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Parallel compression & phase problems
Old 9th May 2006
  #31
I also found out that an overdriven X73i input sounds awesome on parallel (drums)
"diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiistortion is your friend"
Old 9th May 2006
  #32
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

mwagener's post explains parallel processing very well.

Talking strictly from an analog board viewpoint....to those of you concerned about phase shift, the evils of eq being introduced etc......parallel compression is an effect. Effects are not supposed to be phase coherent with the original tracks. You want them to be different than the original tracks. Mix them in to "taste". Try lots of different combinations. Forget the math and theory. Enjoy.

For the ITB guys.....same situation except you gotta worry about the math.

Last edited by Rick Sutton; 9th May 2006 at 07:18 PM..
Old 9th May 2006
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener
oops, streetbeats, you beat me to it, took me a while to type the reply
heh, I wouldnt worry, more people will listen to you
Old 9th May 2006
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer
I think you mean phase cancellation, no phasing problem...Two identical waves playing together cancel each other resulting in a dramatic loss of dynamic and amplitude.
Nope.

Two identical waves will be summed resulting in increased amplitude.

Two identical waves with complete phase reversal will result in total cancellation i.e. silence
Old 9th May 2006
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert
Even if there's an auto delay in the DAW, visually aligning the parallel compressed track with the uncompressed track would be advisable. This means going into a somewhat extreme magnification and choosing a zero crossing or very clear peak and lining up both tracks to that exact moment. I personally wouldn't trust an auto delay for that.
Actually I would say you have to ensure that sample accurate time alignment ONLY if the DAW is automatically compensating for external delay.

If the DAW doesnt have that then the alignment is irrelevant - you'll just have to adjust your manually induced delays on the rest of the tracks accordingly.

(Though most times here we'd likely be using send functionality from a group/buss rather than duplicating all the parts of that group, so alignment isnt an issue)

Last edited by streetbeats; 9th May 2006 at 09:56 PM..
Old 9th May 2006
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feyshay
Thanks Streetbeats. I'm new to Cubase SX3 and still figuring out this KSP8. Up to now I was had ADAT's through KSP8 as input and output busses rather than using the external effects option. I tried what you said and it worked well.
I pinged for the delay, it detected--and voila--no delay.
I don't see this as parallel compression, though, since it seems to be sending the whole signal to the KSP8 and back (not just part of the signal like I had when I was using the Send channels in Cubase SX3).
I take it you are using the effect as an insert on the bus in question.
Try setting up a group or FX channel with the external effect inserted on that and then send the bus 100% to that group/FX channel, then adust the level of the group/FX channel to taste.

Again, keep in mind with DSP devices like the KSP, different algorithms will induce different delays, so a change in algorithm requires a re-ping
Old 9th May 2006
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60
what is pinged for the delay?
An SX3/Nuendo 3 feature to automatically evaluate the latency of an external analog chain.

Simply it 'pings' a momentary signal through the chain and times how long it takes to return...
Old 9th May 2006
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbeats
An SX3/Nuendo 3 feature to automatically evaluate the latency of an external analog chain.

Simply it 'pings' a momentary signal through the chain and times how long it takes to return...
ah
Old 9th May 2006
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moogus
Heres what I understand on this topic:

Youll always get phase shifts at different freqs when you go through any type of processing gear. This can range from shifts of a few degrees at 10hz and 100khz all the way to multiple shifts at different freqs all the way through the audio spectrum. Gear with transformers will give you more phase shifting thats less predictable than solid state designs. This is especially true of very colored mic pres. If youve ever tried running a track through a really colored transformer mic pre and then mixing it with the original, youll hear all sorts of strange phase artifacts. Thats part of the reason why these kind of designs sound so cool though.

Off the top of my head Id guess that a comp like the RNC, which has a very short solid state audio path (and isnt bandwidth limited, I think), would give you the least phase problems and something like a Mu compressor, especially older designs, will give you the most. This is because of high ratio step up and down transformers, and lots of caps as high and low pass filters in the audio path.

However none of this is relevant if you bring up the fader and it sounds good, which it clearly does to lots of you (and to me). Paralell processed tracks are rarely at equal level to the original anyway right? So youre limiting the audibility of phasing problems right there.


M
Very interesting!
The case that I had where the phasing was quite obvious was through a very colouring transformer stuffed box indeed.
It was so strong that it seemed too much at any mix-in degree. ( At least for that mix which wasn´t too defined anyway.)

