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Apogee Big Ben
Old 6th October 2011 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian View Post
No matter what anyone might hear, the difference is so incredibly subtle. What you are hearing is an increase in jitter. We buy great converters to reduce the amount of jitter in the chain and while someone else may prefer the sound of increased jitter, thinking that it will somehow improve your conversion or the quality thereof is incorrect.

Most listening tests that were done in a properly controlled environment had an outcome of no one accurately being able to tell which was which. This is what I mean by an incredibly subtle difference.

My best advice is not to waste your money on an external clock unless you need clocking functionality like pull up/down or have tons of digital devices that necessitate an external clock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian View Post
Again, you might like the difference in sound, as subtle as that difference might be, but it will never be better jitter-wise.
Same converter...
$1700usd Clock...: Saw wave 5KHz @ 44.1kHz.

RME SteadyClock(TM) Jitter: Saw wave 5KHz @ 44.1kHz.

original file...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...s-dac-test.wav


My advice... buy the best clock... if you cannot hear the difference, buy a shotgun and put in in your mouth. LOL
Old 6th October 2011 | Show parent
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian View Post
And as a side note, the internal clock on the Aurora is measurably better (on the measurement machines) than the C777 clock
.../... to claim that the Aurora's clock isn't as high end as the Apogee is simply not the case. The two are very close to one another with the Aurora edging it out on the bench measurements.

the SynchoLock(TM) or 3000:1
sounds ok in the highs... but the mids have a weird image...

the lows are not as deep & big as my other clocks.

also it`s very sensible like most to AC power.

the AES16 has same SynchoLock(TM) as the Aurora...
one of the Motherboards i have: MSI X58 Eclipse SLi, has High Precision Timers setting in the BIOS, activated or dissabled, affects the SynchoLock(TM).
Old 8th October 2011 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
nonsuchpro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
the SynchoLock(TM) or 3000:1
sounds ok in the highs... but the mids have a weird image...

the lows are not as deep & big as my other clocks.

also it`s very sensible like most to AC power.

the AES16 has same SynchoLock(TM) as the Aurora...
one of the Motherboards i have: MSI X58 Eclipse SLi, has High Precision Timers setting in the BIOS, activated or dissabled, affects the SynchoLock(TM).
So in your opinion will the big ben be an improvement?
Old 8th October 2011 | Show parent
  #34
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball_kid View Post
The Apogee Ensemble clocked to the Big Ben has a VERY noticeable increase in image resolution. Maybe with the Burl or Latte you're not going to hear much, or it could be worse, but unless you're in the highest echelon of converter the Big Ben is generally speaking, a good ally to have on your converter team.
If I bought a clock to clock a converter from the same company to make it sound better, I would want my money back.
Old 9th October 2011 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Lt View Post
If I bought a clock to clock a converter from the same company to make it sound better, I would want my money back.
If Apogee put the Big Ben into the Ensemble, it would've sold for $800-1000 more. Which means it would be suddenly competing against the Burl and its ilk. There's nothing wrong with a modular system. For people that don't want a high-end clock, the Ensemble is a great value as-is.
Old 10th October 2011 | Show parent
  #36
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball_kid View Post
If Apogee put the Big Ben into the Ensemble, it would've sold for $800-1000 more. Which means it would be suddenly competing against the Burl and its ilk. There's nothing wrong with a modular system. For people that don't want a high-end clock, the Ensemble is a great value as-is.
My point is that they should be able to nail the clocking in their converters and interfaces such that the sonic performance is equal to having the device clocked externally by a Big Ben. It should be the same clock, people.
Old 10th October 2011 | Show parent
  #37
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Lt View Post
My point is that they should be able to nail the clocking in their converters and interfaces such that the sonic performance is equal to having the device clocked externally by a Big Ben. It should be the same clock, people.
The Ensemble has the Intelli-Clock, which is a crystal clock, also used in the Rosetta 200/800. The Ad/da16x and Now Symphony I/O, all use the Big Ben clock, which is a DDS clocking mechanism. However, the Symphony I/O's clock was optimized for the unit's higher performance, so it has been improved inside the circuit. To my ear, the Symphony I/O's clock changes my R200 quite significantly.
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsuchpro View Post
Test done at Mercenary Audio
The bottom on the Apogee became clearer and tightened up (just like you read about in Apogee's marketing) and the Aurora's bottom became more focused with better detail. The high end imaging of the Rosetta took a quantum leap forward and the Aurora's stereo imaging spread out an extra few inches.
We were remarkably impressed with the differences... they're both really good units, but with the Big Ben, they're really amazing. -- Fletcher
Yep, I've been saying that for years. A good clock makes a tangible difference.
Old 11th October 2011
  #39
I'd say you don't need an external clock just for one converter. If you'd have several units (several converters and other digital gear like effects) then you should get a central clock.
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #40
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GoldMember's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
The Ensemble has the Intelli-Clock, which is a crystal clock, also used in the Rosetta 200/800.
Ensemble & Rosetta are Wideband FIFO Buffer.
First In First Out
locks & syncs really fast to an external clock.

RME SteadyClock(TM) is DDS (can be dissabled)
MOTU MK3 is DDS
Aadvark aadrvsync 2 is DDS
Mutec iClock is TCXO or VCXO & DDS
BigBen is DDS

Lynx SynchroLock(TM) seems to be a very slow PLL & VCXO.(can be disabled)

Drawmer M-Clock are TCXO + Analog Digital Hybrid circuit + 4x SRC in the M-Clock DMS-1, or 2x SRC in the DMS-5, or no SRC in the M-Clock Lite.
Grimm Audio cc1 are custom made TCXO + Analog Digital Hybrid circuit + 1x SRC.

Teac Esoteric are OCXO & DDS. (has 10MHz sine "Atomic" input.)

Antelope OCX is OCXO controlled DDS 3rd Gen. (has 10MHz sine input.)
Antelope Trinity is OCXO controlled DDS 4th Generation. (has 10MHz sine input.)

Rosendalh nanoclocks & hd are VCXO & DDS.

Lavry CrystalLock(TM) it's a Memory Buffer...
010101010 get in the Memory chip, and when Memory is full, outputs the 010101010 like a cappacitor.
locks slow, depending on memory size. (cannot be bypass)

Benchmark DAC1 & CraneSong HEDD 192 are S.R.C.
(Hedd192 dac rev.5 s.r.c. can be disabled/bypassed "low latency mode".)

Mytek, BLA seem to be a custom XO, Mytek probably has SRC too. (cannot be dissabled)

Forssell MADC-2 has SRC with 2x XO. (cannot be disabled)
Drawmer A2D2 also SRC with 2x XO. (cannot be disabled)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
The Ad/da16x and Now Symphony I/O, all use the Big Ben clock, which is a DDS clocking mechanism. However, the Symphony I/O's clock was optimized for the unit's higher performance, so it has been improved inside the circuit. To my ear, the Symphony I/O's clock changes my R200 quite significantly.
clocks need super clean power...
there is component to component contamination...

the more chips the more contamination.... unless very special measures are taked.
the AD16x & DA16x electric circuit it's more contaminated than the BigBen. = Big Ben is better stand alone...

Symphony I/O seems to have improved that, but i don't like the sound of the analog circuit design. (personal taste)
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
well a big ben is $1000 a used UA2192 is only 2k and is a classic piece of gear
in 5 years it will still hold it's value because it has a signature sound. Same with Burl and Latte.

All other A/D D/A will be basically worthless.


Uh I don't think so bud...very familiar with BB and 2192...got rid of 2192..kept BB....BB improves auroras for sure...YMMV of course
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #42
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GoldMember's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Lt View Post
My point is that they should be able to nail the clocking in their converters and interfaces such that the sonic performance is equal to having the device clocked externally by a Big Ben. It should be the same clock, people.
Money, Food & Electric services should be free.
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #43
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GoldMember's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsuchpro View Post
So in your opinion will the big ben be an improvement?
depends on what converters are you using...
depends on what AC power you have. clean? off the wall?.

but with good AC, good cables...
... testing my M-Clock vs. BB,
i like M-Clock better...
more bass, more analog, more dynamic.

for example:
Drawmer is true AES11-2003 Grade-1 Clock.
Apogee Big Ben is not...

Drawmer calibrated to <1ppm @ 20°C-28°C =
44.1000 / 48.0000 / 88.2000~88.2001 / 96.0000~96.0001 / 176.4001* / 192.0001~191.9997**Outputs 5&6.
Apogee BigBen:
44.1002 / 48.0003 / 88.2004 / 96.0005 / 176.4010 / 192.0015




take a listen:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...-24bit-dry.wav
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...-24bit-dry.wav


the reason im selling my M-Clock it its because i want to buy a gr!mm audio cc1.
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
Money, Food & Electric services should be free.
As long as someone else is paying for it.
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
Gee, you know your clocks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
Ensemble & Rosetta are Wideband FIFO Buffer.
First In First Out
locks & syncs really fast to an external clock.

