The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
UM70 vs 414eb? Condenser Microphones
Old 18th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

UM70 vs 414eb?

On the recomendation of others I am looking at a vintage UM70. My current locker also includes AKG 414eb mics. From the reviews of the UM70, what they are describing sounds similar to what I hear from my 414's. Can someone who has used both give me their impression of these two mics are?

Thanks,
Joe
Old 18th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Lee Cardan's Avatar
 

Hi Joe

Sorry I don't have much to offer regarding your question
But I have a pair of UM70 capsules with MV692 bodies, going to be using them today for the first time

Just wanted to tell you a few things:

Currently, gefell sell UMT70S
which is a UM70 capsule, transformerless body (denoted by the T), and low noise circuitry (denoted by the S)

Previously, they sold UM70S
This is UM70 capsule, body with transformer, and low noise preamp circuitry

Prior to that, they sold bodies and capsules not necessarily as a single thing, they were mix and match

The bodies I know of are:
MV690 - not sure of the details
MV691 - transformer preamp only
MV692 - transformer preamp with HPF and pad
M582 - valve body with transformer - although it needs to be modified to accept the UM70 capsule (M and MV were a different series, or something, but Gefell do this mod so it's perfectly doable)

There's a bunch of capsules out there, M70, M93, M94, UM70 that suit the MV bodies (screw on adapter). And a bunch more for the M582 body - M62, M58 although these use a different fixing mechanism hence the mod for a valve body for UM70

So if you're comparing something to the 414, I guess it would be:
MV692 + UM70

Hopefully I haven't just bored you with a bunch of stuff you already know
But it's good to have this info here for future readers, took me a while to get my head around this!

One more thing, the MV bodies aren't usually P48 ready unless they've been modded or have XLR inputs on them (which will read MV692 P48 on the side)

Gefell and other people can do this, or you can buy power supply cables that will do it, or run it off an old power supply - which some of reputably contain a dodgy preamp that should be bypassed


Well, have fun, good luck with the hunt

And in fact, just get both
Old 18th September 2011
  #3
Lives for gear
 
popmann's Avatar
I have both sitting right here. Polar opposites. Yin to the Yang. The Gefell is mid forward--not as honky as an 87AI, though...and the 414eb is mid scooped, but not as much as the newer ULBS.

I don't know what you're looking for...between the two (and the sm7) I've been able to handle any vocalist that's walked through here.

...FWIW...do you have an SM7? Reason I ask--for close mic'd vocals, the Gefell sounds very similar with more condensery "air". So, if you're one of those people who doesn't think the Sm7 is a good vocal mic, I wouldn't buy the Gefell.
Old 18th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 
popmann's Avatar
Sorry...also note, my Gefell is the UM70S I think. Never used an older non XLR one...but, I HAVE used the new transformerless ones Gefell sells--different beast.
Old 18th September 2011
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

Thanks guys. I think I have the history straight on the UM70 with 692 body. So ying to the yang. I would not call my 414s scoped...but I think I see where you are going Popman. The mids are going to be different between the two mics. I would think the Um70 will have a smoother or silky top.

I do not have an SM7. For no particular reason at all. I just haven't had a need for one. How does the SM7 compare to say a RE20? Both are used in broadcast and recording. I have heard you praise the SM7 for many years. Maybe I will grab one if the right deal comes up.

Joe
Old 19th September 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 
popmann's Avatar
Re20 is a different sounding beast. Not better/worse...unless it IS... It's less linear--I think there's a "anti smoker grit" midrange notch in there somewhere. So, it's more one of those "it will work great or it won't".

Never really understood the term "silky high end"- the Gefell is more strident in it's "air", where that's where the AKG is really linear. If you boost the heck out of both with an EQ, they are TOTALLY different up top. The AKG is much more pleasant if you wanted to do that.

Also a note...when my voice gets ragged after a long session--the 414eb doesn't pick up that grit...the Gefell does-and emphasizes it. There's just much more detail in the mids/upper mids with the Gefell.

There's way more in the low mids/lows with the AKG, too, up close--the Gefell has very little proximity effect until you EAT it. Makes it GREAT for amp mic'ing...I generally go--Royer 121...if that's not got the midrange it needs for the context, I'll put the Gefell down in Fig8.
Old 19th September 2011
  #7
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Agreed with popman. The UM70 and C414's are very different. I rarely pull out my 414B-ULS's. But am CONSTANTLY using the UM70's. (Almost every session)
Old 19th September 2011
  #8
BULS is not on the same level quality-wise as an EB IME, and they don't have the same kind of sound either. The BULS is much more mid thick and sounds a bit hazy to my ears (even up against other mid thick mics), the EB is more airy with a clearer midrange.
Old 19th September 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 

I use my 414EB with brass ring CK12 alongside a pair of UM70s pretty much every day. They are very different.

