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monitoring from phoenix nicerizer.... Summing Mixers
Old 26th April 2006
  #1
Gear Nut
 

monitoring from phoenix nicerizer....

Looking at the phoenix nicerizer it seems a monitor controller is required ( monitoring off the front jack doesn't seem right).

G5 into Rosetta 800 to nicerizer.Nicerizer o/p back to G5.But to monitor...

Any ideas? anyting that has a good 2 bus comp inc with the monitor section.

Thanks
Old 26th April 2006
  #2
The only summing device with a compressor as far as I know is the Audient Sumo.

If you want a summer with a more comprehensive monitor section how about the ADT range:

http://www.adt-audio.com/UsProducts/...lMainPage.html

Or just buy a designated monitor controller like the SPL MTC 2381:

http://www.soundperformancelab.com/mtc/mtc_D.html
Old 26th April 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
Looking at the phoenix nicerizer it seems a monitor controller is required ( monitoring off the front jack doesn't seem right).

G5 into Rosetta 800 to nicerizer.Nicerizer o/p back to G5.But to monitor...

Any ideas? anyting that has a good 2 bus comp inc with the monitor section.

Thanks
You can choose any compressor you want and patch it between the Nicer output and the input to your G5. For monitoring, I'd take the mix that goes into your G5 and take it back out again through another pair of D/A's into some sort of monitoring box. There are plenty to choose from. That way you're confidence-monitoring the additional A/D conversion and also allowing yourself the option of putting any additional plugin mastering effects on the 2-mix after it has been summed in the Nicerizer.

In my own rig, I have 16 channels of conversion each way. I keep 14 D/A channels hard patched into my Nicerizer and return the stereo output of the Nicer back into Protools. I then assign those 2 tracks to outputs 1 and 2, which is what I choose when bouncing to disc and which feeds my final 2 D/A channels which I monitor off of (through a Control 24). So, when I want to send a track to the Nicerizer, in Protools I just choose a track output that already goes there, and voila, it loops out and right back in. Or if I don't want to send it to the Nicer I just assign it to outputs 1 and 2, so it mixes digitally. It's the best of both worlds and an effortless way to work.

-R
Old 27th April 2006
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for your comments guys.Really helpful
Old 27th April 2006
  #5
Gear Nut
 

hey R,

What converters do you?

Are there any latency issues working in that way?

Thanks

j
Old 27th April 2006
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Do you use that is
Old 27th April 2006
  #7
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
hey R,

What converters do you?

Are there any latency issues working in that way?

Thanks

j
I have a Digi HD 192 and an Apogee AD-8000. They actually have different latencies, so if I'm using both I have to keep that in mind. But so far it hasn't been a problem.

-R
Old 27th April 2006
  #8
Well funny you should post this. I am looking at a Nicerizer 16 and for me the biggest limitation is the monitoring section.

First off Justin ans Shaun have been VERY very cool to deal with, class act there.

So I am not sure that the Phoenix folks want me to say this but I was just in this very dilemma and I wrote to Justin. I don't want to take an extra DA conversion to hear the 2 buss. I know I know, you should listen to the 2 track after it is layed down to the computer because the AD conversion will make changes to the mix.. I don't think that is a really big deal (not enough to justify another $1400 for a card and a DAC-1) and I am out of PCI slots on my computer for another AES16 card.....

Anyway, I spoke with Justin and Shaun and we bang'ed out a solution. They are going to get rid of the width knob (not something I would use anyway) and in it's place they are going to put in a passive attenuator. In place of the width switch they are going to make a switch that will put the passive attenuator pre or post output tranny (this is also pre or post 2 buss insert).

Problem solved..... for me at least. I can mix off the post insert / tranny side then I can monitor CD's from the computer and playback my 2 buss mixes off of the pre tranny side.

For me this is the perfect solution, just waiting for my tax check to come in and it is all mine... well.. after they build it and all.

Again I don't know if they want me to let the cat out of the bag but if you email Justin I am sure they will talk to you about it.

Old 27th April 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

RKrizman's methodology for working with the nicerizer is what inspired me to go get one. It's really an integrated, and as he said, effortless, way to work with OTB summing.
Old 27th April 2006
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Hey Michael,

Thats cool it helps in bringing down the cost of buying converters.
You are still gonna require a seperate monitor controller (aren't you?)because of the way the rear monitor o/p is linked to the tranny o/p.
What do you intend to use/buy?

Thanks

j
Old 28th April 2006
  #11
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

other than the lack of sexiness, what's the resistance to monitoring off the 1/4" jack?


gregoire
del ubik
Old 28th April 2006
  #12
Gear Nut
 

There is the lack of slutiness to it, but apart from that im gonna need a talkback section and headphone outs.
I was unsure of the power capabilities of it aswell, but on the phoenix audio site it does say it has plenty of power.

j
Old 28th April 2006
  #13
I haven't had the chance to fully test my N16 yet because my new studio is still being constructed. But I have run a few mixes through it (I've got a few bits and pieces set up in my lounge) and I absolutely love it and I must say that I'm glad I got one while the stereo width control is still featured - I'm not sure I even know what its doing, but it's great.

As for monitoring - the way I see it is that no summing device really has a good enough monitor section and I'm quite happy to keep it seperate. I want a monitor section with numerous inputs and outputs and talkback and a big main knob - so I was never expecting my summing device to incorporate all these features. The nicerizer is designed to do a job and there will always be extra bells and whistles that will appeal to various people, but I think they should keep it as is.
Old 28th April 2006
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
Hey Michael,

Thats cool it helps in bringing down the cost of buying converters.
You are still gonna require a seperate monitor controller (aren't you?)because of the way the rear monitor o/p is linked to the tranny o/p.
What do you intend to use/buy?

Thanks

j
That is exactly the point of the mod. They are going to break out the back jacks so I will have a very high quality passive attenuator in the unit so I don't have to buy a Goldpoint or what have you. This passive attenuator can be switched pre or post tranny. That will be my monitor controller.
Old 28th April 2006
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
As for monitoring - the way I see it is that no summing device really has a good enough monitor section and I'm quite happy to keep it seperate. I want a monitor section with numerous inputs and outputs and talkback and a big main knob - so I was never expecting my summing device to incorporate all these features. The nicerizer is designed to do a job and there will always be extra bells and whistles that will appeal to various people, but I think they should keep it as is.
Obviously we agree to disagree.

thumbsup

From my standpoint the whole idea of the N16 is to simulate a very very nice summing section of a high quality mixing console. It is missing the faders (not enough real estate) and it is missing the monitoring section but other than that it is really the back side of a console right?

The point of the mod that I am looking at is to add this back into the box. At that point I have pan pots, phones send, output tranny, master faders and switchable monitor section and the N16 is now the summing section of a great console.

The only thing I have to give up is the "width" knob and in my experience (YMMV) something like width is better left to the mastering stage if done at all. I am happy to sacrifice the width for a true monitoring control.

And as far as quality, I seriously doubt anything these guys are going to produce is going to be anything less than top of the line stuff and the monitor section would probably be better than most others. I trust the Phoenix folks before I trust SPL or Mackie that is for sure....

Old 28th April 2006
  #16
Oh, I see. The mod is just for you. They're not changing the design and losing the width control on all future models? Thats the great thing about companies like Phoenix, that they do things like that on request.
Old 28th April 2006
  #17
Lives for gear
 
GearHunter's Avatar
 

Many summers are not monitors and vice versa. A few things DO do both, like the SUMO. But this is why there are so many dedicated monitors popping up. There's Dangerous Monitor, API 7800 and Coleman Audio's passive stuff, and now there's one that we seem to be getting a lot of good feedback on, the SPL MTC2381. SPL Box

Your mix out from the summer goes in to the SPL's mix in, then passes out through a passive "slave-out" through-put to whatever you're mixing to. The signal also goes in to the monitor section where you have a CR volume, phones, talkback, and of course, main monitor outs.

Not a whole lotta dough, either; way below a grand.
Old 28th April 2006
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
Thats the great thing about companies like Phoenix, that they do things like that on request.



Yes very very cool folks!
Old 28th April 2006
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Hey Temas

What monitor controller will you be using.
Im looking at quite a few in varying price ranges.Im not sure what to go for.
Don't want to go cheap and not hear exactly what is coming out but money is also a factor.

j
Old 28th April 2006
  #20
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
other than the lack of sexiness, what's the resistance to monitoring off the 1/4" jack?


gregoire
del ubik
I could be wrong, but I think that jack is pre-transformer. (Actually, I'm referring to the stereo 1/4 " jack on the front--Ubik probably mneans the pair on the back, which I think are post-tranny))

Also, why set up a scenario in which you always have to patch all of your tracks through the Nicerizer, and at the same time deny yourself the option of putting any plugin processing on the resulting 2-mix.

-R
Old 28th April 2006
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
other than the lack of sexiness, what's the resistance to monitoring off the 1/4" jack?


gregoire
del ubik

Well for me I can think a of a few things. There are times when I want to listen to the transformer, like when I am mixing but other times when I want the cleanest signal I can get like when I am listening back to a mix that is already tracked or if I want to listen to a mix reference CD etc. Being able to monitor pre or post tranny is pretty important I think.

The other problem is the attenuator that is already on the machine is tied to both the 1/4 and XLR outs. If I want to monitor out of this "monitor" controller it would have to be trimmed back effecting the sound of the mix depending.

If lets say 10 o'clock is fine to send to my speakers that might only be hitting the converters at 50% or something depending. To get the bit depth on the converters I would have to push the "monitor" controller and that might be too loud to listen to.

I think of the normal "monitor" knob on the N16 as a master fader and I would never really want to control my speaker volume with the master fader that is why I wanted something else. Call this one "control room" if you wish, that is how I see it.

I think it will work very well for me.... I hope at least.
Old 28th April 2006
  #22
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Well for me I can think a of a few things. There are times when I want to listen to the transformer, like when I am mixing but other times when I want the cleanest signal I can get like when I am listening back to a mix that is already tracked or if I want to listen to a mix reference CD etc. Being able to monitor pre or post tranny is pretty important I think.

The other problem is the attenuator that is already on the machine is tied to both the 1/4 and XLR outs. If I want to monitor out of this "monitor" controller it would have to be trimmed back effecting the sound of the mix depending.

If lets say 10 o'clock is fine to send to my speakers that might only be hitting the converters at 50% or something depending. To get the bit depth on the converters I would have to push the "monitor" controller and that might be too loud to listen to.

I think of the normal "monitor" knob on the N16 as a master fader and I would never really want to control my speaker volume with the master fader that is why I wanted something else. Call this one "control room" if you wish, that is how I see it.

I think it will work very well for me.... I hope at least.
What you say is absolutely right.I don't really understand the reasoning behind the nicerizers o/p configuration.I don't understand the way the o/p's are supposed to be used.

If they were set up in the manner you suggest and with the st width control (for those that want it)It would be a bussing and monitoring solution in one great box

j
Old 29th April 2006
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
What you say is absolutely right.I don't really understand the reasoning behind the nicerizers o/p configuration.I don't understand the way the o/p's are supposed to be used.

If they were set up in the manner you suggest and with the st width control (for those that want it)It would be a bussing and monitoring solution in one great box

j

Yes although for me stereo width is not important at all, I let the ME handle that. Also (and this is no knock on the fine Phoenix folks) from the reports I have read the width control is not as cool.

I guess the way I look at that is I might use the width on a mix here or there but a high quality monitor controller will get used on every mix.

Oh and one other thing to consider. There is not a ton of space on the front panel for a width control with a control room monitor and adding the studio out to the unit as is would drive the unit cost up.
Old 29th April 2006
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
Hey Temas

What monitor controller will you be using.
Im looking at quite a few in varying price ranges.Im not sure what to go for.
Don't want to go cheap and not hear exactly what is coming out but money is also a factor.

j
Yeah I know what you mean, but my monitors are only Mackie HR824s, so nothings every gonna sound mind blowingly accurate through my set up anyway.

I think I'll go for the SPL. Its not easy to get hold of the Hearback unit over here. I really need the talkback section more than anything. When I've got the cash, maybe I'll invest in a high quality DA. Until then I'm concerntrating on the recording chain, i.e Room Accoustics - Mics - Preamps - AD, so that I can start recording a huge back log of ideas that have built up during the build of my studio.
Old 29th April 2006
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new

I think it will work very well for me.... I hope at least.
I hope so too. And in the future even if you want to expand or develope an area of the mixer which you feel needs to be better equipped, you'll be able to do that and still incorporate the N16 into your set-up.

I've already got my slutty eyes on a seperate 8-channel submixer for tracking duties (maybe a cheap SM Pro PM8 - when they finally come out), keeping the N16 solely for mixing.
Old 29th April 2006
  #26
Lives for gear
 
abit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Well funny you should post this.
I was fighting all of them in december(ask me why, I don't know

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ight=niceriser

Where I said to Shaun :
width is an EXTRA and monitoring A MUST and some other stuff.

And I was a public enemy #1.

heh
Old 29th April 2006
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by abit
I was fighting all of them in december(ask me why, I don't know

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ight=niceriser

Where I said to Shaun :
width is an EXTRA and monitoring A MUST and some other stuff.

And I was a public enemy #1.

heh
Yeah I remember all of that! You went with the 8816 in the end I believe?

I do agree to some extent that a comprehensive monitoring aspect is more 'essential' than the width feature, but lets not forget that the product is called 'Nicerizer' and one of the sweetening tools on offer is the stereo width control. Like I already said, I'm not sure I understand what its doing, but it sounds pretty cool to me and its something that no one else is offering as part of their summing products.

Does anyone know what software or hardware the N16 stereo width control is most similar to?
Old 6th May 2006
  #28
Lives for gear
 
abit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
..and its something that no one else is offering as part of their summing products

I think at least 2 years back the Mixdream was 1st who introduced ST Expander in it.
Than NS16 and 8816 now.

I would not phuk with it while mixing.
Home/or even pro mastering may benefit with this feature I presume.

On the soft part - Waves has MS tricks and Izotop - these two come to mind 1st.

Yes I got 8816 - love it.
And it has full featured monitor section in it.
Old 6th May 2006
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
I do agree to some extent that a comprehensive monitoring aspect is more 'essential' than the width feature, but lets not forget that the product is called 'Nicerizer' and one of the sweetening tools on offer is the stereo width control. Like I already said, I'm not sure I understand what its doing, but it sounds pretty cool to me and its something that no one else is offering as part of their summing products.
I believe what it is doing is combining some of the L channel information out of phase to the right channel and the R channel info out of phase to the left. The complaint that most folks have when doing this is you tend to smear the center channel and loose punch. Don't take my word that this is what they are doing but that is how I have seen it done before.

A width control would be a very special use feature that must be used with care so as not to whack your mix out, a monitor controller would get used every time the unit was turned on.

To me not having a monitor section and to include a width controller is like making a $200,000 Ferrari F430 with a lighted vanity mirror and no gear shift.... the vanity mirror might come in handy once in a while but the grear shift is kind of essential to the car.

YMMV
Old 6th May 2006
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by abit
Where I said to Shaun :
width is an EXTRA and monitoring A MUST and some other stuff.
This is 100% how I feel about the deal. Width is candy but monitoring is meat and potatoes.

Funny it seems so simple to me. I am paying almost $3000 for a box that sums my audio why should I go and spend more money to be able to listen to the summed audio? Isn't that what a console does? Sums the tracks and gives me outputs to listen to the summed audio while also sending audio to a 2 track mix down device. Isn't the N16 mimicking the summing section of a console? Then why not provide the monitor section as well?

Just does not make sense to me in my studio and with the way I work.... maybe I am missing something.
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