The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
CLA telling the difference between boys and men Control Surfaces
Old 8th September 2011
  #61
Lives for gear
 
scruffydog's Avatar
I don't think any (or at least many!!) of us will ever know what it takes to mix a record or several in a row and really do the job on time and at the highest standard possible.
CLA states that he does it instinctively and that the SSL plays a huge part in allowing this to happen....who are we to question really??!!
he must really mean it..as that recall system looks really tedious and long!!!

agreed ...not his best video...but i think it's great we get to see these guys talk about stuff...any old tosh will do!
just wish all this was around when i was starting out...
Old 8th September 2011
  #62
I enjoyed it!

I hope we can have him as a special guest for a Q & A soon. (I already asked and he said yes, I have just been lame about following it up..)

Thanks for posting it,

Old 8th September 2011
  #63
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

I think it's important to realize that just because someone is a great mixer, does not mean that they possess the ability to explain clearly what they are doing and why they are a great mixer. It's a different skill-set. Which is why mentoring is so important.

I worked under a few great mixers and I would say that I learned about 1/5th of my knowledge from them by what they conveyed to me directly. The rest involved watching what they did and interpreting that in a way that I could use constructively in my own way.

There are great teachers who may not be great mixers. But you can still learn from them. Just pick and choose what you want to absorb.

One of my favorite examples is watching Manny Ramirez hit a baseball. That dude couldn't clearly explain what bus to take to get home from the game. heh But you could learn a lot from watching him at bat. The guy has a rare gift that was placed in him. There's much to learn from watching a flower bloom that the flower has no way of telling you.

Good luck.
Old 9th September 2011
  #64
Lives for gear
 
Slikjmuzik's Avatar
 

I love listening to mixes done by CLA in an effort to shoot for that itb. I literally just run my mixes through a buss comp right now and that's it and at least 3 or 4 clients have flat out told me that they can tell I get a ton of influence and inspiration from CLA.

On another note, my world over here in Florida is completely different than what CLA provides. He does his thing for clients with seemingly endless funds from their label. I really wonder when the last time was that he did a mix for a band full of early 20's kids who work as waiters and deliver pizza?? Probably hasn't in a while. Therefore, my job is to satisfy my client, who on many occasions is also novice at recording etiquette...so that makes me a teacher in many ways as well. I need to be careful to respond to certain requests that may seem crazy, in a respectful way. Like the ones who want more than one revision without paying. The 2 worlds are different and I'm perfectly happy in my world...because I rule it and my clients love me!!
Old 9th September 2011
  #65
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
I enjoyed it!

I hope we can have him as a special guest for a Q & A soon. (I already asked and he said yes, I have just been lame about following it up..)

Thanks for posting it,

I'm glad you liked the video Jules. You'll have to heavily moderate a Q&A with CLA if it happens; he's as revered as he's hated over here.


As to those arguing a mouse is faster than a big desk. Let's say you start on a song you've never heard before. How long does it take just to raise and properly set 60 faders and 60 pans with a mouse, so you can set the right balance to get the whole picture, before moving on to further tweaks?

The fact is a console is MUCH faster to operate because you can do MANY things simultaneously, as grabbing two knobs at the same time or up to 10 faders at once. With a mouse there's just one thing at a time to do, not mentioning the precision pointing and the necessary scrolling and poping-down to locate alll the hidden stuff.

Moreover on a big desk it takes a fraction of a second to go from one task to another completely different, for instance, going from levelling a group of drum faders, to reach the filters on fader #27, while the other hand is adjusting send 5 on fader #29 and inmediately hitting the insert button for comparisons. Everything is there in front of you and the whole desk can be operated from muscle memory, which is something impossible ITB. Changes don't require the eyes AND the ears (as in DAWs) to be noticed. Stiffness and inertia make subtle or drastic changes easier and faster, etc etc.

Anybody who's used such desks knows it, and it's the reason why on every dubbing stage on the planet, despite treating audio 100% digitally, HUGE (3-4 seat) 80-200_fader digital consoles are used, at a very high expense must I add, rather than a set of (very cheap) screens and mices.
Old 9th September 2011
  #66
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Dude what are you smoking? - seriously.