UM70 definitely an upper-mid forward sound. Very present, but not exactly "airy". The EB is smoother in the upper mid, and has a more extended top. Often a vocalist that sounds fantastic on one, sounds like absolute crap on the the other. They complement each other very well, but are not close to interchangeable IMO...
Old 19th September 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
My gefell/akg combo is a bit different, but fits the description made here. I have CMV563/M7 and UM57 and C414EB (non-brass capsule).

AKG is cleaner with less midrange around 1-4kHz or so. It feels a bit low res and has quite low output compared to gefells. But on the other hand it has great bass and lowmid. It is thick and clean.
Whenever I want to tame something bright and peaky, it works... almost like some dynamic mic . Too much hi-mids in the singers voice? Can tame that again. Something that needs solid bass, c414 here we go...

CMV563/UM57 gets used where midrange is the focus. Not that it doesn't have bass, but it's (at least in the case of my mics) smeared. Now there are instruments where c414 sounds a bit fake and CMV natural. On things with full midrange CMV gets subjectively brighter than my c414, but then there are some things where c414 is brighter because of less air HF rolloff. I think there is more resolution in midrange/hihgs in CMV than in C414 with teflon. My guess is CK12 would change this considerably, but does it have comparable low-end response? Some samples I've heard seem to indicate I may prefer later capsules for it's bass, but not for much else.
Old 19th September 2011
  #11
Both are microphones I would keep around. I have an old 414 here, and it sounds great. I hear it as a lighter and brighter sound. It can sound HARSH through some preamps, but sounds smoother into my tube amps. I would MUCH rather have a vintage UM70s, or even better the modern iteration [the UMT70s] than this here C414, as the Gefell's are in the league of extraordinary gentlemen and those suckers are singing music.
Old 19th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
andychamp's Avatar
I have both an "old", one-piece UM70, a modern modular one as well as the current C414XL-S.
While I'd consider them to be in the same wide ballpark, they do have distinct personalities.
The MGs are vibey, without sacrificing precision, while the AKG to me sounds a bit analytical while still maintaining a certain "friendliness".
Kinda like approaching the same spot from different sides.
EDIT: maybe the newer, transformerless MGs and older, transformer-equipped AKGs sound even closer?
Old 19th September 2011
  #13
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
using both here.brass ring eb's and a um70
um70:great mid focus/clarity.
for me basically living on gtr amps.
..eb's: more full bodied-great all purpose..on overheads,etc
Old 19th September 2011
  #14
Gear Head
 
Lo-Fi's Avatar
 

both here too (vintage um70s - non-modular and 414eb non-brass capsule). Both are great but I'd go for the Gefell first if forced to choose ymmv
Old 19th September 2011
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

Thanks one and all for the information. Yep...sounds like I need one or even a pair of UM70s. My AKG 414EB's are nice mics for sure. I always thought of them as just a nice clean mic. Nothing super special...which makes them special. Sort of a work horse mic. Sounds like the UM70's will be more mid focused and may be just want the doctor ordered to get things like an accoustic guitar to sit in the mix just right.

Thanks
Joe
Old 20th September 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
andychamp's Avatar
@Roundbadge: do you ever run into volume issues with the MGs on gtr. amps?
Old 20th September 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 
cinealta's Avatar
 

Not even close. The Gefell crushes the 414.

The Gefell is beautiful sounding, with character and a mid-forward Neumann soundprint (subtle not honky). In direct, head-to-head shoot outs, I found the 414 devoid of character, almost a neutral straightwire. Great if you're recording Baroque cello and don't have any B&K's handy, or your voice sounds like Sting, but altogether very ordinary.

OTOH, the Gefell has an unquantifiable charisma. There's just something very sweet about it, especially for vocals. Routinely beats even a U87 for me.
Old 20th September 2011
  #18
Gear Nut
 
contrattore's Avatar
 

i like umt70 s. then buy a nice ribbon and a nice dynamic (or a few different) and you can record anything with great results
Old 20th September 2011
  #19
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
@Roundbadge: do you ever run into volume issues with the MGs on gtr. amps?
not yet.but been tracking at moderate amp levels since I got it.
lots of little amps..supro,vibro champ,silvertones etc
cracked half stack? not sure yet
Old 20th September 2011
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Question: Joe, why do you have my console as your avatar? I had to check this morning if it was stolen. well. It wasn't.

Aye,
Pelle
Old 21st September 2011
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

Not sure where I got the avatar from...I have used it for years here. I wish it were mine.
Old 21st September 2011
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

Thanks everyone. It looks like my trade deal is going thru and I should have the mic this weekend (if I am lucky)..


In another post I listed my current mic selection. My issue is I am going to be moving and can only take a small rig with me. So I have downsized my recording rig to just the interface, a few preamps etc. My future recording will be mostly acoustics, dobro, maybe some standup and of course vocals. From time to time drums and electrics...but I do not for see that in the real near future. i do not see a regular recording space in my future either. Maybe on-location recording in intimate settings, or the occasional livingroom etc.

here is what I have for mics:

*Peluso 2247 short body with a vintage Telefunken tube that tames the harshness
*very early Neumann KM84 (tuchel connector)
*Pair of vintage AKG 414EB- P48
*incoming early Gefell UM70 (tuchel connector adapter cord)
*Re20
*Several SM57s and 58s
*E609
*MXL 990 pair
And a dynamic mic kit for drums.
Old 21st September 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
I would MUCH rather have a vintage UM70s, or even better the modern iteration [the UMT70s]
So, Adam, do you actually prefer, in general, the UMT70s to the UM70? I don't think I've ever heard anybody else say that. I have a pair of UMT70s's that I love, but I've never heard the older transformer model so I can't make a comparison.
Old 21st September 2011
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
So, Adam, do you actually prefer, in general, the UMT70s to the UM70? I don't think I've ever heard anybody else say that. I have a pair of UMT70s's that I love, but I've never heard the older transformer model so I can't make a comparison.
Hey Sean,

Well, this is a tough one, because its virtually the same exact microphone! Of course, there are differences to speak of. The UM70S uses an output transformer, and has a modular capsule system, where there are other capsules available to make it a completely different microphone. The UMT70s, is fixed capsule head, but has the same amplifier circuit as the MV692, however it is electronically balanced, transformer-less, so it has a slightly different sound than the UM70s. IMO, the difference is slight, but audible still.

The Modern iteration has better noise rating and higher dynamic range. The Transient does not become non-linear as early on with a loud source and there is less "harmonic" quality, and perhaps more "pliability", which I would define as a flatter sound and perhaps a more magnified vison of the M7. I can always "subvert" this microphone to offer a smokier sound as well. Having a more "pliable" microphone is my preference here, being that the microphones are only "subtly" different from one another, in my humble opinion.
Old 21st September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Thanks, Adam, makes sense. The UM70 may have a little more "vibe," but the UMT70s might be useful in more situations. I've never yet found a source my UMT70's didn't sound good on, though other mics are often a better match for a particular source—particularly with voices. I'm sure if I had a UM70, it too would sometime win out over its modern counterpart.

By the way, thanks for recommending them to me a few years ago in your Mercenary days. A wise choice.
Old 29th September 2011
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
JRE Productions's Avatar
 

Quick Update:

So I made the deal and end up with a vintage UM70 with 692 body. Its moduler but has the tuchel connector. It came with the XLR pigtail and runs on 48v. Overall good condtion, although the plastic ring for changing the patterns is disconnected.

I only have about 10 minutes with it last night and just plug it thru the Digi 002 preamps. (I really wanted to plug it into the Neve, but just did not have time...Ahhh...). I also just used the AKG headphones as my Dynaudio's are disconnected getting ready for a move.

First impression was really good. Very smooth. It actually sounded like what I thought a good U87 was supposed to sound like. The mids sounded really clean and clear and not nasally with my voice. I do like the fact that the proximatey effect is low too. I was able to get up close and get an intimate sound or back up a bit and get a nice warm full sound without a lot of bottom end differences. I also like the top end. I felt it was smooth and not at all hyped etc.

I will have to test it later with my better preamps and with my monitors set up etc, but I like it. Have to mess with the 10db pad and roll off. I didn't have a chance to see which switch was enaged. The on/off lettering is worn off... That might be why it needed a bit more gain on the preamp then I thought it would.

Thanks to all that recomended it!


J
Old 29th September 2011
  #27
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
CMV563 has quite a hot output, UM57 a bit less, but still much hotter than 414eb. KM76 is on par with CMV (as far as I can say). Don't know about MV692, but M582 didn't need a lot of gain too. I was quite surprised how low 414 is.
Old 29th September 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRE Productions View Post
(...) Overall good condtion, although the plastic ring for changing the patterns is disconnected.(...)I do like the fact that the proximatey effect is low too. I was able to get up close and get an intimate sound or back up a bit and get a nice warm full sound without a lot of bottom end differences. I also like the top end. I felt it was smooth and not at all hyped (...)That might be why it needed a bit more gain on the preamp then I thought it would.
Could it be that it's stuck on omni?
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump