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Tonelux/Nicerizer test Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 11th May 2006
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogus
Wow man what an amazing looking desk! I hope some of those looms are labeled!
the picture doesn't do it justice, it's overwhelming in reality. The looms on annaloge's desk are labelled, and the desk is ready and working. just the dynamics need some work, I understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moogus
I think any old mixer will need recapping, at least partially. And of course the usual switch and pot cleaning. Then there are the actual mods to either improve functionality or sound, which depends on what you arent quite happy with. Lots of old designs can be improved easily, and there are many that are almost right and with a few simple changes can be amazing. Do you have circuits for your desk? Ive seen inside a few BFE modules and from memory they were transformer balanced, with ICs for everything and a pair of output transistors driving the transformer.
This BFE has very little wear, the stepped switches are all more than ok, and the caps are also ok. as far as I know because I didn't test it yet all. I have some schematics, but not yet all of them, they have to be copied and annaloge is kind of a busy little critter as you can see Can I send you a PM about your ideas on that? An exchange of information is always welcome!
The BFE sounds pretty ok as it is, with the eqs being sharp but precise and no shrillness or whimpy woollyness in the low end. But everything (well almost everything can be improved upon) mmm ahm I have to finish the casing and wiring first anyway. the modules can be taken out-- modular so that can be done anytime.

All things aside, lets take this into a new thread when we can? I feel kinda going OT on Roundbadge's perfect summing comparison, and that was not my intention at all.
cheers

Last edited by Reptil; 11th May 2006 at 08:50 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #242
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I wish I could just get a Nicerizer and call it a day, but it's not for me. I want faders, bussing, inserts, eq's...etc. AND automation! SO for me it's the tonelux -- I need to try out at some point.
I don't have the room/money/time for maintenance for a SSL or Auotmated Neve, API etc. So right now.....Tonelux wins my affection and lust until I try it out.
thumbsup

Last edited by indie; 11th May 2006 at 08:54 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #243
Here for the gear
 

almost 0hz, around 10hz, realy low and realy high
Old 11th May 2006
  #244
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Yeah ..another big plus..Paul actually has modules,etc in stock ,ready to wire/ assemble and ship within 3 -4 weeks..I can take comfort in knowing I'd get the stuff pretty damn quick..NOT 6-8 months later

Like the Phoenix products?

heh

I know that is not what you are getting at (and I think I do know what you are getting at) so you might want to clear the good name of the folks at Phoenix, I have a feeling their product turn around time is pretty darn quick.
Old 11th May 2006
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Like the Phoenix products?

heh

I know that is not what you are getting at (and I think I do know what you are getting at) so you might want to clear the good name of the folks at Phoenix, I have a feeling their product turn around time is pretty darn quick.

Nope, definitely not the Phoenix folks..stike
you know who though..heh
Old 11th May 2006
  #246
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil
--Hi Annaloog thanks for posting those pictures-- thumbsup
and welcome to gearslutz gnigni another addiction heh
I'll start another thread when it's time.
thnx reptile, looks like an interesting place
Old 12th May 2006
  #247
yeah it's a cool place isn't it.
btw, I know you just jumped in at page 8, what do you think of the roundbadge tonelux nicerizer ITB treatment? don't peak at the answer

what do you think about analogue summing? and your experience with different systems? I'm curious for what's your opinion
thumbsup
Old 12th May 2006
  #248
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil
Can I send you a PM about your ideas on that? An exchange of information is always welcome!
The BFE sounds pretty ok as it is, with the eqs being sharp but precise and no shrillness or whimpy woollyness in the low end. But everything (well almost everything can be improved upon) mmm ahm I have to finish the casing and wiring first anyway. the modules can be taken out-- modular so that can be done anytime.


Sure you can, Ill help with ideas as much as I can. Whats the minimum Q of the BFE eqs? Maybe thats something that can be looked at. Depending on their design tho, it can be a nightmare to change Q. Well see though...

The other thing is perhaps changing opamps, but only if theres crap in there in the first place...

Thats one of the reasons why the PM2000 is so ripe for DIY, it has 990 pinout opamps that you can swap easily with many different designs. I just tried some of our 99V opamps last night for the first time and it made the channel go from APIish to Neveish (a crude comparison I know).

