.

Or you can do it the right way..Bid Ben has 6 outs...one for each..

I would highly recommend NT daisy chaining...it is not correct...I have done it and it works...but I have also crossed the road not paying attention and nt got ht by a car...but....
Old 9th March 2012
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Why add an extra step of clock regeneration with a distribution box for only two slaves if the purpose is to get as clean and fast of clock signal to those slaves? You are talking about a foot or two of BNC cable between the two converters and the shortest amount of cable between them and the RME interface.
Old 15th March 2012
  #29
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

Hey guys - thanks so much.
I ended up daisy chaining Forssell to Mytek, T connector to RME.
Worked perfectly.

The RME UFX has a very clever setting panel that tells you what's going on with the clock. If it's receiving, if it's stable and if it's in sync, when everything says sync, then you have a perfect connection.

With all due respect to the guys against daisy-chaining... This is what both Dan Lavry and Brad Johnson at Lavry recommend (I really respect those guys) if they are not gurus on the subject, I don't know who it. Also Fred Forssell recommended the exact same thing. That's good enough for me.
Old 17th March 2012
  #30
Lives for gear
 

.they sell gear remember...they are giving you a way to get by with using their gear as the master clock since they don't provide enough outputs to do modern rigs properly...did you really thing this guys would suggest NOT using their clocks as the master..

do the math...Dan Lavry can't sell you a converter and then tell you to use a Big Ben to slave it to...can he? He will always suggest that his unit should be the master...as wil Forsell...Prism etc etc

There is a reason that word clock distribution boxes exist


you are doing it wrong...I don't sell gear..
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
sanjaydas7 / Low End Theory
6
deardaddy / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
8
Prince Vision / So Much Gear, So Little Time
5
Musikvilla / High End
11
el cochino / Live Sound
0

Forum Jump
Forum Jump