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CLA telling the difference between boys and men Control Surfaces
Old 9th September 2011
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
That is true, but to play devil's advocate here, it can be said about the other side as well.

Sure, many of you have tried to work ITB and simply didn't like it. Fair enough.

But if you put 10-20 years into working on a real console, how long is a fair shot at ITB? I'd bet if you had no other option, you'd figure it out.

But many of you do have the option. So why change? You shouldn't. It's OK.

One of the biggest mixers in the world was still using Mac OS9. It works. Why change?

Are 3324's still state of the art? Of course not. But why change if it works?

No successful entity is going to change what works for them until they see the benefit.
Thanks for stating this so well

You should read my comments on the logic of the basic argument proposed that onr who has not used SSL can't have an opinion. You may find it supports your position on this matter from a philosophical perspective
Old 9th September 2011
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyboy7 View Post
True, but on is able to analyze an argument from a philosophical perspective and show if said argument is demonstrably false/contradictory.

For example, the White Crow argument is a classic example of monistic propositions. Saying that unless someone has mixed on an SSL, Neve, or similar makes them unqualified to state an opinion on this topic is defeated logically with one contradiction to your statement. However, if you restated your claim to say it is highly unlikely that someone is qualified leaves enough wiggle room to be logically feasible.

The reason I am saying all of this is that the main argument here is about the advantages of a tactile mixing experience coupled with sonic qualities that inspire the mixer. One could argue that someone who has only mixed on control surfaces for DAW's and eventually get's a chance to use an SSL 4000E could say they don't like them. Would this be valid claim? A credible claim? Absolutely, because it's their perception albeit somewhat biased and based on conditioning.

In like manner, one could say that those who have always used SSL consoles also have a perception that is biased and based on conditioning as well as other motivating factors like prestige and being in an elite club. These all may be contributing factors to their opinion but I don't think it makes their opinion on this topic more valid nor do I think it means one has to have experience on these consoles to have a valid opinion.

Ultimately, there are those that have used said prestigious consoles but now use control surfaces. This alone can give one with no experience an argument from authority by simply stating that someone with experience has the same opinion they do.
Absolutely. It's easy for me to agree with the pro-tactile side because that is how I cut my teeth. Moving real faders makes perfect sense to me. And the ability to multi-task with many fingers does seem obvious.

But I can never fully put myself in the position of someone who has learned and mastered the ability to mix with a mouse first. Or draws in automation rather than ride a fader.

While that seems crazy to me (and others) if you really think about it, mixing with faders in a computer is pretty darn silly. It's like drawing a picture with an etch-a-sketch rather than just drawing what you want the computer to do.
Old 9th September 2011
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyboy7 View Post
You should read my comments on the logic of the basic argument proposed that onr who has not used SSL can't have an opinion. You may find it supports your position on this matter from a philosophical perspective
Oh. I did. Twice actually. Perfectly stated.
Old 9th September 2011
  #124
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Perhaps the title of the thread is a bit much. Seems to me CLA clearly stated " for how I like to work" AS far as CLA's persona If you spend enough time in NYC you realize he is actually a semi laid back transplant.
Old 9th September 2011
  #125
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TheBankInc's Avatar
 

For the record I love our Mac Pro (Logic, PT, Live) and I love our SSL
6000. It's a Threesome.
Old 9th September 2011
  #126
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Yeah Macs inspire me. With Macs I feel like a real big man, with PCs I feel like a little boy.



(But seriously Macs are better). heh

And yeah I can move a hundred tracks with one click, no need to even make group tracks.

I guess some old fartknockers just can´t mix ITB.

This thread is ridiculous. Thanks CLA!
Old 9th September 2011
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Perhaps the title of the thread is a bit much. Seems to me CLA clearly stated " for how I like to work" AS far as CLA's persona If you spend enough time in NYC you realize he is actually a semi laid back transplant.
I wonder how the ladies feel about the title of the thread?
Old 9th September 2011
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
And yeah I can move a hundred tracks with one click, no need to even make group tracks.
Yes of course you can, even though the necessity of ever doing so is arguable

But what was meant by those who brought this up in the first place, is that with a mouse in a DAW you cannot, for example, simultaneously adjust multiple faders with arbitrary relativity ... if that makes sense ... you just can't! It's not the same as turning multiple things up or down by the same relative amounts, or by inverse amounts! That was the point originally.
Old 9th September 2011
  #129
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With ITB you can do soooooooooooooooo many things so much better, the possibilities are virtually infinite and the workflow is absolutely great! At least for me and I´ve used big consoles. With OTB, not so much, very poor in fact. This shouldn´t be even a debate.
Old 9th September 2011
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
With ITB you can do soooooooooooooooo many things so much better, the possibilities are virtually infinite and the workflow is absolutely great! At least for me and I´ve used big consoles. With OTB, not so much, very poor in fact. This shouldn´t be even a debate.
It's funny that we got into one of the weaker points of a LFAC being it's strong point. heh

It would be like the ITB lovers claiming that plugins and digital sound wayy better.

