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U47fet on kick ... What's the magic?
Old 5th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
shrimpbait's Avatar
 

U47fet on kick ... What's the magic?

Just curious if anyone can describe what makes it so good compared to others. I have never used one but does it just have a certain magic to it? Compared to other popular LDC's for kick duties?

Thanks
Old 5th September 2011
  #2
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
It can handle low frequency, strong transient signals very well. You'll find them hanging out just outside of the back head of a kick.

Nice, strong, tight low end. Add an inside kick mic (RE-20 or 421 work great) for the beater and you've got a pretty great kick sound (don't forget to flip the phase of both of those. Maybe as a few MS of delay to time them into the rest of the kit).
Old 5th September 2011
  #3
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Not sure what the trick is, I have placed a D112, 421 etc inside the kick and the u47 about 2-4 inches away from the kick and get amazing sound. Take the u47 away and you lose about 75 percent of a great tone, punch.

Sweet.
Old 5th September 2011
  #4
I like to use them when I'm in a big studio that has them, but I don't have one at home and have gotten great results using similar techniques with other microphones. Usually a 421 inside for the attack, and then a decent LDC outside in the right spot to capture the low end thump. I've had great results with the Soundelux U195 (now "Bock Audio") as well as the AT 4047.

Sometimes, though, you don't want all that extra kit bleed that you would get from an LDC outside the kick drum. You can read lots of stories and see photos from classic recordings where they built tunnels and such to try to shield off some of the rest of the kit from the outside microphone. However, something that works even better, when you don't want that bleed, is a sub-kick. Basically a woofer from an NS-10 wired up as a microphone. One of the session drummers I regularly use has his own Yamaha Sub-Kick and I love using that when he is here. Other studios that have sent me tracks to mix also use the sub-kick, or home made version, and I find that I often prefer using that (in conjunction with a good inside kick track) to something like the U47. Usually, that's all I'm looking for from the outside microphone anyway, is the really deep low end thump. The attack and a decent part of the tone (when needed) I get from the inside mic. I don't stick my inside mic as far in as a lot of people... I get it just barely inside the hole most of the time, often with much of the back end sticking outside the hole (421), so I can get a bit more tone when needed.

For heavier rock and pop, you mostly just want that thump and clicky attack anyway. However, if doing jazz or something where you want a more natural sound, then, yes, I prefer a nice LDC outside the kit... and then I usually don't mind the bleed anyway since it adds to the vibe.
Old 5th September 2011
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTuxedo View Post
It can handle low frequency, strong transient signals very well. You'll find them hanging out just outside of the back head of a kick.

Nice, strong, tight low end. Add an inside kick mic (RE-20 or 421 work great) for the beater and you've got a pretty great kick sound (don't forget to flip the phase of both of those. Maybe as a few MS of delay to time them into the rest of the kit).
youre flipping on the inside mic and the outside mic? to put them out of phase with the rest of the kit mics, and this cleans up the low end on the overall kit mix?
Old 5th September 2011
  #6
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recorder2 View Post
youre flipping on the inside mic and the outside mic? to put them out of phase with the rest of the kit mics, and this cleans up the low end on the overall kit mix?
Other than the underside snare mic, I like to think of it as putting them in phase with the rest of the mics.

Think about what the other mics are aiming towards...

Actually, with consideration of the rest of the mics in a full bands recording, I'd flip all the other mics on a drum set to match the incoming signals....

And yes, both...
Old 17th September 2011
  #7
Quote:
Think about what the other mics are aiming towards...
Alex is right on. This is EVERYTHING.

-A
Old 17th September 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by musictech View Post
I like to use them when I'm in a big studio that has them, but I don't have one at home and have gotten great results using similar techniques with other microphones. Usually a 421 inside for the attack, and then a decent LDC outside in the right spot to capture the low end thump. I've had great results with the Soundelux U195 (now "Bock Audio") as well as the AT 4047.

Sometimes, though, you don't want all that extra kit bleed that you would get from an LDC outside the kick drum. You can read lots of stories and see photos from classic recordings where they built tunnels and such to try to shield off some of the rest of the kit from the outside microphone. However, something that works even better, when you don't want that bleed, is a sub-kick. Basically a woofer from an NS-10 wired up as a microphone. One of the session drummers I regularly use has his own Yamaha Sub-Kick and I love using that when he is here. Other studios that have sent me tracks to mix also use the sub-kick, or home made version, and I find that I often prefer using that (in conjunction with a good inside kick track) to something like the U47. Usually, that's all I'm looking for from the outside microphone anyway, is the really deep low end thump. The attack and a decent part of the tone (when needed) I get from the inside mic. I don't stick my inside mic as far in as a lot of people... I get it just barely inside the hole most of the time, often with much of the back end sticking outside the hole (421), so I can get a bit more tone when needed.

For heavier rock and pop, you mostly just want that thump and clicky attack anyway. However, if doing jazz or something where you want a more natural sound, then, yes, I prefer a nice LDC outside the kit... and then I usually don't mind the bleed anyway since it adds to the vibe.
I've always found the sub/ speaker thing to be too slow. As far as bleed from the rest of the kit, use a LPF
Old 17th September 2011
  #9
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Joram's Avatar
 

U47fet on kick ... What's the magic?

It just works with kick drums. Hard to describe in words.
Old 18th September 2011
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
I've always found the sub/ speaker thing to be too slow. As far as bleed from the rest of the kit, use a LPF
In the few times that I've used them, I haven't had a problem with them being too slow. Not looking for any attack from them anyway... just that low end thump.