Ruphus
Old 9th May 2006
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbeats
I take it you are using the effect as an insert on the bus in question.
Try setting up a group or FX channel with the external effect inserted on that and then send the bus 100% to that group/FX channel, then adust the level of the group/FX channel to taste.

Again, keep in mind with DSP devices like the KSP, different algorithms will induce different delays, so a change in algorithm requires a re-ping
BTW. The pinging seems to work even through digital connections from the DAW (Cubase) to KSP8.
Thanks again for another helpful suggestion. Having used Ableton Live, Cubase SX3 is a different (and more highly evolved) beast. The manual is like 850 pages long. It'll take a while to get an understanding of routing, etc. Your suggestions will hopefully help considerably until I understand the intricacies of this program.
I'll comment further if phasing problems continue despite your suggestions.
Old 10th May 2006
  #41
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THIS is what I was originally asking about!

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbeats
Nope.

Two identical waves will be summed resulting in increased amplitude.

Two identical waves with complete phase reversal will result in total cancellation i.e. silence
Yes, you're right, I just had my brain twisted, soooo, if I understand this right, since one signal is compressed it is NOT an identical wave and therefor will NOT result in increased amplitude or a summed signal.

Right?

If so, thanks!

If not, please correct me...and thanks!

-a

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com
Old 10th May 2006
  #42
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It wasnt you who posted that in the first place though halo?

Anyway, it will still result in increased amplitude, the amount being controlled by how much of the returned signal you blend back in the mix, but its no longer as simple as 2+2=4

I shouldnt really have used the word summed in the context that I did in that post though. Even in the case of phase reversal and complete cancellation the signals are still being summed, its just that the result is different.
Old 10th May 2006
  #43
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parallel processing on tracking? Vox and Ac Gtr are 2 that come to mind. modded dolby A card in par with the orig. squash both to one track.
The balace function on the KSP or similar would be exactly like parallel processing.
I haven't heard any issues ITB using ADC. In PT there's a compensate for hardware delay control in the i/o setup but I have never had to use it I do most of my processing, if any, while tracking. most everything else is geting it ITB.
Kik and Sn see it here, I expand, compress and eq, I have more phase issues with the mics. just the normal lot. If you use PP(para proces) on track thats part of a mult mic setup you will change the relation ship between these if you use it on only 1 part. like up and down sn or in and out kik or body and neck gtr. get things down to 1 signal before you PP
Old 10th May 2006
  #44
paralell compression

Best thing around nobody tends to teach you. Along with digital limiting, this was the beigest audio moment that ever happend to me! ..aha thats how they do it!

Especially what it does to low level stuff.. you could never raise it as much with serial compression without squashing the high level stuff to mud. I use it on everything along with paralell e.q. A lot of mastering engineers use it as well, adding a paralleled detuned stereo track, (think dr Dre etc.) Toby
Old 10th May 2006
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60
is anyone tracking with parallel compression?
if it is something you know know you will be using.
use a mult from your patchbay and go to the comp. them record both as separate tracks.
i have not tried parallel compression but i plan to.
I have tried printing the parallel compressed track, there is a phase problem ( I am sure could be time aligned). The best way is to do it is at the mix stage on your console. I have had success doing it while tracking, that worked. I still prefer waiting till the tracking is finished.
www.bluethumbproductions.com

Last edited by [email protected]; 10th May 2006 at 06:21 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #46
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Huh? Yes, it WAS/IS my thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbeats
It wasnt you who posted that in the first place though halo?

Anyway, it will still result in increased amplitude, the amount being controlled by how much of the returned signal you blend back in the mix, but its no longer as simple as 2+2=4

I shouldnt really have used the word summed in the context that I did in that post though. Even in the case of phase reversal and complete cancellation the signals are still being summed, its just that the result is different.
What I meant was, this (the above) is what I was trying to figure out and the quote this quote was referring to is about my trying to figure out whether it was a summing deal or a cancellation affect.

...unless I'm misunderstanding YOU as well, which is entirely possible

-a

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com
Old 28th January 2014
  #47
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parallel compression

I read that in analog should not occur phasing,if you issue digital com it can as latency occur due to that to happen with digitals.try inverting the phase if it gets better there you go.
i am new to it i am using a tube tech and an a klark teknik but i apply eq in daw,send out and record back in daw,i experience a little bit,i will have to experiment more and get the grip,i read about it in wikipedia he he
Old 3rd February 2014
  #48
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You can always record your smashed tracks back into your DAW. Then zoom in and examine what phase issues, if any, have occurred. Then nudge the smashed tracks until they are lined up.
JJ
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