Let this whole 'big consoles are quicker' thing go!

It's not even worth replying to your unconvincing dissertation...
Old 9th September 2011
  #67
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod View Post
This thread is mildly amusing.
I kind of agree with you there

As usual, Kenny G is very rational, and ... correct.
Old 9th September 2011
  #68
Lives for gear
 
Nowak's Avatar
I actually agree with CLA about sitting at a console and feeling empowered, like sitting at a grand piano rather than a small upright, it can inspire.

Stef
Old 9th September 2011
  #69
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Dude what are you smoking? - seriously.

Let this whole 'big consoles are quicker' thing go!

It's not even worth replying to your unconvincing dissertation...
If what he was saying was so ridiculous, people would not be spending 100k on control surfaces to run their DAWS.
Old 9th September 2011
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Dude Talent and tools.. period don't disconnect them... put CLA in front of a computer and you will have CLA sound with a ITB sound..

DOES A LES PAUL SOUND LIKE A STRAT? DOES A FENDER 1960 PRECISION SOUND LIKE A 2011 FENDER... COME ON FOLKS

Will a marshall sound like a fender twin...Recording tools are just like these tools.... I know Ur smarter than this...VINTAGE will never die because like antiques they have a feel .. I am never saying you can't make a record MUCH cheaper and sell millions of records.. I am saying it will ALWAYS sound like a cheaper record..
I'm pulling the Serban Ghenea card again, great mixer, all ITB. It's skill first, tools used second. Always will be.
Old 9th September 2011
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
I enjoyed it!

I hope we can have him as a special guest for a Q & A soon. (I already asked and he said yes, I have just been lame about following it up..)

Thanks for posting it,

Please do it like you did last time with everyone being able to just submit questions freely!
Old 9th September 2011
  #72
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
I would feel like an old washed up fartknocker with dinosaur equipment.
As opposed to what?
Old 9th September 2011
  #73
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanvoth View Post
Please do it like you did last time with everyone being able to just submit questions freely!
You can't be serious...

Actually, I would pay to witness that fiascoheh
Old 9th September 2011
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanvoth View Post
I'm pulling the Serban Ghenea card again, great mixer, all ITB. It's skill first, tools used second. Always will be.
Yep, but as Confucius says: "Any craftsman who wishes to do his job well must first sharpen his tools".
Old 9th September 2011
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanvoth View Post
I'm pulling the Serban Ghenea card again, great mixer, all ITB. It's skill first, tools used second. Always will be.
Yeah but dude... Serba mixes hurt my f&^%$king ears.. unless I put a pillow in front of my speaker.. Oh I forgot you soppose to just listen to music low on a computer speaker
Old 9th September 2011
  #76
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomcore View Post
His mix skills are maybe good, but he is totally ''slimy'' person to me, don't like his attitude.
"Maybe good"?
Ahhh. In this video he comes across as a confident (rightfully) and very successful person lecturing to kids drinking Mountain Dew who couldn't care less.

I've never met him in person, but on email he is a super cool guy. He's just doing a difficult job that he has been doing for decades under intense pressure and smashing it pretty much every time.
Old 9th September 2011
  #77
Gear Addict
 

He got great skills
Old 9th September 2011
  #78
Lives for gear
 
jimmyboy7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I think it's important to realize that just because someone is a great mixer, does not mean that they possess the ability to explain clearly what they are doing and why they are a great mixer. It's a different skill-set. Which is why mentoring is so important.

I worked under a few great mixers and I would say that I learned about 1/5th of my knowledge from them by what they conveyed to me directly. The rest involved watching what they did and interpreting that in a way that I could use constructively in my own way.

There are great teachers who may not be great mixers. But you can still learn from them. Just pick and choose what you want to absorb.