But, I don't own a subkick, so when I record in my own studio, I do put an LDC outside the kick and just use a LPF... I'm not into creating tunnels or anything like that.
Old 18th September 2011
  #11
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Showcase's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimpbait View Post
Just curious if anyone can describe what makes it so good compared to others. I have never used one but does it just have a certain magic to it? Compared to other popular LDC's for kick duties?

Thanks
As redtoxedo said, it can handle the lows really well, but I dont doubt other LDC mics can do this, or even better, dont think there is a special magic to it!

I use it outside, and usually compress it pretty hard to give it less attack and longer sustain!
I think most of the people use it together with other mics, just to enhance low end but I guess there is a bunch of mics that can do this, or even better!
Old 18th September 2011
  #12
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Fet47 is really hyper-cardiod. That helps tame front of kit bleed, which if I had to guess, really contributed strongly to hte mic "working well" in front of a kick drum. That coupled with its ability to handle SPL well, and having two methods for reducing its output to the console, it would be worth trying out in that application. People did, and were happy.

I am sure that other mics would work just fine and do what the Fet47 does, but I don't know any that have that combinations of features. Would a real 47 sound good? Yes. Would a console channel be able to handle it? Probably only if the mic went into the line input. Would a 67 sound good there? I bet it would, and it has a 10db pad (though its a true carded mic and captures more of the rest of the kit).

I think people get too worked up about these things though to be honest.

Comparing my Fet to a few real 47s, the Fet is dryer tonally and more 2 dimensional sounding. Tube 47 works just beautifully in front of a kick too.

EDIT:

This just got me thinking. . . . I have never thrown an M49 in hyper-cardioid in front of a kick, (only behind the drum throne). I shall try this.
Old 18th September 2011
  #13
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wait, you're saying as standard practice to flip the phase of kick drum mics, just as you would the under-snare mic? i've never heard this before. seems like the kick mics wouldn't need to be flipped since they are pointing towards the drummer, just like the snare mics, tom mics, etc.
Old 18th September 2011
  #14
bee
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bee's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
I've always found the sub/ speaker thing to be too slow. As far as bleed from the rest of the kit, use a LPF
I hear ya...sometimes a transient designer can help this.
Old 19th September 2011
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
seems like the kick mics wouldn't need to be flipped since they are pointing towards the drummer, just like the snare mics, tom mics, etc.
Um... really? Think about it... Where does the tom get hit? Where does the kick get hit? Look up compression and rarefaction...
Old 19th September 2011
  #16
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Marcocet's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Companda View Post
Um... really? Think about it... Where does the tom get hit? Where does the kick get hit? Look up compression and rarefaction...
True, but only if the mics are exactly the same distance from the contact of the beater and the kick drum.

Personally I just listen. Flip the polarity, if it sounds better then good. If not then flip it back.
Old 19th September 2011
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcocet View Post
True, but only if the mics are exactly the same distance from the contact of the beater and the kick drum.

Personally I just listen. Flip the polarity, if it sounds better then good. If not then flip it back.
+1
We don't have any "rule" regarding polarity of mics. We start with them all in normal polarity and spend more time getting the mics in proper position so that there are not any phase issues to begin with. But, I'll always check to see which polarity position sounds best. Sometimes, if you are using a lot of EQ and other plugs when mixing, that can affect the phase, and you might end up flipping the polarity again when mixing.
Old 19th September 2011
  #18
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
loving the new reissue Bock ifet on kick.
no mic inside needed..3-6 inches from front head looking into the hole at the beater.
done.
natural,big,punchy w/ plenty of attack/presence
Old 19th September 2011
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Third Eye's Avatar
 

I've not had the opportunity to use a 47 on kick. We use our Shure KSM353 for outside kick. It sounds great, much better than the Yamaha sub-kick we were using.
Old 20th September 2011
  #20
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sonic dogg's Avatar
I've built five sub-kik's now and have used the Yamaha. I can see where the reaction to the Yamaha as being a bit 'slow' could come from. I think they are too. I found a 4" speaker to be interesting but a little less lowend thump and now have settled on the 6" replacement speaker for a Fender Champ. Its tight and quicker than the Yamaha. Lots of big low end that takes devices well.
Old 20th September 2011
  #21
Here for the gear
Never had the pleasure with a FET47... but for closed kick drums, my favorite killer LDC is a 414 [B-ULS, usually in card]

And as far as polarity... +1 to just listening, and spending some good quality time with it! Certainly consider the consequences before and while setting up mics.. but don't let it give you preconceived notions before listening! The truth is that there's way too much interference for us to possibly fully understand the consequences of everything. And then there's delaying the mics..... you see where this is going! Ya can't know more than you know
Old 20th September 2011
  #22
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikoo69 View Post
wait, you're saying as standard practice to flip the phase of kick drum mics, just as you would the under-snare mic? i've never heard this before. seems like the kick mics wouldn't need to be flipped since they are pointing towards the drummer, just like the snare mics, tom mics, etc.
Every mic in a multi mic set up should be listened to with the polarity reversed to see if the sound/phase relationship improves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcocet View Post
True, but only if the mics are exactly the same distance from the contact of the beater and the kick drum.

Personally I just listen. Flip the polarity, if it sounds better then good. If not then flip it back.
yep
Old 20th September 2011
  #23
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Every mic in a multi mic set up should be listened to with the polarity reversed to see if the sound/phase relationship improves.
It is really in everyone's best interest to "click" the polarity of every mic prior to use so you have the knowledge that every mic is coming into the pre-amps in positive polarity... and then experimenting with where [and how] to flip the polarity... or whether it might be beneficial to use something like a Littlelabs "IBP".

I realize that a lot of sessions don't have this kind of time luxury in which case you do what ya gotta do... but in something of a 'perfect world' this kind of time would be spent and expended toward the achievement of the goal.

Peace
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