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CLA telling the difference between boys and men Control Surfaces
Old 9th September 2011
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Dude what are you smoking? - seriously.

Let this whole 'big consoles are quicker' thing go!

It's not even worth replying to your unconvincing dissertation...
I just upgraded our API Legacy Plus analog console with a Apple logo sticker next to the VU meters. Much faster now.

I am ready for the world audio competitions. I know Jamaica has a lot of fast mixers and runners but I think Canadian dinosaurs have a chance of winning the 50m of tape run mixing.
Old 9th September 2011
  #92
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zooloop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
wow, up to 10 faders at once ? I can move 100 faders with just my one finger in a DAW. And can you grab channel 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 19 and 32 and 61 with two hands? How many pan changes you can do at the same time ? Up to 2 ? Not bad, https://www.gearslutz.com/board/newre...ply&p=7014215I can do 100 with one finger. How much time it takes to make a full recall of your desk ? More than 2 seconds ? Man...
You can move 100 faders with a mouse at once but only as a group! You can assign channels to groups on a SSL and most other large format consoles.

I believe what Jindrich is talking about is balancing the faders relative to each other using 10 fingers instead of only using 1 finger on the mouse. An example of this might be that I want to balance my snare, bottom snare and 2 mono OH's. On a desk or a control surface I can do this at the same time with 4 fingers until I find the sweetspot of where I think it should be. With a mouse I need to first balance let's say start with the snare, then I need to slide my mouse over to the bottom snare and balance that against the snare. Moving on to the overheads and balance them against the snare. Balance not quite right, so then I have move my mouse around moving one fader at the time to find the balance I like.

I think of mixing with faders versus a mouse a bit like recording MIDI with a keyboard versus step sequence the notes with a mouse. They are both capable of producing the exact same results. Chances are that they won't.
Old 9th September 2011
  #93
Gear Head
 
americansun's Avatar
 

What is this negativity all about?


I don't care what CLA uses or not. In fact Chris Lord Alge is a master mixer and a fantastic guy! We all have the right to use whatever we want. And we all have the right to have an opinion.

My opinion is the the title of this thread "CLA telling the difference between boys and men" is not really helpful and that "some people" here a immature.
Old 9th September 2011
  #94
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shortstory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMauce View Post
With all respect... I like CLA mix style, I like old analog desk and tape... But it's all gonna be like dinosaurs some time. Old, absolete and unpractical in the modern way of mixing music.
In business picture this isn't to last long. Time is changing and so the way we work.
Move on and make your own style that is adapted for the future instead of copying like a Chinese guy back-engineering a U47...
Bullcrap-

An SSL will never be dinosaurs.

The AWS & duality are amazing- and there will be 4k Es and Gs forever in top notch studios.

Any ITB person would take a free AWS in a second.

And if digital completely eliminates analog hardware (and consoles) altogether- it will be a sad and pathetic day for the art of recording.
Old 9th September 2011
  #95
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstory View Post
And if digital completely eliminates analog hardware (and consoles) altogether- it will be a sad and pathetic day for the art of recording.
Well just look at the film world where celluloid used to be king.. What kind of cameras are the pro's packing nowadays?

People and time just move on - artistic cultures and methods change, irrespective of nostalgic melancholy...
Old 9th September 2011
  #96
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“When starting a mix on an analogue desk, I’m able to get a rough balance of how I want the track to sound very quickly. Being able to reach for a fader, EQ, compression, panning and aux sends on each track is infinitely quicker than doing so with a mouse or control surface, where you can normally only access processing on one channel at a time. I find this a much more natural and intuitive way of working and ______(console) delivers this capability while giving me control of all facets of our Pro Tools® software from the console surface...”

Sam Okell, recording engineer for Abbey Road Studios.
Old 9th September 2011
  #97
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What exactly is the point of all these posts stating what people prefer? Adding the implied "because I'm so and so it must be true".

I love consoles. I love computers, I love making and mixing music whatever the mode of the day. But when someone, especially someone perhaps on the payroll of X console company, makes absolute statements about speed and quality of his work. my only comment is that in this big side world there is always someone who can prove you wrong.

I'm all for everyone doing whatever they get best results with. I;m also for people expressing opinionsa as opinion and not fact. particularly in front of a class on impressionable young engineers
Old 9th September 2011
  #98
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Bob Amirian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerV View Post
+1

Sidenote: Regardless of what I have in front of me (been mixing mostly ITB, but my 1st console is arriving this weekend), I enjoy my job immensely. I have never felt like a "telephone operator".
What desk did you order?

I'm looking around to find the best step from ITB to "ITB controlled via OTB ", if this statement makes any sense.

Portico 5088?
Custom 75 by Neve?
Wunder?
Tonelux?

Or just a great summing summing box like Manley 16x2, Thermionic Culture Fat Bustard or Chandler Mini Mixer..?
Old 9th September 2011
  #99
Gear Head
 

That clip was just stupid. Did people actually pay money to be there?
Old 9th September 2011
  #100
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
“When starting a mix on an analogue desk, I’m able to get a rough balance of how I want the track to sound very quickly. Being able to reach for a fader, EQ, compression, panning and aux sends on each track is infinitely quicker than doing so with a mouse or control surface, where you can normally only access processing on one channel at a time. I find this a much more natural and intuitive way of working and ______(console) delivers this capability while giving me control of all facets of our Pro Tools® software from the console surface...”

Sam Okell, recording engineer for Abbey Road Studios.
I agree with everything he has said except for the part in red.

Very few control surfaces only allow you to "access processing on one channel at a time".

While it's nice to have all the processing in front of you, usually it's not possible.

For me, I find the SSL's channel compressors and EQ to be pretty pedestrian compared to what outboard any good mixing room would normally have. Like Neve, API, Pultec, Distressors, Daking, 1176s, LA2a's, LA3a's etc.

So, using that great outboard gear during the mix, is probably not going to be right in front of you. It's not going to be that much more convenient than opening up a new plugin (patching in a patchbay) and making those settings with a mouse. Or if you have one of the bigger control surfaces (ICON) you'll have dedicated buttons.

Having many faders to grab onto quickly and move separately is essential to how I mix. But it's not something that you need a large format analog console to achieve.
Old 9th September 2011
  #101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

Very few control surfaces only allow you to "access processing on one channel at a time". While it's nice to have all the processing in front of you, usually it's not possible.
Kenny, you gotta try out the SMART AV TANGO, this thing is WICKED.
Old 9th September 2011
  #102
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
People and time just move on - artistic cultures and methods change, irrespective of nostalgic melancholy...
People and time just move on....and two new Dinosaurs Studios in Canada (Toronto) this year...

Revolution Studios: (Neve-SSL)
REVOLUTION RECORDING

Noble Street: (SSL - SSL)
http://www.noblestreetstudios.com/noble_home.html

Its cool to be nostalgic
Old 9th September 2011
  #103
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Kenny, you gotta try out the SMART AV TANGO, this thing is WICKED.
It looks like it.

No Reaper support?

While I love my Control 24, I would love to trade it in for something that works with other DAWs as well.
Old 9th September 2011
  #104
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Lab View Post
People and time just move on....and two new Dinosaurs Studios in Canada (Toronto) this year...

Revolution Studios: (Neve-SSL)
REVOLUTION RECORDING

Noble Street: (SSL - SSL)
http://www.noblestreetstudios.com/noble_home.html

Its cool to be nostalgic
If you do not get the point of what I am acknowledging no amount of glib and facile comebacks are going to enlighten you...
Old 9th September 2011
  #105
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Yes Kenny I agree, Digidesign's large D-Control is the closest and IMO only controller that truly resembles an LFAC, and therefore allows to work as quick.
But that would be ONLY under the hands of a very trained operator. I've seen plenty of guys parked in the center of an ICON playing just the keyboard and trackball, and grabbing only the faders occasionally.

An ICON doesn't apply the one-knob-one-function as a traditional LFAC or a digital desk like the SSL Axiom did, so it still requires some thinking before any move. On the other hand, it allows some wicked tricks, for instance, to spill the tracks of any VCA Group on a determined set of faders, and stuff like that.
Watching (experienced) Post guys on an ICON is an spectacle onto itself.
Old 9th September 2011
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

For me, I find the SSL's channel compressors and EQ to be pretty pedestrian compared to what outboard any good mixing room would normally have. Like Neve, API, Pultec, Distressors, Daking, 1176s, LA2a's, LA3a's etc.

So, using that great outboard gear during the mix, is probably not going to be right in front of you. It's not going to be that much more convenient than opening up a new plugin (patching in a patchbay) and making those settings with a mouse. Or if you have one of the bigger control surfaces (ICON) you'll have dedicated buttons.

Having many faders to grab onto quickly and move separately is essential to how I mix. But it's not something that you need a large format analog console to achieve.
Why would you compare using outboard over SSL channel and not do the same for DAW? If the SSL channel isn't good enough for you, surely the plugs ITB won't pass your standard. In these cases, I think this part of the debate is a wash.

For what it's worth, I think the SSL channel is fantastic on drums and bass - I go to my outboard for mainly for vocals.
Old 9th September 2011
  #107
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TobyToby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
Yes, he seems to be quite full of himself and stuck to his old ways, like most mixing engineers actually.

I wouldn´t use that console even if I got it for free. I would feel like an old washed up fartknocker with dinosaur equipment.

ITB (without DSP) native rules!
It seems You are quiet full of yourself and your GS-Name does not really justify your opinions and your 'studio' because software is not gear and there is not much else you are talking about here on GS.

My quote:
I wouldn't use ITB exclusively even if I got it for free. I would feel like an idiot who tries to emulate real gear with artificial equipment


In my opinion there are no 'old ways' when it comes to mixing. There are only successful ways or no ways.








Old 9th September 2011
  #108
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Yes Kenny I agree, Digidesign's large D-Control is the closest and IMO only controller that truly resembles an LFAC, and therefore allows to work as quick.
But that would be ONLY under the hands of a very trained operator. I've seen plenty of guys parked in the center of an ICON playing just the mouse and trackball, and grabbing only the faders occasionally.
And I know a very successful dance production team that uses two channels of their SSL for monitoring the output of Pro Tools. Both sides require some experience with your tools to get the most out of them.

Now if you're saying that it's quicker for a "stranger" to a studio to get up and running on a LFAC than I would agree. I've worked in many SSL and Neve rooms and was able to get up and running in minutes. While my first experience with the SONY Oxford console was very far from intuitive. D-Control would be the same. But it still does what you need it to do. You just have to know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
An ICON doesn't apply the one-knob-one-function as a traditional LFAC or a digital desk like the SSL Axiom did, so it still requires some thinking before any move. On the other hand, it allows some wicked tricks, for instance, to spill the tracks of any VCA Group on a determined set of faders, and stuff like that.
Watching (experienced) Post guys on an ICON is an spectacle onto itself.
Yes. The one-knob-one-function has it's advantages. Which is what I loved about the baby Oxford console. The EQ and Compressor were very good so it was very quick to work with. But you had to use those built in effects. As soon as you want to use Waves or Soundtoys plugins, you were back to the mouse. Which is still the issue with most LFAC as well. Outboard may have dedicated buttons but the unit was rarely in the sweet spot as it is for me with all my plugins.

And one-knob-one-function also falls short with a large amount of faders in some ways. I used to own a 24 channel Pro Control. Then I bought a Control 24 for my home studio and realized I liked it better because the faders were closer together. I could reach all 24 faders without moving my head. You can't do that with 64+ faders on a real console.
Old 9th September 2011
  #109
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DITN's Avatar
I get the feeling that all the hardcore ITB fans are people who have never had the luxury of using a console and could never afford one, and hence are trying desperately to justify ITB over a console in their own minds so they don't feel short changed.

Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.
Old 9th September 2011
  #110
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

I just cruised through this thread and I'm amazed at how many comments there are about how CLA is full of it. This coming from many low budget guys who couldn't even hold a candle to this guy in the modern world. Why in the world anyone would have any merit with a lot of these comments considering that most of them come from guys who are very limited in experience, especially with large consoles (SSL's). There is so much to learn from these kind of guys (CLA) and just because you can't afford the same gear doesn't lessen the fact that he is hugely successful and frankly has a right to exhibit is opinion about what works for him. Don't confuse passion and a large supporting bank roll from his works as anything more than a badge of success. Most of us could only dream on having that kind of history!
Old 9th September 2011
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DITN View Post
Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.
Everyone is perfectly well qualified to state that their own workflow works best for them! I've mixed itb and otb (lfac), and I don't think either is "better". Definitely can be different ways of working, but that doesn't make one or the other intrinsically better ... there are pros and cons with both, and which domain "wins" for a particular person in a particular scenario isn't always going to be the same.
Old 9th September 2011
  #112
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Lenzo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by americansun View Post
What is this negativity all about?


I don't care what CLA uses or not. In fact Chris Lord Alge is a master mixer and a fantastic guy! We all have the right to use whatever we want. And we all have the right to have an opinion.

My opinion is the the title of this thread "CLA telling the difference between boys and men" is not really helpful and that "some people" here a immature.
I thought Boyz 2 Men had great vocals.
L.
Old 9th September 2011
  #113
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Why would you compare using outboard over SSL channel and not do the same for DAW? If the SSL channel isn't good enough for you, surely the plugs ITB won't pass your standard. In these cases, I think this part of the debate is a wash.
Yes. But that's just it. It is a wash. Whether I use plugins or outboard gear with my DAW or use them with a LFAC, it's not as convenient as just using the SSL for everything. Which is what I was responding to. That scenario would rarely happen so the inconvenience is equal. Or similar. Mixing on an SSL would only be much faster if you only used the SSL for almost everything.

So my point is that putting FX aside, you really only need dedicated buttons for faders, pans, mutes and solos.

And if you have enough of them (8-24) you can get pretty close to the same tactile experience and benefit.

And in some ways, banking faders is even better.
Old 9th September 2011
  #114
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skybluerental's Avatar
 

the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous.
what is this 9th grade?
seriously, “what separates the men from the boys?”
that is asinine.
we are talking about art here.
i have heard great mixes come off everything from big nice consoles to small ****ty consoles, to summing boxes, to Roland VS2480’s, to ITB DAW.........

everybody has their own bag.

can’t we just leave it at that?
Old 9th September 2011
  #115
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DITN View Post
I get the feeling that all the hardcore ITB fans are people who have never had the luxury of using a console and could never afford one, and hence are trying desperately to justify ITB over a console in their own minds so they don't feel short changed.

Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.
That is true, but to play devil's advocate here, it can be said about the other side as well.

Sure, many of you have tried to work ITB and simply didn't like it. Fair enough.

But if you put 10-20 years into working on a real console, how long is a fair shot at ITB? I'd bet if you had no other option, you'd figure it out.

But many of you do have the option. So why change? You shouldn't. It's OK.

One of the biggest mixers in the world was still using Mac OS9. It works. Why change?

Are 3324's still state of the art? Of course not. But why change if it works?

No successful entity is going to change what works for them until they see the benefit.
Old 9th September 2011
  #116
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Everyone is perfectly well qualified to state that their own workflow works best for them! I've mixed itb and otb (lfac), and I don't think either is "better". Definitely can be different ways of working, but that doesn't make one or the other intrinsically better ... there are pros and cons with both, and which domain "wins" for a particular person in a particular scenario isn't always going to be the same.
There can never be a "better". We're still talking about art here.

The best tool you can have is the one that inspires you the most.

I don't care if it's two cassette decks wired up thru a realistic (radio shack) mixer.
Old 9th September 2011
  #117
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skybluerental View Post
the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous.
what is this 9th grade?
seriously, “what separates the men from the boys?”
that is asinine.
we are talking about art here.
i have heard great mixes come off everything from big nice consoles to small ****ty consoles, to summing boxes, to Roland VS2480’s, to ITB DAW.........

everybody has their own bag.

can’t we just leave it at that?
I hate when you say things better than me. heh

It doesn't matter what you use, as long as it's on a Mac. Not a PC. They suck. heh
Old 9th September 2011
  #118
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Yes, the subjectivity of it is pretty much what I was trying to express Kenny. By "better" I meant subjectively better for the person being considered, not objectively "better" ... I thought that was clear but I guess not
Old 9th September 2011
  #119
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jimmyboy7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DITN View Post
Until you have mixed on an SSL, Neve or similar, you aren't qualified to state which is better. Fact.
True, but on is able to analyze an argument from a philosophical perspective and show if said argument is demonstrably false/contradictory.

For example, the White Crow argument is a classic example of monistic propositions. Saying that unless someone has mixed on an SSL, Neve, or similar makes them unqualified to state an opinion on this topic is defeated logically with one contradiction to your statement. However, if you restated your claim to say it is highly unlikely that someone is qualified leaves enough wiggle room to be logically feasible.

The reason I am saying all of this is that the main argument here is about the advantages of a tactile mixing experience coupled with sonic qualities that inspire the mixer. One could argue that someone who has only mixed on control surfaces for DAW's and eventually get's a chance to use an SSL 4000E could say they don't like them. Would this be valid claim? A credible claim? Absolutely, because it's their perception albeit somewhat biased and based on conditioning.

In like manner, one could say that those who have always used SSL consoles also have a perception that is biased and based on conditioning as well as other motivating factors like prestige and being in an elite club. These all may be contributing factors to their opinion but I don't think it makes their opinion on this topic more valid nor do I think it means one has to have experience on these consoles to have a valid opinion.

Ultimately, there are those that have used said prestigious consoles but now use control surfaces. This alone can give one with no experience an argument from authority by simply stating that someone with experience has the same opinion they do.

With all that said, I wish I had an SSL too I actually have considered the Nucleus just to have the SSL brand in my studio
Old 9th September 2011
  #120
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Yes, the subjectivity of it is pretty much what I was trying to express Kenny. By "better" I meant subjectively better for the person being considered, not objectively "better" ... I thought that was clear but I guess not
No. I was agreeing with you. It was I who was being unclear. I was pretty much (needlessly) re-iterating what you said.
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