One of my favorite examples is watching Manny Ramirez hit a baseball. That dude couldn't clearly explain what bus to take to get home from the game. heh But you could learn a lot from watching him at bat. The guy has a rare gift that was placed in him. There's much to learn from watching a flower bloom that the flower has no way of telling you.

Good luck.
Great points as usualy Kenny!!! Personally, I liked using a large console but I like PTHD more, not from a tactile perspective but automation and workflow. As far as a gift for teaching, you obviously have that, love your videos
Old 9th September 2011
  #79
Lives for gear
 
jimmyboy7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
I enjoyed it!

I hope we can have him as a special guest for a Q & A soon. (I already asked and he said yes, I have just been lame about following it up..)

Thanks for posting it,


Can't wait for that, would love top learn from him
Old 9th September 2011
  #80
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post

As to those arguing a mouse is faster than a big desk. Let's say you start on a song you've never heard before. How long does it take just to raise and properly set 60 faders and 60 pans with a mouse, so you can set the right balance to get the whole picture, before moving on to further tweaks?

The fact is a console is MUCH faster to operate because you can do MANY things simultaneously, as grabbing two knobs at the same time or up to 10 faders at once. With a mouse there's just one thing at a time to do, not mentioning the precision pointing and the necessary scrolling and poping-down to locate alll the hidden stuff.

Moreover on a big desk it takes a fraction of a second to go from one task to another completely different, for instance, going from levelling a group of drum faders, to reach the filters on fader #27, while the other hand is adjusting send 5 on fader #29 and inmediately hitting the insert button for comparisons. Everything is there in front of you and the whole desk can be operated from muscle memory, which is something impossible ITB. Changes don't require the eyes AND the ears (as in DAWs) to be noticed. Stiffness and inertia make subtle or drastic changes easier and faster, etc etc.
Totally agree. But that can still be done on a moderately priced control surface.

I am definitely faster on a 24 fader control surface than I am on a 100+ fader SSL. I know. I've done it before. Where the assistant has to keep moving the speakers so I can stay in the sweet spot. No thanks. Isn't much fun.

CLA has very little need to change his present set up. And he won't unless he has to. Why should he? I wouldn't in his shoes. It works and his budgets support it.

But the idea that everyone should mix on an SSL because CLA does makes about as much sense as saying that everyone should release plugins with their name on them just because he does as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowak View Post
I actually agree with CLA about sitting at a console and feeling empowered, like sitting at a grand piano rather than a small upright, it can inspire.

Stef
Absolutely. And if it does inspire you (which it has for me in the past) by all means, try to achieve that. It's a blast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyboy7 View Post
Great points as usualy Kenny!!! Personally, I liked using a large console but I like PTHD more, not from a tactile perspective but automation and workflow. As far as a gift for teaching, you obviously have that, love your videos
Thanks.
Old 9th September 2011
  #81
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Great video I only have a couple of problems - I really would not call SSL automation slick I always found SSL automation slow and cumbersome. Lining up all the knobs for a mix recall - that is so 1980.
I hated it back then and it's still looks slow to me but when you have and assistant doing it for you - I suppose it's not too bad.
I am not sure what he means buy Pro Tools being slow to navigate - then use of markers for instant navigation to any point in the song makes it pretty slick.
I really have no speed issues when I hit play/stop/ff/rewind on my Icon either.
I find it a lot faster when need to jump around the song vs waiting for tape when I use my 24 track.
Everyone has to adapt to there own personal needs and work flows.
Old 9th September 2011
  #82
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Don't you guys have work to do? Why are you wasting time on this crap?

I'm just sayin'

-R
Old 9th September 2011
  #83
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
I, and everybody else I know who's ever used an SSL, Neve, API, AMEK,...etc, can only concur.
Eh, not so much. You're overthinking it.
Old 9th September 2011
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerc View Post

I wonder what Serban Ghenea would have to say in response to CLA's comments that people who use computers to mix are slow and "telephone operator" like!

"Please insert 100 $ for another 60 minutes" ?
Old 9th September 2011
  #85
Lives for gear
 
hereticskeptic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerc View Post
It all depends on what you're used to and how you've become accustomed to working. Yes I'm sure it would take CLA or yourself 10x longer on a computer, but doing a rough mix on an SSL would take me 10x longer.

