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Master fader rides¿ Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 16th September 2011
  #1
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Beastie's Avatar
 

Master fader rides¿

what do you guys think is the most effective way to get that extra bit of level for your big pop chorus?

master fader rides?

vca group fader rides?

cheers
Old 16th September 2011
  #2
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it's always going to be more effective if there's a better arrangement.

Most "Big choruses", sound so big, as they have significantly more elements in than the verses.
Old 16th September 2011
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jampottt View Post
it's always going to be more effective if there's a better arrangement.

Most "Big choruses", sound so big, as they have significantly more elements in than the verses.
yes agreed...
Old 16th September 2011
  #4
Bringing the master fader up a half db may help but there are other ways of getting there. Bring the OH up a touch (stole that from Ronan)or bring up a vocal double. I've also in tracking gone back and done choruses a few beats faster for a little chaos as well. An extra layer of guitars can go a long way too. Ymmv.
Old 16th September 2011
  #5
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Drumsound's Avatar
Another idea:
Mute things during the verse, open them for the chorus.
Old 16th September 2011
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Another idea:
Mute things during the verse, open them for the chorus.
This too, sometimes it's cool to keep the drums really tight and dry for the verse and then open everything up.
Old 16th September 2011
  #7
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Another basic idea: have the chorus vocal thinner but wider and the verse thicker, louder and taller, forward........in other words the chorus 'dives' into more compression as the instruments overtake the vocal a little and then it reappears out front ......you want the chorus feeling more intense, not necessarily (only) louder......
Old 17th September 2011
  #8
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u b k's Avatar
 

Nice one Karloff.

Up the sends to the fx, make it deeper.

Arrangement-wise, it's very effective to have the bass contrast from verse to chorus. If it's tight, syncopated, and sparse in the v, go legato and melodic in the chorus. If it's midrangey in the verse, drop it deep for the chorus, or vice versa.

Harmonies up, stack em' high!


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 17th September 2011
  #9
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I might get destroyed here, but I have placed a send to a group channel of things like vocals, guitars and drum overheads. Add a stereo enhancer, chorus, or something there to create a sense of movement if the performance/writing did not get it right to begin with. Mute it during verses and unmute......blah blah. Nothing can ever replace good song structure that should make this happen on it's own. Sometimes tho, you gotta find ways to make good **** appear to happen from crap.
Old 17th September 2011
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmys69 View Post
I might get destroyed here, but I have placed a send to a group channel of things like vocals, guitars and drum overheads. Add a stereo enhancer, chorus, or something there to create a sense of movement if the performance/writing did not get it right to begin with. Mute it during verses and unmute......blah blah. Nothing can ever replace good song structure that should make this happen on it's own. Sometimes tho, you gotta find ways to make good **** appear to happen from crap.
There's nothing wrong with the approach. I often use a stereo chorus or flanger in that manner.
Old 17th September 2011
  #11
Lay off the buss compressors. When those extra tracks come up, so will the levels.

That worked back in the 1970's.
Old 17th September 2011
  #12
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Nice one Karloff.

Arrangement-wise, it's very effective to have the bass contrast from verse to chorus. If it's tight, syncopated, and sparse in the v, go legato and melodic in the chorus. If it's midrangey in the verse, drop it deep for the chorus, or vice versa.
Or even simpler, have the bass player release/mute on the backbeats in the verses, so the snare plays in the open, but play over the backbeats in the choruses.

"Playing the silences like you play the notes" is a concept that should already be in every decent bass player's arsenal but often isn't. And it's not all that easy to pick up on the fly -- not something you can just spring on the bassist in the middle of a session.
Old 17th September 2011
  #13
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drBill's Avatar
If I'm involved with the production / arrangements / writing, 98% of the time I'll accomplish it with arrangement rather than audio trickery. Audio trickery is cool, but it's kind of an afterthought, designed to help something that needs help. A great arrangement doesn't need any help to go big at the chorus.
Old 18th September 2011
  #14
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
"Playing the silences like you play the notes" is a concept that should already be in every decent bass player's arsenal but often isn't.

If someone needs a little nudging to grasp how the timing of their mutes/releases affects the groove, I'll turn the music down to the threshold of audibility, silence their amp, and have them play the part. I ask them to listen to the actual percussive sounds of their fingers on the strings, and to note how every click and slap and slide and squeak creates a groove, no different than a percussionist.

If I need to, I'll finger-drum the groove while they play so they can hear when and where things fall out of time, and how that compromises the pocket.

It doesn't always help out in that session, but it definitely plants a seed, you can see their brain hep to a new thing as the concept begins to take hold.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 18th September 2011
  #15
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Yes Greg....only sometimes when you do this sort of thing the bugger strats resenting you....especially likely if he isn't able to convert and sees his musical masculinity threatened.....lol

And yes of course Bill, but regardless of arr I still like the compression to chomp down on the chorus for any rock stuff specifically......

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Gearslutz.com App
Old 18th September 2011
  #16
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thanks

Thank you guys all very useful and interesting

Appreciate your time and guidance
Old 19th September 2011
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
A great arrangement doesn't need any help to go big at the chorus.
Somebody forgot to tell that Andy Wallace.
Old 19th September 2011
  #18
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Sometimes I like to split the chorus onto its own set of tracks and busses and approach it like a completely different mix. It can be a little tricky sometimes with the transitions at times though, at least for me.

You can also play tricks with the listener's attention span using automation- some elements that make the chorus sound huge when it hits don't have to be upfront or even present throughout the entire chorus, and then you do another build at the end, etc.

I generally prefer VCA's and bus automation to automating the master fader, there is more give and take.
Old 19th September 2011
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post

You can also play tricks with the listener's attention span using automation- some elements that make the chorus sound huge when it hits don't have to be upfront or even present throughout the entire chorus, and then you do another build at the end, etc.

I generally prefer VCA's and bus automation to automating the master fader, there is more give and take.
IM feeling this vibe - worked a treat

Thanks
Old 19th September 2011
  #20
I never move the master fader personally. If I need the chorus up there is the highend trick too by doubling the take, filtering out the lows and boost the highs (7 to 12k range and) then blend that specific part to taste. You can compress it down too and blend back up - but it is really just a shimmer effect and if used properly really makes the part stand out.

I bet the UBK clariphonic could take it up a notch easily too :-)

I never move the master fader though unless I am bringing a track back in at a specific overall DB level for pre-mastering.

Best
Old 20th September 2011
  #21
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tomat's Avatar
 

As point out in this recent SOS article ‘Dynamic Range’ & The Loudness War drastic dynamic changes between song parts (intro, verse, chorus, ...) is used very often in todays productions.
Old 20th September 2011
  #22
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I had some success (depending on the song/arrangement) with the
well known "ramping technique", whether is done with volume, pan or eq,
on the master bus

I see lotsa people having some kind of phobia touching the master bus in that way but there's really nothing wrong with it.

Basic techniques like half db higher on the choruses (volume),
keep the pan 90% on the verses and then open it to 100% on the choruses (pan), keeping a slightly different eq setting on the master bus for verse and choruses, this can wildly vary, slight roll off on the highs on verses, or a bit less bass, less mids, I find very effective this last one when using M/S eq,
just lift the high/air band on the choruses only on the sides, etc..

Plenty of nice automation can be done on the master bus, once the mix is done, to enhance the various parts of the song, actually, I think that's something mixing engineers should pay much more attention to because
it takes 10 minutes but it can profoundly change the feel of a song
Old 20th September 2011
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelDoc View Post
I bet the UBK clariphonic could take it up a notch easily too :-)
funny you say that, i have that sat after the RED 3 on the mix bus
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