RME SteadyClock(TM) is DDS (can be dissabled)
MOTU MK3 is DDS
Aadvark aadrvsync 2 is DDS
Mutec iClock is TCXO or VCXO & DDS
BigBen is DDS

Lynx SynchroLock(TM) seems to be a very slow PLL & VCXO.(can be disabled)

Drawmer M-Clock are TCXO + Analog Digital Hybrid circuit + 4x SRC in the M-Clock DMS-1, or 2x SRC in the DMS-5, or no SRC in the M-Clock Lite.
Grimm Audio cc1 are custom made TCXO + Analog Digital Hybrid circuit + 1x SRC.

Teac Esoteric are OCXO & DDS. (has 10MHz sine "Atomic" input.)

Antelope OCX is OCXO controlled DDS 3rd Gen. (has 10MHz sine input.)
Antelope Trinity is OCXO controlled DDS 4th Generation. (has 10MHz sine input.)

Rosendalh nanoclocks & hd are VCXO & DDS.

Lavry CrystalLock(TM) it's a Memory Buffer...
010101010 get in the Memory chip, and when Memory is full, outputs the 010101010 like a cappacitor.
locks slow, depending on memory size. (cannot be bypass)

Benchmark DAC1 & CraneSong HEDD 192 are S.R.C.
(Hedd192 dac rev.5 s.r.c. can be disabled/bypassed "low latency mode".)

Mytek, BLA seem to be a custom XO, Mytek probably has SRC too. (cannot be dissabled)

Forssell MADC-2 has SRC with 2x XO. (cannot be disabled)
Drawmer A2D2 also SRC with 2x XO. (cannot be disabled)



clocks need super clean power...
there is component to component contamination...

the more chips the more contamination.... unless very special measures are taked.
the AD16x & DA16x electric circuit it's more contaminated than the BigBen. = Big Ben is better stand alone...

Symphony I/O seems to have improved that, but i don't like the sound of the analog circuit design. (personal taste)
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Nut
 
...Jazz!,'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian View Post
No matter what anyone might hear, the difference is so incredibly subtle. What you are hearing is an increase in jitter. We buy great converters to reduce the amount of jitter in the chain and while someone else may prefer the sound of increased jitter, thinking that it will somehow improve your conversion or the quality thereof is incorrect.

Most listening tests that were done in a properly controlled environment had an outcome of no one accurately being able to tell which was which. This is what I mean by an incredibly subtle difference.

My best advice is not to waste your money on an external clock unless you need clocking functionality like pull up/down or have tons of digital devices that necessitate an external clock.
+ 10!

for one converter, adding an external clock will add jitter and change something but won't better the sound quality.

Is your mid high as smooth and the image as clear as without the big ben?
Old 11th October 2011 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
thedigitalgod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ...Jazz!, View Post
+ 10!

for one converter, adding an external clock will add jitter and change something but won't better the sound quality.

Is your mid high as smooth and the image as clear as without the big ben?
image clearer with big ben on aurora here, top end about the same, low end tighter.
Old 12th October 2011 | Show parent
  #48
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
Money, Food & Electric services should be free.
I appreciate your knowledge of the specs (at least) of clocks, but if you're inferring from my comment that I'm asking for something for nothing, that couldn't be further from the truth. I can understand that the effects of an external clock COULD better an internal one (despite the basic facts about PLLs, etc), but another poster was extolling the virtues of an Apogee clock to fix the transgressions of another—newer—Apogee product. I found that part of the whole clock debate to be ludicrous.
Old 12th October 2011 | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball_kid View Post
The Apogee Ensemble clocked to the Big Ben has a VERY noticeable increase in image resolution. Maybe with the Burl or Latte you're not going to hear much, or it could be worse, but unless you're in the highest echelon of converter the Big Ben is generally speaking, a good ally to have on your converter team.
This is my experience as well - with the same set up. It's awesome!

Gotta say, Kittonian, your advice on clocks does not match my experience at all. I do not think you are correct about the clocks - they really do improve the image and detailing.

I once had a MOTU unit and using an external high end clock was a very surprising improvement to me.

I am adding an RME Multiface 2 to my Ensemble with Big Ben. It will be interesting to here the differences.
Old 12th October 2011 | Show parent
  #50
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GoldMember's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Lt View Post
I appreciate your knowledge of the specs (at least) of clocks, but if you're inferring from my comment that I'm asking for something for nothing, that couldn't be further from the truth. I can understand that the effects of an external clock COULD better an internal one (despite the basic facts about PLLs, etc), but another poster was extolling the virtues of an Apogee clock to fix the transgressions of another—newer—Apogee product. I found that part of the whole clock debate to be ludicrous.
Newer does not mean better.
i remember when i purchased e-mu 1820m
it had the same chips as the digi192io..
or when i purchased rme hdsp9632, because it has a digital clock!
both 192khz!

i was testing them, but they sounded strange... not what i was specting...
didnt blew me away,
i still had an Alesis ai-2 arround,
connected & it blew me away,
like night & day...
after that amazing moment
i felt a conflict...
between my ears & my way of thinking.

it was so hard to understand could not accept
days thinking, why? i like jitter?
"older it`s worse, must be" i like worse? "new is better, no doubt" better sounds worse?
"digital is better, it`s digital",
"older clock must have more jitter"
"jitter sounds better?"

but i was wrong... so wrong...

thank god i have good ears.

i like worse?
how could this be?
Old 13th October 2011
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

I use 3 aurora 16's clocked by a big ben. Before the big ben, I was getting clicks on all three units. I spent nearly two weeks on the phone with Lynx tech support trying to figure out what the problem was without any success. The minute I brought a big ben and connected to my setup, all problems went away.
Old 14th October 2011 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neve8128 View Post
I use 3 aurora 16's clocked by a big ben. Before the big ben, I was getting clicks on all three units. I spent nearly two weeks on the phone with Lynx tech support trying to figure out what the problem was without any success. The minute I brought a big ben and connected to my setup, all problems went away.

there you go...

the problem with folks having a problem with external clocks is that in most cases in most studios, project or otherwise, there is going to be an external clocking situation...as soon as you have two pieces of digital recording gear you have two clocks and one has to be clocked externally....ie even an aurora 16 with an AES 16 setup there is an external clock happening...either the card is clocking the converter or the converter is clocking the card...multiple 192's in an HD rig...same deal

Pick a clock that is stable and suits your rig...and go with that...a dedicated one is the way to go IMO because with lots of outputs your rig can expand easily...the BB is great for this
Old 14th October 2011 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 

At my studio- 2 digi 192s. And the main studio I work from when not at mine- 2 192s with a big ben. I also worked for YEARS on the same system before we got the big ben.

I think its all a load of hooey and won't be buying a big ben any time soon... And there NO QUESTION if I had a gun to your head and played back two rigs side by side blind, one with a big ben and one without, and your life depended on being able to pick the big ben system consistently- you would die.

That Mercenary Audio response is comedy. Again, gun to head, blind test, they would all be dead. It is what it is.

I also have a Lavry black A/D- now that sounds MUCH better to me. Gun to the head better...
Old 17th October 2011 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by McDingus View Post
At my studio- 2 digi 192s. And the main studio I work from when not at mine- 2 192s with a big ben. I also worked for YEARS on the same system before we got the big ben.

I think its all a load of hooey and won't be buying a big ben any time soon... And there NO QUESTION if I had a gun to your head and played back two rigs side by side blind, one with a big ben and one without, and your life depended on being able to pick the big ben system consistently- you would die.

That Mercenary Audio response is comedy. Again, gun to head, blind test, they would all be dead. It is what it is.

I also have a Lavry black A/D- now that sounds MUCH better to me. Gun to the head better...
I really think that it's quotes like this that confuse those trying to understand the whole thing.

If you have TWO Digi 192's, then ONE of them is clocking from an external clock...being the one in the first one...the point is that most situations involve an external clock whether you like it or not...so the idea is to pick a good one, and IMO, pick one that allows your system to grow easily...and that would be a Big Ben IMO.


Point Dieux my friend....the Big Ben is noted by many as making an audible improvement to 192's specifically...

I'll bet you $1000 I could tell the BB from the digi every single time...with a "real" multitrack sesion.

If you play "Peg" through your PT rig and change the clock, most won't notice much if anything...nor should we. Clocks make a diference but not the gulf of Mexico huge.
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