I hope they haven't conceded the sound quality argument just yet. heh

But in all seriousness, there are certainly workflow benefits to either.

For me, the only way to seriously consider using a LFAC is if it was in a very controlled environment where everything was incredibly easy to recall. And it is possible. It would just be expensive and require a team.

Think about it. When these guys buy a new piece of hardware every time they want a different preset (I forget which Lord that was) you have to think it's partly because of the ease of recall too. Right?
Old 9th September 2011
  #131
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Bla bla bla play, stop, play bla bla bla, play stop, fast forward, bla bla bla, Bono, Billy Joel, Green Day, bla bla bla i can suck my own di$$
Old 9th September 2011
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Yes of course you can, even though the necessity of ever doing so is arguable

But what was meant by those who brought this up in the first place, is that with a mouse in a DAW you cannot, for example, simultaneously adjust multiple faders with arbitrary relativity ... if that makes sense ... you just can't! It's not the same as turning multiple things up or down by the same relative amounts, or by inverse amounts! That was the point originally.
Wonderfully explained.
Old 9th September 2011
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Bla bla bla play, stop, play bla bla bla, play stop, fast forward, bla bla bla, Bono, Billy Joel, Green Day, bla bla bla i can suck my own di$$
Ha ha ha! - seriously funny.

I wish we could just lock this thread after that!
Old 9th September 2011
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zooloop View Post
Wonderfully explained.
Old 9th September 2011
  #135
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Somebody needs to invent some kind of 'control surface' with all these faders that can control levels and pans and stuff in Pro Tools. That would be awesome for balancing out rough mixes, ITB. One can only dream
Old 9th September 2011
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Bla bla bla play, stop, play bla bla bla, play stop, fast forward, bla bla bla, Bono, Billy Joel, Green Day, bla bla bla i can suck my own di$$
Hahahahahah! Truth. heh

Nice to know that OTB has PLAY/STOP & Fast Forward/Rewind buttons. heh

My ITB DAW has instantaneous playback, so I don´t know what the hell was CLA talking about there, unless he was talking about PT.

The Pro Tools HD rigs I´ve worked with in multiple top notch studios, veeeeeeeeeeery slooooooooooooow.
Old 9th September 2011
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
If you do not get the point of what I am acknowledging no amount of glib and facile comebacks are going to enlighten you...
Have a great week-end !
Cheers
Old 9th September 2011
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestral View Post
And when I turn the big red knob on my Neve 1073 and feel+hear the satisfying click-clack, and manually patching in my 1176, it's a very different feeling compared to calling up the equivalent plugins, and it affects what I do and therefore the outcome.

The process affects the outcome. One of those blindingly obvious truths that somehow gets forgotten.
When I mix ITB it's ok....
When I mix on my Calrec it's exciting...... and recall be damned!

If I have recall I never feel like I have finished a mix, I prefer to do another mix with my clients feedback in mind than endlessly tweak and save, that's when I lose direction.
The challenge then becomes thinking ahead and covering bases; I print a few mixes with the vocal up and down, different emphasis etc.

My opinion doesn't mean that anyone else is wrong doing their thing and how they manage their own trade off between budget and creativity, even the mighty CLA faces that challenge.

Talking of CLA all power to him for carving a niche for himself but I personally can't stand his mixes and the influence his work has had on what has become the norm. Bring back dynamics!

Oh yeah, macs are crap and PC's rule!......they sound really different
Old 9th September 2011
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americansun View Post
[B]My opinion is the the title of this thread "CLA telling the difference between boys and men" is not really helpful and that "some people" here a immature.
EXACTLY. The OP is trolling at best. Trying to start an uproar at worst. CLA can use what he likes. He's successful at it. I've mixed on SSL's, API's, Neve's, D&R's, and probably a dozen other consoles many many times.

These days, I choose to be UN-impowered (dumb idiot comment from the OP) on a DAW. And I even like my trackball. Who woulda thunk......
Old 9th September 2011
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DITN View Post
I get the feeling that all the hardcore ITB fans are people who have never had the luxury of using a console and could never afford one, and hence are trying desperately to justify ITB over a console in their own minds so they don't feel short changed.

Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.
How do you explain mixers who have been doing it for decades who prefer mixing ITB? I find just as many old guys who love their DAW's as young guys who wish for a console.
Old 9th September 2011
  #141
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shortstory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Well just look at the film world where celluloid used to be king.. What kind of cameras are the pro's packing nowadays?

People and time just move on - artistic cultures and methods change, irrespective of nostalgic melancholy...
The pros I work with still use film as well as digital. There are times that digital video can't provide what the director needs- and film is still even used on 95% of the commercials you watch. If you think film will become completely obsolete- guess again.

And to the guy who says "SSL automation is slow & cumbersome- unless you have someone like an asst to set it up"- that's recall- not automation. SSL automation is amazing and you obviously have never used it- let alone heard your tracks thru an SSL- which would change your mind in an instant.

One thing I find ironic is that ITB folks like to say the OTB guys have to defend their investment- it certainly goes both ways- I hear allot of ITB guys saying there's no difference & digital is just as good or my new favorite one: I wouldn't have an SSL if I were given one for free.

Digital brought music to the masses- and photography & video- that doesn't mean anything as far as the physics & science of sound and the art of capturing & recording music.
Old 9th September 2011
  #142
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shortstory's Avatar
Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.[/QUOTE]

Well said.
Old 9th September 2011
  #143
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This thread should be closed because nothing smart can't be learned from it. Turned out to be another what is better, analog or digital. But to those guys who say digital is better than analog and vice versa, it simply doesn't matter, what matters is that both gets job done. You use what you prefer most.

END OF STORY!!!
Old 9th September 2011
  #144
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jimmyboy7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
How do you explain mixers who have been doing it for decades who prefer mixing ITB? I find just as many old guys who love their DAW's as young guys who wish for a console.
I wonder why these discussions are always either/or instead of yes, and....

In a perfect world I would like a control surface that sounds like Neve, SSL, API, and maybe a Trident....

Oh yea, I can get that with a C24 and Slate VCC

...Now watch the analog and SSL brigade torch me into oblivion
Old 9th September 2011
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akisD28 View Post
It should be clarified in the title of this thread that it's an official SSL YouTube advert.
hah, seemed like it.

Gets no better than console to control a DAW... digital routing and plugin options are tremendous, put some real knobs in with that capability and in comes best of both worlds.
Old 9th September 2011
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstory View Post
Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.

Well said.
Short Story-

Really, then tell me your thought on this..

"True, but one is able to analyze an argument from a philosophical perspective and show if said argument is demonstrably false/contradictory.

For example, the White Crow argument is a classic example of monistic propositions. Saying that unless someone has mixed on an SSL, Neve, or similar makes them unqualified to state an opinion on this topic is defeated logically with one contradiction to your statement. However, if you restated your claim to say it is highly unlikely that someone is qualified leaves enough wiggle room to be logically feasible.

The reason I am saying all of this is that the main argument here is about the advantages of a tactile mixing experience coupled with sonic qualities that inspire the mixer. One could argue that someone who has only mixed on control surfaces for DAW's and eventually get's a chance to use an SSL 4000E could say they don't like them. Would this be valid claim? A credible claim? Absolutely, because it's their perception albeit somewhat biased and based on conditioning.

In like manner, one could say that those who have always used SSL consoles also have a perception that is biased and based on conditioning as well as other motivating factors like prestige and being in an elite club. These all may be contributing factors to their opinion but I don't think it makes their opinion on this topic more valid nor do I think it means one has to have experience on these consoles to have a valid opinion.

Ultimately, there are those that have used said prestigious consoles but now use control surfaces. This alone can give one with no experience an argument from authority by simply stating that someone with experience has the same opinion they do.

With all that said, I wish I had an SSL too I actually have considered the Nucleus just to have the SSL brand in my studio "

Last edited by jimmyboy7; 9th September 2011 at 09:36 PM.. Reason: Typos
Old 9th September 2011
  #147
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Slikjmuzik's Avatar
 

Between boys & men, huh? I would think the real man can get a great mix itb. All the pros talk about how much easier it is to get a mix to sound good with 'real' outboard gear. Great!! If that's being a man, then I'll enjoy being a boy. Come to my facility, use my gear, and get the sound that satisfies my clients...all itb like I do it!! Then, come tell me you're a man. Btw, I have a board myself and have access to a 4064 E/G for only $40/hr pretty much any time I want. I could drive there and stem things out and get a mix within 2-4hours after doing all the cleaning up itb. With what I make at my facility, paying $80-$160 for a mix is easily justifiable. I still don't do it. Haven't for about a year and a half now.
Old 10th September 2011
  #148
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shortstory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyboy7 View Post
Short Story-

Really, then tell me your thought on this..

