You named a lot of great mics, at this point if I’m going to go over $3.k for a pair I would just get another flea 47 vintage series. Plus I like the option of having cardioid & Omni. I’ve used a C24 and a akg 422 and They’re great but I’d like to be able to place them far apart in different locations I have an R88 great mic for room and OH but I’m looking for LDC’s, even tho the overheads I prefer in my room so far is an old pair of akg 451e’s, even over a pair of U87’s and 414’s but for stereo room I’d like to get a decent pair of LDC’s.

I’m going to try the Mojave’s with the fall back of knowing another flea 47 would make me happy. Although having a pair of Mojave at round $2.k give or take a few hundred wouldn’t bother me to leave them up all the time for stereo room where my flea 47 I have now I use for a lot of vocals and other stuff so I’d constantly be pulling one down. So that’s what’s making me want a cheaper pair of LDC’s. I just don’t want generic hyped top end. I do like the U89’s idea that you mentioned they’re flat sounding mics but I think I want to go new in hopes to get 2 mics that are relatively close in sound.

My drum room is a small “home set up” but I get some size out of it with the right mic placement and post treatment. Hardwood floors help too.

I put up a pair of the old original SM-81’s as stereo room mics for a session in addition to my flea 47 as mono room with the flea 47 up the center and smashed the 81’s with some compression hard panned left and right they didn’t sound bad at all but it’s time for something different.

If I may sidetrack for a moment...
How far from / close to the edge would you put a 6“ hole in a 22“ Remo Fiberskyn kick reso head?
Far enough to be able to use all tuning lugs without tearing the head. Close enough to leave enough resonating surface for the front mic to pick up.

Dead center is safest for the stated consideration of not tearing the front head. And convenient for getting a microphone inside to grab the beater attack.

JMHO, others will vary.

Got to record Peter Erskine this week. C12’s in Glynn Jonhs. 87’s on toms. D19 and 441s on snare. D12 and fet47 on kick. 4038 mono room and M50s stereo room. Had like 10 mins to dial everything in. Piece of cake.

BTW, I'll have a decaf mocha Craviotto, please.

So siiiiiick!

I love when I get to record amazing musicians. Makes the job so much easier. Beautiful set up and amazing microphones. Having one of the worlds best drummers on top of that. Must have been a good recording day. It was probably a well deserved Decaf Mocha Craviotto.

Looks like an awesome day

That must have been fun. He's got such a lovely touch.

How's the cymbal bleed into the 87s?

Maybe you can rent some U89 and see how they fare or a pair of tlm170, which has the same capsule and several polar pattern and a transformerless output (don’t worry about not having an xformer, you have plenty in your signal chain ).
I believe I’ve seen a pair of matched pair tlm170 on the GS classifieds some time ago..(I believe GS member Tourtelot, but don’t quote me on that, maybe was somebody else in the Remote Possibilities part of the forum).
(Tlm193 is the same but cardioid only and less expensive).

These are rather flat/neutral, don’t have the hyped/pushed top end (sizzling) of the akg 451 (or orher akg’s..).
if you like that maybe you should look into something brighter, like the new Austrian Audio OC818 or a pair of Lewitt LCT940 (which are tube and you could decide how much “roundness” to have with their TUBE/FET design).

These are all within a reasonable budget for the pair, even when bought new.

I’d test some candidates out before purchasing.



Cheu

Doesn't annoy me in the least. Cymbal bleed in the tom mics is part of the sound. It's about whether or not it sounds good or bad, and as you probably know, why I hate a certain mic on toms. You can't avoid bleed on drum mics The trick is to get them to all work together.

Trying desperately not to derail the thread here . . .

Just one comment on a beautiful setup and great question!!

U89s are so much better rejecting cymbal bleed than U87s. I've switched all tom capture over to U89s and am delighted with the results. Still need to make a huge cut at 325-350hz, as to be expected, but natural sound is beautiful too!

I'm a firm believer in this method as well. I've never had access to 3 U87s at once, So I really appreciate your thoughts on this.
I've never had a chance to use a U89 on drums. I THINK I used one on guitar overdubs in New York at The Bunker about 10 years ago.

Nice!

That place looks familiar... what is it?

--edit-- just realized. EW Studios.

I used 87s, not because they are my favorite, but I needed three of them, and they were available and work. I would prefer 414EB's or C37A's, but I didn't want to have to bring any mics. And honestly, it's a jazz date, and half the song was on brushes. I didn't need to get the super articulate, in your face tom sound. I just needed to be able to hear the toms, and dial in a sound in less than 10 minutes so that a bunch of double and triple scale union guys can nail it in a couple takes, and go home for the day, and the network could get it and approve it.

I went to a studio last week with a Euphonics console (egads!), Sennheiser clip on mics on toms, a 421 on the lowest tom (blech), a Beta 52 in the kick (double blech), some OH's I've never heard of, and didn't get to use outboard gear, and managed to get a really solid and usable sound. If I'm producing or engineering on an album that needs a particular sound, maybe I'll be fussier and bring stuff or insist on stuff, but you go to battle with the army you've got, make it sound pro, do it quickly, and move on to the next thing.

Thanks Cheu,
Those are more great options and I don’t mind the mics being transformerless at all. I prefer having a Cardioid & Omni pair.

After putting some thought into it. I have a few LDC’s I could turn into pairs by just purchasing one more of each and since I know these mics I feel comfortable they will suit my needs.

The mics I’m considering turning into a pairs is the Sony C37 & C48, I’ve used both as mono drum room & overhead and they do good. Having these in pairs will be great for stereo room High & Low, and a bunch of other scenarios.

Plus This way I won’t have to deal with a return if I went with something unfamiliar that didn’t work out for me. Especially being microphones with what’s going on currently.


What do you think?

This is absolutely Beautiful!

For overheads I use a pair of Mojave 201 fet mics, they sound incredible!

more like 16? cents, lol.

But honestly, that looks like you'll have options for days.. which gives me so many questions, if you'd humor me, I'd love to ask:

How many of those mic tracks make it into the final mix?

How do you handle all the phase issues from so many overhead and room mics... especially on the low end?

I see 3 overhead mics, do you do a hard LCR pan?
What are you going for with each mic?

It would probably take a while, but I'd love to know like if you went down the input list and explained the thinking behind each mic selection and position?

How much time did you spend picking drums, heads, tuning, type of sticks etc?

I have so much more I wish I knew.

Thank you.

that C12? pointed towards the snare from a distance... what is the thought surrounding that? also, what a setup.. bravo!

Coles into the Tb12? oh Man, how did it sound? what settings on the 12? how do you like the tb 12 overall when it looks like you have options?

Small room. This Rogers set sounds HUGE so the micing is for a big open lively sound.

It sounded great! Here is a track from the session with the mic/pre setup: https://soundcloud.com/drill-hall-st...rivate-pirates

(This was summed through AM7 line amps into a pair of Mitsubishi Quad 8 eqs and WA Bus comp)

I did try the Great River, but it was too mid forward. I often use a pair of 4038 through the Great River, but not today.

I love Focusrite on dynamic mics, but not so much on ribbons.

The TB12 is fast and punchy and the nickel transformer add a polish/shine to the upper midrange. The steel transformer add a little grit - more so with the 731 op amps saturating.

I use the TB12s in a myriad of different ways. I start with the 918 op amps, vintage caps and nickel transformers.

I prefer the 918 op amp over the 731 for extreme saturation. Think smashing a live drum into a phat Hip-Hop drum. I have also taken 909 kicks and used very heavy op amp saturation to destroy the sound for Gabba Techno/Speedcore. The sweet spot goes on forever and never gets to "bitty/disjointed".

I have a stereo summing channel that starts through the Great River and then the TB12s - this is gold! Add loading to the GR and a little 918 saturation... then hit a VCA or FET compressor hard in parallel.

I have a lot of Warm Audio outboard (not mics) and this, I feel, is the best of the bunch.

Cheers!

I just had a tracking session with one of the best session drummers in town Reinhardt Melz. We did a variety of genres so he set up a lot of cymbals so we wouldn’t have to switch them out between songs. I was trying out the Josephson e22 on snare and I’m very impressed.

Kick - MD421 U5 - Vintech x73i - dbx160VU
Subkick - CraneSong Flamingo - Electrodyne 511
SnTp - Josephson e22 - Vintech x73i
SnFX - Placid Audio Carbonphone RU80 - CraneSong Flamingo
SnBt - EV 635a - Neve 33115
Crotch - AEA R84 - Langevin AM16
Toms - Audix D2 - Avalon M2 - SSL 611
OHS - Neumann KM84’s - Brent Averill Neve 1272
Hihats - Mesanovic Model 2A - Neve 33115
Room Mono - Josephson C705 - Langevin AM16

Heyba, neighba. Thank you for always offering the most interesting and intriguing ideas about drum tracking. This time I'm wondering, what does placing the R84 in the crotch position add to the overall depth and tenor of your drum track? I have never tried this before, but now it's a must.

Thanks for the kind words! Almost any mic works in that position. But I tend to favor fig-8 ribbon mics because they reject the ride cymbal the best and have a sound that holds up when you lovingly distort and/or compress the crap out of! In fact though, if I had only one mic to capture the whole kit, that’s where I’d place it. You actually get a nice balanced and very punch capture if the whole kit, with more low-end than I usually know what to do with. But in the context of a full array of mics, my usual approach is to hpf it, then either smash it with an 1176 with 4:1 and 20:1 buttons in, fastest release and attack at 12°clock and input/output set to taste or to smash it with an SSl channelstrip where I similarly hpf first (split button on the filter section) and then dime the ratio and threshold knobs and select fast attack and fastest release. Pushing some 1-2khz into that compression can really draw out some tone on the snare, while I’ll expound on shortly. The other one I like is the Avid White Boost plugin. I’ll turn up the gain knob, and play with the bass and treble settings. Sometimes I’ll get crazy and add more input gain even after the gain knob is maxed out. Works better on slow tracks with not too many cymbals. But you can use any distortion plugin, or an amp sim. Sansamp rules. Avid lofi works too, with an eq in front of it.

Let’s talk about snare - most folks seem to think that the snare top mic is responsible for getting the main tone of a snare drum when recording drums. In my book this is false, and a mic in the typical snare top spot is a poor means to get actual tone. What you get there is the low-end from proximity and also the attack, but nothing substantial in between. But the “tone” part of a snare drum that makes it sound different from other snares and gives a drum its character lives in the midrange. The crotch mic, which is not looking at either of the heads, but rather at the shell offers up an incredible way to draw out that tone. With either or both compression and distortion and some EQ you can dial in as little or as much of that tone as you want, which will make the snare really “pop” or “bark” or ring out, depending on what you need or do. Go listen to “One Headlight” by the Wallflowers or “Belief” by John Mayer. That snare tone ain’t from an SM57 or whatever they used on snare top position.

Wow, fantastic information! Thank you so much taking the time to elaborate. I spent all afternoon yesterday trying to nail a certain drum track, and now I'm scrapping everything to go back to square one. I've got to hear what that R84 in the crotch position can do. (I wasn't perfectly happy with the results of yesterday's session anyway.) Rock and roll!

It’s been a while...
OHs 2x Brauner Phanthera/SPL GoldMike(1st gen.)
Kick in EV RE20/API512C
Kick out Neumann TLM193/API512C
Snare top Neumann KMS105/API3124/Kush Electra
Snare bottom Sennheiser MD441 w. hi lift engaged/API3124
Toms 2x Beyer M88/API3124
Center of kit Beyer M160/Manley Voxbox
Room 2x Gefell UM70S in omni /D.A.V. BG1
Roland triggers on kick & snare/Palmer passive DI/direct to interface
P.S. I set those triggers up for utility (gating, samples, etc.), but the one on snare turned out to be the perfect sidestick mic with its nasal mid focussed sound.

I’m at Tucker Martine’s studio Flora Recording and Playback for a 10 day session. The studio is insanely cool and there’s more gear than I know what to do with and even a real echo chamber. We’re switching a lot of gear out from song to song but here’s the basic setup we begun with on drums:

KickIn - D112 or M88 - Avedis MA5 - API560
KickOut - U195 - Console - API560
SnTp1 - KM84 - Console
SnTp2 - Unidyne III - Neve 1064
SnBt - MD441 - Console
Hats - KM86 - Capi VP28
Ride - KM86 - 33105
Crotch - RCA 77 - x73 - 1176
Toms - e22S - Console - SPL Transient Designer
OHS - U67- Console - 670
RmStereo - R88 - Console - 1178
RmMono - M49 - Console - SpecterSonics Model
610

I’m not using every mic on every song but this setup gives us the most options. The Console is an API Legacy with 212L pres and 550L EQ’s. Everything is going into a Burl Mothership.

Very nice!
I can imagine that that is a fun space to get great tones!!
I always wondered why the api 212 are not more popular (since they put them in their flagship consoles), and also why the 200 series didn’t boom (yet)..

I understand that is smaller and there’s less space to deal with, BUT a simple hp/lp filter, great sounding 2 band eq’s, or a simple compressor (like the 225) could be done (as api proves) and in today environment a small 10x2 mini console made with these modules could be a very cool thing..

How do you find the 212 compared to their (more popular) 512?
(or compared to the MA5.. which of course is a different beast but I see more and more of them lately.. finally )



Cheu

Always a pleasure seeing your set-ups. Really! Thanks for contributing so much to this thread!

R.