This whole argument is like trying to tell a Left handed person that she/he should write with their right hand because it's so much better/quicker!
Bingo
Old 9th September 2011
  #86
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
"When you have the big desk in front of you, you feel empowered, to be in control of something. When you have a screen and a mouse and a KB, you feel like.. a telephone operator."


I, and everybody else I know who's ever used an SSL, Neve, API, AMEK,...etc, can only concur.
I´m not a woman
but this is just a totally inadequate macho mixer statement.

It´s like saying only porsche drivers are driving a car .

To feel "empowered to be in control of something"
just do some yoga, learn cooking or maybe change something in your thought pattern.
It´s cheaper and saves our planet from tons of stupid plastic / iron waste.
Old 9th September 2011
  #87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
The fact is a console is MUCH faster to operate because you can do MANY things simultaneously, as grabbing two knobs at the same time or up to 10 faders at once. With a mouse there's just one thing at a time to do, not mentioning the precision pointing and the necessary scrolling and poping-down to locate alll the hidden stuff.
wow, up to 10 faders at once ? I can move 100 faders with just my one finger in a DAW. And can you grab channel 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 19 and 32 and 61 with two hands? How many pan changes you can do at the same time ? Up to 2 ? Not bad, I can do 100 with one finger. How much time it takes to make a full recall of your desk ? More than 2 seconds ? Man...
Old 9th September 2011
  #88
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Yeah but dude... Serba mixes hurt my f&^%$king ears.. unless I put a pillow in front of my speaker.. Oh I forgot you soppose to just listen to music low on a computer speaker
Lol! Glad it us not just me then. Heard a mix of a Pink track by Serban and my ears are still ringing! - revenge of the 2k frequency! aaarghh " I give in - you win you win, please stop!'

This thread is silly really - it's all just about workflow. If an expensive tonne of heated plastic and metal along with an extra pair of hands will get you there quicker than a screen a DAW a controller and a mouse then fine. Gushing SSL eulogies are fine too - but step away from the ridgid absolutism.

Or I will play you 'God is a DJ'.

Aaaargh!!
Old 9th September 2011
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearNerd View Post
Yes, he seems to be quite full of himself and stuck to his old ways, like most mixing engineers actually.

I wouldn´t use that console even if I got it for free. I would feel like an old washed up fartknocker with dinosaur equipment.

ITB (without DSP) native rules!
at least he is full of himself AND successful.
which is infinitely more tolerable than someone who is full of themselves for no apparant reason whatsoever

while some people are sitting at home whinging about 32 bit plugins being unusable there are some "old washed up fartknockers" mixing down hugely successful projects on "dinosaur equipment" day in and day out
Old 9th September 2011
  #90
Gear Head
 
TheBankInc's Avatar
 

When I was coming up, I used to listen and learn from those with experience and knowledge and respect where they were coming from and try to use it to create my own way to solve problems. A lot of you new engineers/ mixers just sound like jealous haters. If you've never got paid to used a console, please don't talk about it. You sound like virgins describing porn. DAW's are amazing tools, but not the only ones. Eventually they WILL do YOUR job too. Mark my words. A client asked me recently why I had so much "old stuff" when a computer could do the same thing.
I told him that while our computer is an amazing tool that does everything, it doesn't do everything well. As an example, I imported a song from our library that he knows and I let him tweak a few different eq's in our daw. He said they sounded pretty good. Then I inserted a Trident S20 on the bus and told him to try that. As soon as he turned the knobs, a smile came across his face and he said "you're using this on my track, right?"
I like daws for what they do best and other gear for what it does best. I'd never hate on a daw, but I have to admit 95% of these ITB mixes sound flat and lifeless without feeling or balls. That's not what makes me buy records, or get excited. Some records, like R. Kelly's "Love Letter" sound great in this context. YMMV
If you feel a recall is too much work for you, maybe you're in the wrong business?
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump