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Up to 2k for 251 type sound...help me choose Condenser Microphones
Old 6th September 2011
  #31
Gear Nut
 
oliver archut's Avatar
 

Hello Karloff,

it seems that you not 100% correct informed, AKG might have build the ElaM250/1 but the microphone has been developed at Telefunken in Hannover. The historic Telefunken company was very good with given credit to the inventors/original manufactures, Schoeps mics even labeled Telefunken were advertized Telefunken "System Schoeps" same for Neumann developed mics, they also displayed the Schoeps or Neumann logo on the mic, you will not find it on a 250/251.

Will see to find the time to upload a better picture of the Telefunken drawing, that shows the different porting plate, most people I think call it resonator plate. The main difference is the hole size and hole place compared to the normal CK12 that AKG manufactured.

Please forgive me that we do not name the company that does the capsule work for us in china, normally we name our suppliers, so the customer knows were the product is made, in that case the company does not want to get attention, but I can tell you it is not one of company you named.

Most of AMI as well as other products we are involved with are based upon the original Telefunken drawings, that I took home during my time working at AEG-Daimler Benz, formally AEG-Telefunken. The original Telefunken company is long gone and as far as I know most of the documents I have did not survived in any of the many follow up companies.
As many people know I am a big fan of the historic Telefunken company, I invite anyone to come by and chat about it and if you want to take a look at original blue prints, copies of production data and all kind of original memorabilia that you can not find anywhere else, come by here in Kansas (please call ahead).

Marketing hype? I do not think that we need to hype anything, the products that we develop speak for themselves. Most of our dealer have an easy return policy, so I invite anyone of check out an UM25 or any other product we are involved with, check out the real thing and then post the experience on this or any other forum. That helps to get rid of speculation and half baked information.

Best regards,

Oliver
Old 7th September 2011
  #32
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver archut View Post
Hello Karloff,

it seems that you not 100% correct informed, AKG might have build the ElaM250/1 but the microphone has been developed at Telefunken in Hannover. The historic Telefunken company was very good with given credit to the inventors/original manufactures, Schoeps mics even labeled Telefunken were advertized Telefunken "System Schoeps" same for Neumann developed mics, they also displayed the Schoeps or Neumann logo on the mic, you will not find it on a 250/251.

Will see to find the time to upload a better picture of the Telefunken drawing, that shows the different porting plate, most people I think call it resonator plate. The main difference is the hole size and hole place compared to the normal CK12 that AKG manufactured.

Please forgive me that we do not name the company that does the capsule work for us in china, normally we name our suppliers, so the customer knows were the product is made, in that case the company does not want to get attention, but I can tell you it is not one of company you named.

Most of AMI as well as other products we are involved with are based upon the original Telefunken drawings, that I took home during my time working at AEG-Daimler Benz, formally AEG-Telefunken. The original Telefunken company is long gone and as far as I know most of the documents I have did not survived in any of the many follow up companies.
As many people know I am a big fan of the historic Telefunken company, I invite anyone to come by and chat about it and if you want to take a look at original blue prints, copies of production data and all kind of original memorabilia that you can not find anywhere else, come by here in Kansas (please call ahead).

Marketing hype? I do not think that we need to hype anything, the products that we develop speak for themselves. Most of our dealer have an easy return policy, so I invite anyone of check out an UM25 or any other product we are involved with, check out the real thing and then post the experience on this or any other forum. That helps to get rid of speculation and half baked information.

Best regards,

Oliver
+10000

We have no need to hype JJ Audio as well. We use Tab funkenwerk T14s to make our C12 and 251, which sound exceptionally good with their basic Chinese capsules or their high end counterparts.

Carloff I'm sure you would agree that the headamps are exceptionally important in the sound of these microphones, if the only part that is non OEM is the capsule then a capsule similar in sound or inspired in sound by the OEM part is still going to approach that sound you are seeking in some shape or form.

Case in point, put an M7 in an accurate C12 circuit with real NOS tube and Tab T14. It will sound amazing.

Put an accurately inspired Chinese K47 in the same circuit and of course it will not sound exactly the same but it will still sound very very good. Perhaps not to those who listen with their eyes but to people seeking an exceptionally good sound they will find many things to like about a mic that shows its no slouch in the ring.

I remain committed to the best sound possible and so far in my experience Tab's transformers in our 251s and C12s make the same Chinese capsules that people have blamed for the poor performance over the years, sound like CHAMPIONS in the ring.

To be honest any well designed headamp and PSU combination is where the bulk of the sound/action lies in a tube mic, the capsule (cream cheese, soy or whipped cream) is icing on the cake.

Peace
Illumination

Last edited by illacov; 7th September 2011 at 03:39 AM.. Reason: WHOOPS!
Old 7th September 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver archut View Post
AKG might have build the ElaM250/1 but the microphone has been developed at Telefunken in Hannover.
...
The main difference is the hole size and hole place compared to the normal CK12 that AKG manufactured.

Interesting, so you say Telefunken designed a mic that was then only built by AKG? I always thought Telefunken asked AKG to make a mic (to Telefunken´s wishlist) and AKG came up with an AKG design that fulfilled their wishlist - this is the normal way I would think OEM manufacturing still works today. And the "normal" AKG CK12 capsule as far as I am informed does not exist, as it developed from the original design to the next and then another one, getting brighter quite unintentionally. So I thought that the ELAM got the AKG designed and manufactured relatively bright CK12 capsule, together with a grill that produced another peak in the upper mids and a built in bass-rolloff in the electronics - hence the sound difference to the C12: more in your face in the upper registers and tighter/leaner in the lows.
So I would be surprised if Telefunken designed the ELAM, unless one would also say that the U47 Tele has also been designed by them and not Neumann. Maybe it´s a matter of defining the word "designing".

ps - I got most of my knowledge about this from these old Stephen Paul articles, wonderful information:
Vintage Microphones, Part 3: AKG C-12, C-24 and Telefunken 250/251


Best,
Flo
Old 7th September 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 
ddageek's Avatar
 

Flo I always got the impression From SP's article and everything I have read and been told that the "wishlist" was more of a fairly specific design spec. Telefunken knew what they liked and disliked about the C12, and could have pretty much built everything but the CK12 on their own.
In fact some of the old AKG guys said it was a symbiotic relationship because Telefunken was in fact an OEM for many AKG parts!

The ELAm was a joint development like the M49 between Neumann and the German Broadcast, but I was told Telefunken had final approval on everything so yes original Telefunken and AKG labeled drawings would most likely coexist.
The same would happen today if you ordered a variant of any of the Chinese Mics Some Drawings would have your Label some your OEM (it might just be a Label Change but it takes time and revisions on both sides)!
Old 7th September 2011
  #35
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
That´s very interesting, thanks, learned something new!
Old 7th September 2011
  #36
Gear Addict
 
lane thaw's Avatar
 

+1 or +2 or whatever on the Lawson L251.

But . . . .I have tracked vocals on a pristine Telefunken Elam 251 and nothing I have ever used since then has matched it.
Old 7th September 2011
  #37
Gear Nut
 
oliver archut's Avatar
 

Hello Flo,

pretty close to how ddageek has worded it, there is a bunch of info on the 251 history in the "Ela Tip" booklets Telefunken published in the old days, all in german and hardly any pics and more difficult to find than the mics themselves.
The documents I have, point out that some changes were done to the capsule as well as an newly developed circuit that incorporated the Telefunken developed T14/1 (with low end cut that was needed for FM use/IRT specs) that was made by Telefunken up to 1965, at that time Haufe took over the production of the T14/1.
But even having the drawings, the real world shows us now over 40 years later that AKG did a bunch of revisions over the production time, not just the capsule. The C12 and related Ela M25x have the most revisions compared to the other vintage mics.
One of the big challenges is to find two alike and there are a bunch of different opinions what revision sounds the best.

Best regards,

Oliver
Old 8th September 2011
  #38
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

@Oliver, considering the special PSU for the C12, it always amazes me how "bright," people think the C12 is.

The 251 by contrast is definitely my favorite of the two twins of destruction, the C12 is a big hit for us though (thanks to your transformers) hehheh

I think the 251 needs to be exposed to more ears.

Peace
Illumination
Old 8th September 2011
  #39
Lives for gear
I've got a brand new ADK Custom Shop 251 (2 months old) that I have decided to sell to help fund my Telefunken purchase if anybody is interested. It's a lovely mic just PM me.
Old 8th September 2011
  #40
Gear Head
 
Zach Adam's Avatar
Weird.

Hey guys.
thank you all for the responses and the information, I definitely feel like I've learned some useful info about the history of those mics.

I'm in the process of trying to get a shoot out session.
I'm producing a major label artist that has a very distinctive vocal sound. (she had a few number one hits in the past)

I've narrowed down the mics that i want to try out:

Blackspade UM25
Telefunken AR-51
Advanced Audio CM-12SE
JJ Audio the "Dutch" 251 (with tim campbell capsule)
ADK Custom 251j

I'm in contact with a few audio brokers to get mics to try out.

The People at Blackspade were super nice and professional, and I got an immediate response from them.

Will get a tele from broker

now... Advanced Audio... I already bought a few weeks ago a mic from them (CM-54) which I'm enjoying. but... they have not even responded to my email. (5 days ago)

JJ Audio... same thing. sent them a message through their website and here on GS, nada.

will send the ADK people an email soon.

It's funny to me that people don't respond as they could uhmmm, sell a microphone. and I'm involved with many productions (some of them with high profile artists)

hope to hear from those people soon.
If not, their loss.

anyway, thanx again everyone.
Old 8th September 2011
  #41
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

Another big thumbs-up for the Advanced Audio CM-12SE. And to think I almost bought a Tele 251 for 10,000 scoots. Ouch!!
Old 9th September 2011
  #42
Gear Head
 
Zach Adam's Avatar
still no word
Old 21st September 2011
  #43
Lives for gear
 

I'm a little late to the party, but, oh well.

I was at a studio last night (transferring some files) that has a variety of ADK mics (the 47, 67, 251, C12, etc.) and the 251 sounded really, really nice. The engineer played me sound clips that he recorded (which are actually on ADK's website) with a couple different artists. The C12 sounded bright with a real open airy top end - also really nice. The 251 didn't have the air of the C12 - but sounded great. He said that they're both nice, but the 251 seems to work on more people. I'm leaning for it to possibly be my next mic purchase.

On another note, the files I brought over were recorded with a JJ Audio Akita and he stated that they sounded good. I haven't heard JJ Audio's 251, or the others mentioned earlier in the thread, but just saying I'd be very suprised if someone were dissapointed by the ADK.

And I would try calling these places as opposed to email. I always find phone contact way better in situations where you want to inquire about a product.

Old 17th October 2011
  #44
Lives for gear
Hey Oliver,
don't know if you're reading this, but might blackspade perhaps consider an 'R' version of the UM25 with, perhaps, a Tim Campbell ct12 capsule and an AC701 or NOS 6072a?

The mic looks great btw and I really want to try one out, but seeing the R version of the um17 makes me wonder if there is an extra inch to go, and the mic could be even closer tonally to the original.

Tar, Tom
Old 17th October 2011
  #45
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by automatom View Post
Hey Oliver,
don't know if you're reading this, but might blackspade perhaps consider an 'R' version of the UM25 with, perhaps, a Tim Campbell ct12 capsule and an AC701 or NOS 6072a?

The mic looks great btw and I really want to try one out, but seeing the R version of the um17 makes me wonder if there is an extra inch to go, and the mic could be even closer tonally to the original.
Hi Tom,

We will be producing the UM25C which will include a Tim Campbell CT12 capsule. We don't have plans to change the tube at this time.