"True, but one is able to analyze an argument from a philosophical perspective and show if said argument is demonstrably false/contradictory.

For example, the White Crow argument is a classic example of monistic propositions. Saying that unless someone has mixed on an SSL, Neve, or similar makes them unqualified to state an opinion on this topic is defeated logically with one contradiction to your statement. However, if you restated your claim to say it is highly unlikely that someone is qualified leaves enough wiggle room to be logically feasible.

The reason I am saying all of this is that the main argument here is about the advantages of a tactile mixing experience coupled with sonic qualities that inspire the mixer. One could argue that someone who has only mixed on control surfaces for DAW's and eventually get's a chance to use an SSL 4000E could say they don't like them. Would this be valid claim? A credible claim? Absolutely, because it's their perception albeit somewhat biased and based on conditioning.

In like manner, one could say that those who have always used SSL consoles also have a perception that is biased and based on conditioning as well as other motivating factors like prestige and being in an elite club. These all may be contributing factors to their opinion but I don't think it makes their opinion on this topic more valid nor do I think it means one has to have experience on these consoles to have a valid opinion.

Ultimately, there are those that have used said prestigious consoles but now use control surfaces. This alone can give one with no experience an argument from authority by simply stating that someone with experience has the same opinion they do.

With all that said, I wish I had an SSL too I actually have considered the Nucleus just to have the SSL brand in my studio "
That's a lot too reply to-
It sounds similar to the definition of mathematical theorems- cannot be proven as fact, so is accepted until proven false. My math & science are stronger than my philosophical training- although sounds similar to descartes principle that there are no truths.

I feel strongly that 99 & 44/100ths of people that have worked strictly ITB would be excited by and prefer the sound of their music after putting it thru an analog console & gear.

I'm leaving wiggle room as you suggested- but the expanded frequency ranges and harmonics are very pleasing by comparison.

I use protools by the way and I use it like a 'tape machine' as they say. I am very fortunate to have the studio that I have (although it took 22 years of work). I originally bought a control24 thinking I'd work ITB, but it did not sound right to me. Everyone else (wife, friends) thought it sounded amazing, but I could here the limits. So I bought a used AWS and went back to an analog desk albeit with ideal DAW functionality.

And I do believe that the science of sound is beyond what digital is capable of. In fact analog is too. As Walter Sear said- "recordings suck, I'm trying to make them better".

Digital went the wrong way- but the ease outweighs the cons- and my other analog gear helps make up for some of it.

Thanks for reminding me to leave wiggle room too.
Old 10th September 2011
  #149
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jimmyboy7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstory View Post
That's a lot too reply to-
It sounds similar to the definition of mathematical theorems- cannot be proven as fact, so is accepted until proven false. My math & science are stronger than my philosophical training- although sounds similar to descartes principle that there are no truths.

I feel strongly that 99 & 44/100ths of people that have worked strictly ITB would be excited by and prefer the sound of their music after putting it thru an analog console & gear.

I'm leaving wiggle room as you suggested- but the expanded frequency ranges and harmonics are very pleasing by comparison.

I use protools by the way and I use it like a 'tape machine' as they say. I am very fortunate to have the studio that I have (although it took 22 years of work). I originally bought a control24 thinking I'd work ITB, but it did not sound right to me. Everyone else (wife, friends) thought it sounded amazing, but I could here the limits. So I bought a used AWS and went back to an analog desk albeit with ideal DAW functionality.

And I do believe that the science of sound is beyond what digital is capable of. In fact analog is too. As Walter Sear said- "recordings suck, I'm trying to make them better".

Digital went the wrong way- but the ease outweighs the cons- and my other analog gear helps make up for some of it.

Thanks for reminding me to leave wiggle room too.
No problem, It is similar to some mathematic ideas in that it is an inductive argumnet. Ala Descartes', when dealing with people and taste their is inescapable subjectivity
Old 10th September 2011
  #150
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomcore View Post
This thread should be closed because nothing smart can't be learned from it.
Unintentionally perfect. heh
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