What are the BFE compressors like? Are they VCA comps?

M
Old 12th May 2006
  #249
The Q on the EQ (Mk3) can be switched from wide to narrow on all three bands, it's a great eq for zooming in and correction jobs, even when it's stepped. They're not bad for a broad gentle shaping, but I think other eqs are better for this. They 'bite' but in a very different way than API for instance. There are ICs inside but it is not an IC sound at all, like you'd find in an SSL or a smackie. They're closer to a Neumann eq, but with different highs.

Annaloog has Filtek Compressors. I'm not really familliar with them, but intend to use a couple of the Neumann U473a in the desk, which is great for doing invisible tightness, and put a nice sheen on, for instance a vocal part, and not so for slamming a drumbus or something like that. they're both VCA based, the Neumanns have a Neumann VCA. It can be replaced when broken, there is a company in Berlin that makes replacement parts for several Neumann units. I'm curious for the Tonelux dynamics that are around the corner, grabby dynamics on every of the 16 channels and some more smooth expander-compressor on the busses is rather nice don't you think? For the master I plan to put in NTP limiter cards. They're pretty invisible.

Some pics of the inside of the BFE Mk3 and the Neumann U473:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost....3&postcount=14
Attached Thumbnails
Tonelux/Nicerizer test-u473_open.jpg  
Old 12th May 2006
  #250
Gear Maniac
 

Ive worked on some Neumann eqs that look like that comp. They were an absolute pain to work on, I was changing resistors to change it to 1/2 db steps, but when we finally powered them up and listened they sounded really quite nice. All ICs of course. Its a pitty people are so scared of ICs and so in love with "discrete" circuits. Or at least they think they are.


M
Old 12th May 2006
  #251
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there are enouf IC designs wich sound good or very good, but one big difference between discrete and IC's is that IC's will never have the "in your face" sound like discrete designs, it generally sounds "cleaner" , and "thinnner" but some discrete designs however can sound "edgy" like the old "cadac" discrete consoles, they were damn good but edgy.
the following is not to slag ic's off but just an observation i made:

we used to have a huge amek angela , so if you were used working on a console like cadac and go AMEK with ic's then u'll know what i mean , the amek was a good console in general, many many hits were recorded on that console, but still there was a lot of unpleasant distortion audible especially in the higher region of the frequency spectrum, and especially when listening with tannoy SRM15XB monitors (you hear everything!!!), not blaming it on the ic's we updated that console with polypropylene capacitors on lot's of places in the channel strip it took me two weeks of 8 our a day soldering for 52 channels PFFFFFF!!!, after this modification the console lost a lot of it's edgy sound caused by the electrolyte capacitors, but still...still i found that i didn't had the sound i wanted and was used to, so the next upgrade was putting in next generation IC's (burrbrown OPA series) , this was a major difference!!!, with the burrbrowns wich firstly have a DC offset of several milli volts wich made it possible to eliminate several capacitors protecting the next circuit, (TL074 etc have lot's more DC ofset) , the distortion you heared at let's say 8 to 16khz was gone!!, the lowend was much and much more tight & cleaner , you'll be amazed howmuch garbage is floating around with those old TL0 series ,
so there i was with my amek hotrod going 300 m/h sounding better then ever, but still in all honesty the drummer didn't tap on my nose with his stick when he slapped the snaredrum, there is something about the material and the way IC's are build that makes em sound the way they do as goes for every catagory, tubes , transistors , ic's , and digital,

there is no reason to be scared of ic's but you have to wonder if that is the sound you want to hear nomatter the design, every catagory has it;s ups and downs, but ic's will never be "in your face" hence some people love discrete.

Last edited by Capstan Cappy; 12th May 2006 at 12:27 PM..
Old 12th May 2006
  #252
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Capstan Cappy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by moogus
Id be interested to know what the circuit topology is
hi moogus
these are the schematics of the EQ and mic-pre of my console


1 part if a 4 band eq, LC valeus differ for every band , circuit is the same





summing buss, two selected ic's with low dc offset present to get low noise.



micpre

Old 12th May 2006
  #253
A question for mr. Wolff:
I understand you're going to make a compressor this year. are there any plans to make some tonelux compressor modules as well? Can you reveal anything about how you want to make them sound? Is it going to be a feed forward or backward design or both?

thanks.
Old 12th May 2006
  #254
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan Cappy
there is no reason to be scared of ic's but you have to wonder if that is the sound you want to hear nomatter the design, every catagory has it;s ups and downs, but ic's will never be "in your face" hence some people love discrete.
I agree with you about the inherant sounds of different amp topologies. The fact is there isnt one single sound thats right for everything, although there are some that are good for 80% of what you throw at them. My favourite mic pre is discrete, but my favourite two eqs are (or can be) built with ICs, and my favourite compressor is tube surrounded by ICs.

Personally Im not a huge fan of completely solid state consoles like the Ameks (or SSL for that matter), although you can certainly do a great mix on one. I prefer transformers and transistors doing the work, with ICs doing the more menial tasks. That to me creates a nice balance between sound and function and cost etc. But its a personal thing I guess.

Its funny what you say about eliminating electro caps. We would change a TL072 to an OPA decrese noise and distortion and to lower the output Z, not to eliminate a cap. Everyone has a different perspective! Actually my all time favourite discrete opamp has a 2v offset on the output and always needs a cap in series, yet it still sounds better to me than anything.


Man thats a great looking console, I think its safe to say any cabling troubles will be well worth it!


M
Old 12th May 2006
  #255
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the byproduct of using the OPA series was the low DC offset, u kill two flies with one hit, distortion and the electrolyte cap causing phase shift, i ment both but that's beside the point, i listened back yesterday recordings i made with that amek console and i was satisfied with the results i must admit , i almost forgot how it sounded.
i have a aphex dominator 2 as a total limiter and that's an IC design but it was my favourite for total limiting and compressing go figure hehe

thnx , we did have some trouble finding how the hell the PSU was hooked up, makes you sweat i tell ya, but we got it done, can't wait to hook my MCI jh16/24 24 track and MM1000 16 track up to that console , i fact the MCI is already hooked up, so nice
does anyone have any oppinnion on the new TSCAM X-48 yet btw, thinking of buying one tbh but i'm waiting for tests and feedbacks..
Old 13th May 2006
  #256
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X-48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan Cappy
does anyone have any oppinnion on the new TSCAM X-48 yet btw, thinking of buying one tbh but i'm waiting for tests and feedbacks..
This thread has sure done some wandering.... oh well...
This product has been on the back burner for a long time! I wonder if there are some really serious problems with the design. You might find the TascamForum to be helpful, there is a small section on the X-48 that seems to have died a natural DEATH.

If you think it is hard to get information on this unreleased product just wait until you try to get information from TASCAM on a product that they have released that isn't one of there super sellers. I have been there and done that. You might look at the RADAR instead! Good luck.

http://tascamforums.com
Old 1st June 2006
  #257
Soooooooo.... Badge.... what did you end up doing?

Oh and a big fuuck because it looks like I am starting on my Tonelux system tomorrow (unless I get cold feet). For me I am going to start with a V Rack, PS, FX2, CR2 and an SM2. After that I just need 7 more FX2's, another $3000..... damn.....
Old 1st June 2006
  #258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil
A question for mr. Wolff:
I understand you're going to make a compressor this year. are there any plans to make some tonelux compressor modules as well? Can you reveal anything about how you want to make them sound? Is it going to be a feed forward or backward design or both?

thanks.
Both packages, and both types with some surprises...
Old 1st June 2006
  #259
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by moogus
The fact is there isnt one single sound thats right for everything...

i don't know that i've ever complained about the sound of old tubes doing the old tube thang. on anything.

but that's a personal taste, i admit.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 3rd June 2006
  #260
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rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=RoundBadge]
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
A and B are close enough in my book so the real question becomes can you afford the cash for the Tonelux or can you live with the limitations and the "closed" system of the N16? Really I think the A and B mixes were just splitting hairs here, both are strong and both would put a smile on my face.
QUOTE]


Well I'm digging A the most as well..
I could still easily work with the N-16's sonics..I think it's a great sounding box!
And believe me, I've tried a bunch in the past year~
The N-16 pretty much came out on top after trying the Chandler,API,Dangerous,Fulcrom earlier this year.

..I just hate the limitations of a summing only solution.
Completely inflexible.

What I really want is a small modular mixer with stellar sonics that I can take to other Daw based studios and work with confidence.

So far the The TLX stuff fits the bill.. .. really impressed me so far sonically and feature wise..
No one is doing the high end mixer thing quite this way.

Also FWITW,the TLX rig has quite a bit more gain on the outputs than the N-16.
The N-16 had to seriously push into the red to match the Tonelux' output..
[don't worry, the N-16 wasn't pushed into that for the stems]

Thanks for the participation guysthumbsup

later for nowthumbsup
i was wondering if you have ever checked out the manley mixer......
Old 3rd June 2006
  #261
Gear Addict
 
rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
I took the d-sub from one box's output and switched to the other d-sub
as I stated in the first post ..
simple comparison.no science thats all
take it for what it is.. ..with the PTitb as an after thought ..
I really wish i had more time to play with this stuff and really get tweaky but i don't ..
if I've sparked some interest one way or the other..then maybe more guys will pick up the ball and do some demoing for themselvesthumbsup
well thats what this forum is kinda all about,isn't it?.
i'd be happy to get together with some guys and do some more comparison files later on.
I look forward to hearing others opinions when they take the time for they're own tests or whatever ..
I don't usaully make it a habit of buying gear soley based on the stuff I read here[with the exception of the Germaniums! ],But it sure can help give me some ideas/direction of stuff I might wanna try out.

The Tonelux stuff is gonna work just fine for me
I have'nt read all the threads here but could you tell me what modules you are starting with your tonelux rig?
Old 4th June 2006
  #262
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

Starter setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I have'nt read all the threads here but could you tell me what modules you are starting with your tonelux rig?
I started with 16 MX2 with the direct option, 4 FX2+, SM2, & CR2. This translates into 24 total inputs, 16 of which have 4 Aux sends, and 16 channels with inserts. This is a very flexible system with 3 Audio Accessory patch bays. I have personally never had it so good, i.e. hybrid digital/analog system. Needless to say, I am very interested in the EQs, Preamps, and automated faders.
Old 4th June 2006
  #263
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[QUOTE=midnightsun I am very interested in the EQs, Preamps, and automated faders.[/QUOTE]


at that point wouldn't it just make sense to buy a console?
Old 4th June 2006
  #264
Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm
at that point wouldn't it just make sense to buy a console?

At that point isn't that what he already has?

heh
Old 4th June 2006
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
At that point isn't that what he already has?

heh

Yes it is. I wonder if you may get more for your money if you just come out and buy a console as opposed to buying each piece of the console individually. Know what I mean?
Old 4th June 2006
  #266
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BTW The Tonelux stuff is top notch that is not the debate here. My quandry is more along the lines of don't you end up paying more in the end building the digital/hybrid studio piece by piece opposed to buying a console outright.
Old 4th June 2006
  #267
"My quandry is more along the lines of don't you end up paying more in the end building the digital/hybrid studio piece by piece opposed to buying a console outright."

it depends on what console and what price range you talking about. you might pay more in the beginning, but you'll probably have less maintenance if you buy something new. after having owned a 7 ft, 700lb console, i like going into sessions knowing 98% that there aren't going to be mysterious noises coming out of my console that i have to trouble shoot in front of my clients (i own a tonelux console). nothing sucks more for me, and more importantly for the bands/musicians than having to stop a session for technical reasons.

you might save more money in the short term depending on the condition of the console, but in the end maintenance will empty your wallet not only in tech fees, but also with business if your studio has a reputation of having bad maintenance.

just my experience and opinion. good luck.
Old 4th June 2006
  #268
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RoundBadge's Avatar
[[email protected]]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge

i was wondering if you have ever checked out the manley mixer......
I have.. when it first came out a few years back..the one with 8 pre's and 8 line in's
i did'n't like what it did to the lower mids..I like manley stuff for some things but not as a mixer.
Old 4th June 2006
  #269
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[email protected]
Attached Thumbnails
Tonelux/Nicerizer test-hc-tlx-conf_3.jpg  
Old 4th June 2006
  #270
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rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

thanks for the post


So im starting to really wrap my head around the concept of the modular console and it seems a setup like yours would allow you to be flexible on the front and back ends.
if you are using it on the front end , are you using your outboard pre's going into the mx2's or just direct into your daw etc...
I'm gonna read this entire thread now to gather more info.....
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