Sincerely,

Joe Hauck
AMI, Inc.
Old 17th October 2011
  #46
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Joe - I thought a 6072 tube can be swapped in without a mod? Is that true? Or is it possible you are going with something like a Tele ef732 tube? I had one in a Bock 151, and the tube was great.
And finally, is it possible to upgrade the capsulte to a Tim Campbell capsule when you have them available? (It is possible many people will be so happy with their mic as is, that they will not want to do that).
I heard Johnkenn's samples and thought this mic sounded great - whatever was in that one.
Best,
AB

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyhavoc View Post
Hi Tom,

We will be producing the UM25C which will include a Tim Campbell CT12 capsule. We don't have plans to change the tube at this time.

Sincerely,

Joe Hauck
AMI, Inc.
Old 18th October 2011
  #47
Let me ask you fellows this...

1. Can I take (or send to a notable builder) my (very early) c12a and convert it to a C12, or extremely close proximity thereof?
and
2. Will I be drawn and quartered for even thinking such a thing?

well... bring on the punishment
Old 18th October 2011
  #48
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Joe - I thought a 6072 tube can be swapped in without a mod? Is that true? Or is it possible you are going with something like a Tele ef732 tube? I had one in a Bock 151, and the tube was great.
And finally, is it possible to upgrade the capsulte to a Tim Campbell capsule when you have them available? (It is possible many people will be so happy with their mic as is, that they will not want to do that).
I heard Johnkenn's samples and thought this mic sounded great - whatever was in that one.
Best,
AB
Hi AB,

The UM25 uses a NOS Telefunken tube that takes 14V so one would not be able to just swap a 6072 directly in without some modifications. We chose this tube because it sounds great, has a very low noise floor and right now, we don't have to worry about competition for supplies.

Yes, the stock unit can be upgraded to a UM25C after the fact. The capsule that Tim is making for us has some minor modifications one being screw mount placement. So it is possible that if you order one of Tim's stock CT12's you will need to get a different capsule mount. Or you could contact us and we could install it for you. I don't have a price for that service at this time.

Let me know if you have any additional questions!

Sincerely,

Joe Hauck
AMI, Inc.
Old 18th October 2011
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by REX View Post
Chris Lago and Dr. Luke both use The Manley Ref
Hey I don't, I usually use a Sony c800g, Rode K2 or JZ BH-2 but yes, I am in the process of acquiring a Manley Ref C but I'm still thinking about it, because I can get the c800g when needed, and the K2 + BH-2 that I have in my home studio are too good for me right now to blow it on an expensive mic.

And I'm not at the level of Dr. Luke but thanks for putting both our names in the same sentence!
Old 18th October 2011
  #50
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
Let me ask you fellows this...

1. Can I take (or send to a notable builder) my (very early) c12a and convert it to a C12, or extremely close proximity thereof?
No.

The body of a C-12a [early, middle, or late] is more like that of a 414 than a C-12. The headbasket is totally different and will net totally different results [even if you could jam all the amplifier electronics into a C-12a body -- which you can't].

About the only thing you could do would be to harvest the CK-12 capsule [assuming there is one still in there... AKG replaced hundreds of "brass" CK-12s with their Teflon ringed wonder over the years] and either find a C-12 kit and install that capsule or buy something that had the body styling of a C-12; gut it; and build a C-12 within the body parts of the mic that had C-12 like styling [which still wouldn't be a C-12 as none of the mic I've seen with a similar "body styling" to a C-12 have the same architecture on the headbasket... but it could come out pretty close].

If I were going to recommend you do anything... it would be to leave the C-12a stock [except for the requisite routine maintenance] and love it for what it is... a great mic in its own right.

Peace
Old 18th October 2011
  #51
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
No.

The body of a C-12a [early, middle, or late] is more like that of a 414 than a C-12. The headbasket is totally different and will net totally different results [even if you could jam all the amplifier electronics into a C-12a body -- which you can't].

About the only thing you could do would be to harvest the CK-12 capsule [assuming there is one still in there... AKG replaced hundreds of "brass" CK-12s with their Teflon ringed wonder over the years] and either find a C-12 kit and install that capsule or buy something that had the body styling of a C-12; gut it; and build a C-12 within the body parts of the mic that had C-12 like styling [which still wouldn't be a C-12 as none of the mic I've seen with a similar "body styling" to a C-12 have the same architecture on the headbasket... but it could come out pretty close].

If I were going to recommend you do anything... it would be to leave the C-12a stock [except for the requisite routine maintenance] and love it for what it is... a great mic in its own right.

Peace
Werd. +1000

Peace
Illumination
Old 18th October 2011
  #52
Lives for gear
 
toneguru's Avatar
Double werd...

Please do not rape your C12a in a Frankenstein effort to create a better mic.

The C12a is one of the great all around mics of its era. From drums to vocals and most anything else you may need to record it will shine.

If the C12a is stock and up to snuff keep it or trade it to me.

- Cheers
Old 31st December 2011
  #53
Gear Head
 
Zach Adam's Avatar
Got a telefunken AR-51 which I'm enjoying very much! It fits my artist's voice beautifully! And is definitely a different color in my mic rack. As soon as a single comes out... I'll post a link
Old 31st December 2011
  #54
Gear Addict
 
Ryan Gregory's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Adam View Post
Got a telefunken AR-51 which I'm enjoying very much! It fits my artist's voice beautifully! And is definitely a different color in my mic rack. As soon as a single comes out... I'll post a link
great to see that your search ended well! I am personally right now trying to make my mind up between the AR-51 and the AK-47. I wasn't sure which way to go but I took a look at the frequency response charts of each and I notice that the AR-51 has a dip right around 2k… that seems weird to me, as many times I find myself putting a slight EQ boost in at around 2k (maybe 1-2 db) with my C414B/XLS that I am currently using, whereas the AK-47 does not. Also the AR-51 has more of a boost in the highs and I don't think I need that much of one.

Hey Fletcher, what do you think? I'm recording male hip-hop vocals mostly, and both female and male *singing vocals as well. I'm leaning towards the 47 for sure.
Old 31st December 2011
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Adam View Post
Hey guys.
thank you all for the responses and the information, I definitely feel like I've learned some useful info about the history of those mics.

I'm in the process of trying to get a shoot out session.
I'm producing a major label artist that has a very distinctive vocal sound. (she had a few number one hits in the past)

I've narrowed down the mics that i want to try out:

Blackspade UM25
Telefunken AR-51
Advanced Audio CM-12SE
JJ Audio the "Dutch" 251 (with tim campbell capsule)
ADK Custom 251j

I'm in contact with a few audio brokers to get mics to try out.

The People at Blackspade were super nice and professional, and I got an immediate response from them.

Will get a tele from broker
If you're looking for a 251 sound, the AR-51 is really not that. I have one it has a more forward upper midrange and is a little light in the bottom end.
Greg Blaisdell has audio clips comparing a bunch of the telefunken mics posted, so you can hear the difference your self.
Telefunken Mic Comparison - Telefunken 251e, AR-51, CU-29 Copperhead Mics
Old 1st January 2012
  #56
Here for the gear
 

C12 capsules

Newbie here. Not strictly related to foregoing, but here goes.

Have pair AKG 414EB's with what appear to be earlier brass surround, non plastic C12 capsules. I'm considering replacing the plastic capsules of a "so-called C-12VR" matched pair with the brass capsules from the C 414EB's or, on the other hand, insertion of the brass C12 capsules into the heads of CK-4 screw on assemblies for use with the C-480 mic amplifier. Like most observers, the C-12VR isn't the same sound as with the brass capsule. Does anyone like the sound of the C-12VR?
Thoughts? And thanks
Old 1st January 2012
  #57
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornpipe View Post
Newbie here. Not strictly related to foregoing, but here goes.

Have pair AKG 414EB's with what appear to be earlier brass surround, non plastic C12 capsules. I'm considering replacing the plastic capsules of a "so-called C-12VR" matched pair with the brass capsules from the C 414EB's or, on the other hand, insertion of the brass C12 capsules into the heads of CK-4 screw on assemblies for use with the C-480 mic amplifier. Like most observers, the C-12VR isn't the same sound as with the brass capsule. Does anyone like the sound of the C-12VR?
Thoughts? And thanks
My thought is that you really should start a new thread, probably in the geekslutz forum, for this.

You'll probably get more useful information from that.
Aric
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