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PT Ruined The New Queens Of The Stone Age Control Surfaces
Old 28th August 2002
  #1
Gear Head
 

PT Ruined The New Queens Of The Stone Age

So let me start off by saying I love Pro Tools. I live it everyday and spend more time with it then anything else in my life thats not attachted to me. But What the **** was Adam Kasper thinking when he mixed and tracked this record. This is one of the rawest most amasing bands around and this record has some of the most intense performances I have heard in forever. Byut he totally ****ed it up. Those guitar sounds are the sound equivalent to grabbing your ankles in a prison shower. You can hear at the amp those sounds wer raw and totally ruled and now they are just sasmooth and sterile dark. Then lets get started on the drums WHY THE ****ED WOULD YOU TRIGGER EVERY HIT DAVE GROHL DOES????????? And when they arent triggered the drum sound is horendous! The mixes have a lot of the calling cards of mixing internally in Pro Tools which is a damn shame. I usually find the talk of pro tools ruining music really boring but as you can tell if you read this far i am pissed and needed to vent. Ihavent looked foward to a recor dlike this in a while. Thank god the songs rock cause this recording is the worst.
Old 28th August 2002
  #2
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

I have not bought the album yet but seriously thrashed/loved/adored R and am looking forward to this one!

I thought Adam Kasper was a stringent tapelsut like me!

Perhaps he has changed his way... last album wasa stricyl 2" and neve affair..

I wonder if it has changed?

any info?


PEACE
Wiggy
Old 29th August 2002
  #3
Just because Pro Tools was used in the process, doesn't mean it was mixed in it. The problem with rock mixed in Pro Tools is that people obsess themselves with trying to make it sound like analog, that they take away from its strengths. Also sometimes its the mastering that flattens it out and makes it sound "Pro Toolsized" i guess.
Old 30th August 2002
  #4
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

QOTSA sucks ass. they dont need pro-tools to **** it up. they dont rock. they havent since they left kyuss.
Old 30th August 2002
  #5
Nakid on stage, drugs, whatever but they may never top that Drug shopping list song and the othr one with the loud Vibraphone on it and the "Whatever you doooooo" haunting chorus.

I dont know if they are a band who are SUPPOSED to have a great 2nd album! perhaps better to buy a LA pad with home studio, a pool, near Dave Grohl and Taylor then marry a skinny babe and string out publishing deals enough to get set up for life even if you never recoup a penny for the suckers. **** touring and recording - just live life as that dude from TQOTSA. I would.

Old 30th August 2002
  #6
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

if you wanna rock, get Jucifer, Clutch, Suplecs... hell, even fu manchu rocks harder than QOTSA.
Old 30th August 2002
  #7
Gear Head
 

I dunno I think song wise and performance sits better then the last one and I think the first one is a grea record to but it seems no one pays attention to that one. Alphajerk you can have those kyusss records. Thrill Factor. I am telling you FACTUALLY the record was mixed in Pro Tools.
Old 30th August 2002
  #8
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recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Cannon Fo So
I am telling you FACTUALLY the record was mixed in Pro Tools.
well if they did...all I can say is IDIOTS...that coming from a mix+ owner...I like pro tools...just would rather mix on a neve w/flyingfaders and analog outboard.
Old 30th August 2002
  #9
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Maybe it was the record company's idea.

Or the singer's.

Old 31st August 2002
  #10
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
well if they did...all I can say is IDIOTS...that coming from a mix+ owner...I like pro tools...just would rather mix on a neve w/flyingfaders and analog outboard.
Whoa whoa... hold the phone.... Just because someone mixes entirely in pro tools doesn't make them an idiot. In this case, if they didn't pull it off (I haven't heard the record yet) perhaps, but just because one person CAN mix in pro tools and make it work and someone else relies on going through analog channels, that's no reason for childish name calling.
Old 31st August 2002
  #11
Screw the 'one shot' deal of an analog board mix.
Old 31st August 2002
  #12
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vsl666's Avatar
 

??

Whoa whoa... hold the phone.... Just because some idiot mixes entirely in pro tools doesn't make them nun.

?? r we sure about that ??

ps jules ! not getting a little cynical r u grggt grggt
that was funny ...
Old 31st August 2002
  #13
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e-cue's Avatar
 

VSL, you comming to L.A. for aes? Lemme know, cause I gotta dust off my boxing gloves...
Old 31st August 2002
  #14
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

it is not the tools that make a great mix .... it is the people ....

You'll find idiots mixing on ssl's and you'll find idiots mixing all in a DAW.

and if you can't you're probably one of them.
Old 31st August 2002
  #15
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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All true...but let's not kid ourselves either.

Look in Billboard at the formats used for each week's Number 1 songs...PT is commonly used as a multitrack, like 3348 or 2" are, but the mix is nearly always done on an SSL, Neve or API.

A real deal mixer who has extensive experience with both formats knows he is going to get a bigger, better-sounding record on a high-end analog board he knows well, than mixing inside ProTools with EQ and comp plugins he knows well...even with an extra week tweaking in PT.

That is why, if the label or client has the budget to do it, nearly all freelance engineers mix on an analog SSL, Neve or API.

P.S. - One shot mixing? Analog desks with Total Recall and automation do exist. It's not uncommon to bring up the mix again and tweak it.
Old 31st August 2002
  #16
I wouldnt say there were many pro freelancers doing the cream of major label work that could call themselves extensivly experienced DAW mixers. Therfore I feel that to be a rather hollow statement Jon.

44.1 16 bit - interesting
44.1 24 bit - OK we can try giving up tape now (and many did)
96K 24 bit - widely regarded as "the one" to replace tape

The tricks you can get up to in a DAW mixing environment are TOO cool to be labled as 2nd best for too much longer now.

2003 will be the year that DAW mixing will come of age I predict

Evidence so far:

96k PTHD / 96k Native DAWS
Pro Control / Mackie Control / Logic Control / Digi 002 / Yamaha MD2000
Tightening budgets / shrinking industry
More widespread aceptance of computers

No way will 'the good work' be confined to that done in SSL / Neve / API rooms.
Old 31st August 2002
  #17
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Sure, hordes of digi-dudes will be mixing budget stuff in DAWs. That's already happened.

And a small few, working like the devil and investing over the years, will get very nice results with them. Not on the level of an Ed Cherney, Andy Wallace or Dave Reitzas on a 9k, but respectable and sufficient for the work they do.

Most of the digi-dudes, however, just turn out turds that have to be re-mixed properly at analog studios.

I would contend that very, very few people have daily, continual access to a high-end analog studio. Those that do, mix on the big board, because they can compare and know that it sounds bigger and better. I am in that position...and if it didn't blow away the sound of ProTools mixes, I would happily sell my 9k so I could buy a nice home and take a long vacation instead. Hell, I don't even have a car.

Unfortunately, and I mean this in a humble way, the honest truth is that when you get used to the 9k, you don't really want to go back to the sonic underground of DAW mixing.

The rest is BS. 96k is a smokescreen, like plug-ins, like promises that a DAW is all you need (All's I Had!). It seems like value for money, but it's just an inexpensive, quickly worthless substitute for the real deal.

I prefer the real deal.
Old 31st August 2002
  #18
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
All true...but let's not kid ourselves either.
agree .... completely ..... but ....

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Look in Billboard at the formats used for each week's Number 1 songs...PT is commonly used as a multitrack, like 3348 or 2" are, but the mix is nearly always done on an SSL, Neve or API.

All true .... just have to add that 5 years ago NONE of them were all done in ProTools or another DAW ..... now you see those up there too from time to time.


Quote:
Originally posted by jon
A real deal mixer who has extensive experience with both formats knows he is going to get a bigger, better-sounding record on a high-end analog board he knows well, than mixing inside ProTools with EQ and comp plugins he knows well...even with an extra week tweaking in PT.
again agree .... because the mixers capable of doing a bigger better thing have been doing that on BOTH formats all their lives .... mixers capable of just doing that on a DAW are still hard to find .... most of them have complete analog backgrounds and added daws somewhere down the road ..... realising it's potential.


Quote:
Originally posted by jon
That is why, if the label or client has the budget to do it, nearly all freelance engineers mix on an analog SSL, Neve or API.

yup ..... but allready freelance mixers creeping in there who no longer want the ssl or neve or api .... even with the big budgets .... more and more will come .....


Quote:
Originally posted by jon
P.S. - One shot mixing? Analog desks with Total Recall and automation do exist. It's not uncommon to bring up the mix again and tweak it.
sure .... and good thing they can ....
Old 31st August 2002
  #19
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
I wouldnt say there were many pro freelancers doing the cream of major label work that could call themselves extensivly experienced DAW mixers. Therfore I feel that to be a rather hollow statement Jon.
yup

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

44.1 16 bit - interesting
44.1 24 bit - OK we can try giving up tape now (and many did)
96K 24 bit - widely regarded as "the one" to replace tape
yes ... yes ..... and I think so too ..... although 96k/24bit is not going to be enough ..... we still need better mix busses .... better plugins .... and 192 I'm afraid

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
The tricks you can get up to in a DAW mixing environment are TOO cool to be labled as 2nd best for too much longer now.
yes .... but that alone would be a hollow statement too .... Big sounding mixes need more then just some cool tricks .... but I know you know that too.


Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
2003 will be the year that DAW mixing will come of age I predict
I hope so ... I hope so .... wouldn't bet my life on it yet but I hope so ... still a lot of work to do .... and what we need more then anything are big talented freelancers devoting to it to start proving it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Evidence so far:

96k PTHD / 96k Native DAWS
Pro Control / Mackie Control / Logic Control / Digi 002 / Yamaha MD2000
Tightening budgets / shrinking industry
More widespread aceptance of computers
yes ... the tightening budget and shrinking industry part hurts ... but yes .... I would hate to see though that daws would start to rule because of budget and industry issues.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
No way will 'the good work' be confined to that done in SSL / Neve / API rooms.

agree .... but I sure don't want to see them disapear either. My ideal world is still one where analog and digital are considered different but equal compagnions. Each with their pro's and con's .... but each equally in quality .... I look at it as colours .... some prefer a blue car, some prefer a red car .... both are beautifull.
Old 31st August 2002
  #20
"Unfortunately, and I mean this in a humble way, the honest truth is that when you get used to the 9k, you don't really want to go back to the sonic underground of DAW mixing. '

Jeez Jon, how humble of you!

"And a small few, working like the devil and investing over the years, will get very nice results with them. Not on the level of an Ed Cherney, Andy Wallace or Dave Reitzas on a 9k, but respectable and sufficient for the work they do. '

Your list of top mixers is a 'small few' too. If those are the experienced elite, how many less experienced SSL users are spewing out mixes that can be topped by a experienced DAW mixer I wonder? (You dont know is the correct answer)

Yada Yada.. run round with the studio top 5 clipping from Billboard stuck to your forehead if it suits you but DAWs are improving and so are the folks using them, bottom line.

Old 31st August 2002
  #21
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
All true...but let's not kid ourselves either.

Look in Billboard at the formats used for each week's Number 1 songs...PT is commonly used as a multitrack, like 3348 or 2" are, but the mix is nearly always done on an SSL, Neve or API.
I do see your point, however I've worked on 5 songs that appeared in Billboard this year alone that were mis credited. The studios that foward this info to billboard want credit for their console, even if all I did was use their mains and my protools rig. Let's also keep in mind, some of those #1's that supposedly were done on analog sound like a speaker strapped to someone's stomach with your ear held up to their anus.
Old 31st August 2002
  #22
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Sure, hordes of digi-dudes will be mixing budget stuff in DAWs. That's already happened.

And a small few, working like the devil and investing over the years, will get very nice results with them. Not on the level of an Ed Cherney, Andy Wallace or Dave Reitzas on a 9k, but respectable and sufficient for the work they do.
I think amongst those digi or daw dudes, you'll find a future cherney, wallace, reitzas .... they are allready there .... the acadamy hasn't discovered them yet because the jury untill recently didn't even know how to plug a VCR to a TV .... let alone know what a playstation is.


Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Most of the digi-dudes, however, just turn out turds that have to be re-mixed properly at analog studios.
those are the ones that in a future will also be remixed more and more on DAWs' by competent DAW mixers .... again .... I blame the dudes ... not the medium. not anymore ....

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
I would contend that very, very few people have daily, continual access to a high-end analog studio. Those that do, mix on the big board, because they can compare and know that it sounds bigger and better. I am in that position...and if it didn't blow away the sound of ProTools mixes, I would happily sell my 9k so I could buy a nice home and take a long vacation instead. Hell, I don't even have a car.
still very much true as we speak .... but numbers of people who need and want to have access to those are rapidly decreasing too. A digital studio can be just as high end as an analog one. and a high end studio build around a maxed out ProTools setup isn't exactly cheap(er) then a high end analog studio. One of the reasons your 9K is keeping you from buying a nice house is because they are overpriced. their price is no longer worth it. It was a couple of years ago maybe ... but no longer today. but they have to keep it that high because otherwise they would go bankrupt and seize to exist. the effort and research put into them doesn't allow them to be cheaper. No longer because they are so much better ... but because there is no market for them like there is for daws. daws offer step in possibilities at affordable , sometimes even cheap prices. you can build from a limited budget up to high end needs as you go along.

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Unfortunately, and I mean this in a humble way, the honest truth is that when you get used to the 9k, you don't really want to go back to the sonic underground of DAW mixing.
the thing I upmost respect in there is that I know from reading your posts over the last couple of years .... I know that you are 100% convinced by that. And please don't change that .... I admire and respect people that are fully behind for what they stand for. Be it in daily life or music business. The world needs people that are completely convinced of what they do and what they like. Wether the other person is of the same opinion doesn't matter. It is what it all makes so exciting.

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
The rest is BS. 96k is a smokescreen, like plug-ins, like promises that a DAW is all you need (All's I Had!). It seems like value for money, but it's just an inexpensive, quickly worthless substitute for the real deal.

I prefer the real deal.
I truly hope you don't mind me saying that I think that this part has some frustration to it Jon. I permit myself to use the word frustration because a part of me fully understands what you mean. the problem with daws is that there are too many guys with a digi001 out there selling themselves as high end studios. As much as I think it is a good product for it's price, people should learn to realise that it is far from high end and merely a toy to start leaning the software. I am what you would call a daw dude..... sure .... said by some that hurts .... by others I couldn't care less .... by you I would accept that ....

I started out like the daw dudes you resent .... and believe me ... I resent them too .... when I started out I dreamed of a 9k like console. I was determined to work hard and get to the point that I could buy one myself. But somewhere along the line .... between my first atari with pro24 on it and now my mind and opinion changed. And when ProTools Mix and ProControl came out I decided once and for all that I would dedicate my future in this business to a setup around a DAW. I wish I could say that I had allready reached the point where I can afford a 9k to make it more believable. Let's say I reached the point where I can afford to buy a nice second hand good shape 4k if I wanted to. But I don't want to anymore. I swear on my childrens lives .... if you offer me your 9k for my ProControl and ProTools setup .... I would say no way ....

I know this sounds wacky but it is the truth. Not because I'm convinced that my system sounds better then your 9k .... on the contrary .... I still realise that my system has to humbly bow in the 9k's shadow. Main reason is that I would be a ****ty 9k mixer because I can't work on it. I am not capable of creating a good sounding mix on that kind of system. I do think I am capable of pushing a daw to its limits. And that's why I have put my future in their hands. Because they are getting better by the day and because I strongly believe that a daw in combination with high end outboard is now a major league team. We won't make it to the world series yet .... neither will the red sox I'm afraid .... but someday we will win them I'm sure.

fwiw .... a daw setup for me still includes high end outboard .... definately impossible without them .... HD is providing top convertors now .... I would like to see high end outboard being plugin controlled ..... mix busses improved .... latency issues resolved .... etc etc ..... still some issues to deal with before we'll make it to those world series ....

But we'll get there .... as much as you are convinced by your 9k .... I am convinced we'll win the worldseries one day soon.
Even the Red Sox will .... you can be the yankees for now .... heh
Old 31st August 2002
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

big desk

heh

big desks make you feel like a man
big desks r cool
they have lots of lights and buttons
eveyone is terribley impressed by them
and thinks you are o so cool coz u can use it
BIG DESKS ARE FUN

being as alot of things i hold dear are fast becomming
irrelivant to large international companies
shifting cd/mp3/mini disk machines then i guess
jules is right as comps are cheap and you dont
have to know jack to use one then they may be the way forward

but you cant seriousley suggest you could mix in one !
doesnt sound like much fun to me

TOYS they be

and you cant put your feet on them and look in charge...

sorry for slightley irreverant post(for a change)

but desks will imo still be around for years as at the end of the day they are the tool for the job

Old 31st August 2002
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

recall

just to say that recall suks as a general principal
Old 31st August 2002
  #25
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recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue


Whoa whoa... hold the phone.... Just because someone mixes entirely in pro tools doesn't make them an idiot. In this case, if they didn't pull it off (I haven't heard the record yet) perhaps, but just because one person CAN mix in pro tools and make it work and someone else relies on going through analog channels, that's no reason for childish name calling.
Hey..anything I say is only my opinion. I've mixed some pretty good stuff in Pro Tools (what I was told by clients) but for reasons too numerous to go into here (I pretty much hate typing and do not like to write books like some others seem to do with ease) really believe that it's not possible to match, right now as things are, a mix don eentirely in PT,vs one done more analog, using PT as a tape amchine/edit rig. Give me some examples....I think that sonically, board mixes win out... I don't think it's a matter of technique...it's like asking someone to try and beat a formula-one with a nascar. I am an advocate of the position that PT sounds best with the least amount of processing. The more plugs (if any) that you use, the worse it gets. The only analogy I can find in the analog realm with it is tape generations.

I've been around it since pretty much it's beginning, and an active owner user the last several years....trying to be a PT only thing...trying to adjust to the future.I do like it's concept though:i.e. editing,etc; and I like the noise floor of dig.

Give me Dean Parks, Jim Keltner, Bob Glaub, an old analog desk/room and PT as mostly a tape machine,and I'm a grinnin' happy cat.....heh
Old 31st August 2002
  #26
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Recorderman,

You prefer a different way to work that I do. Sometimes I DO mix everything in Pro Tools (depends on the situation, song, etc). I usually mix on a 9000J, but not all the time. But I'm not going to label everyone an idiot that works differently than I do. If you're opinion is that I'm an idiot for mixing #1's entirely in pro tools, then I guess I gave you too much credit. I prefer to give other's credit for trying something new and different than me.

The 1st mixes I did entire in Pro Tools were good (keep in mind, this was the 16-bit era), but not as good as my analog console mixes and understandably so. I caulked this up to my inexperience on the format. Overtime, my daw mixes got better, and better. (I mean, the years I spent crafting my skills on an analog console really outweighed my DAW mixing experience). And if you have done mixes you're clients though were good in pro tools, then I doubt you can blame Pro Tools for a suckey sounding QOTSA record (if it does suck).


[side note] Andy Wallace's 1st 9000J mix was the material he did on the Korn record, and Dave Reitzas does mix entirely in Pro Tools at times (see Eq with Dave & Rhett Lawrence).
Old 31st August 2002
  #27
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hey if the word idiot is offensive than i humbly retract it. As far as Dave R. mixing sometimes in pro tools...so what. I'll bet you if you give him a choice he'll pick a console (he's mixing all in pt at R.L because that's Rhett's set-up...although I doubt he'll admit to preffering analog so as not to offend rhett). When JJP, Bob Clearmountain & Mick Guzauski start mixing all in pro tools then you can call ME an idiot (hey my wife does).
anyway..I hope you aren;t being too serious...I wasn't being mean (when I am I'll say I am).
As an aside...listen to mixes by JJP against Andy's on Sheryl Crows latest. or JJP's against the Lord-Alge bro's on records where that happens...and check out HIS room/gear...seriously another level imo...I'm biased in that I've worked with everyone mentioned in my response.

.....I like PT...just not as much st the mix stage....
Old 31st August 2002
  #28
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
As an aside...listen to mixes by JJP against Andy's on Sheryl Crows latest. or JJP's against the Lord-Alge bro's on records where that happens...and check out HIS room/gear...seriously another level imo...I'm biased in that I've worked with everyone mentioned in my response.

.....I like PT...just not as much st the mix stage....
You actually LIKE the Lord-Alge squashed mixes?

My point was that Dave Reitzas does mix in protools and supply results, as I believe other engineer's that work at Rhett's do as well. Maybe he prefer's working on a 9K, but so do I most of the time. But Rhett is a great example of sucessful all-pro tools mixes.

Peace,
Idit-cue
Old 31st August 2002
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman

As an aside...listen to mixes by JJP against Andy's on Sheryl Crows latest. or JJP's against the Lord-Alge bro's on records where that happens...and check out HIS room/gear...seriously another level imo..
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not like Lord-Alge. wasn't the above sentence clear enough? Jack Joseph Puig.....that's who's mixes I like, by and large. WAY more demesonal than the others I was cpomparing him to. better than wallace, or lord-alge (chris or tom....you pick)
Old 31st August 2002
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue


You actually LIKE the Lord-Alge squashed mixes?

My point was that Dave Reitzas does mix in protools and supply results, as I believe other engineer's that work at Rhett's do as well. Maybe he prefer's working on a 9K, but so do I most of the time. But Rhett is a great example of sucessful all-pro tools mixes.

Peace,
Idit-cue
i'm sure humberto would do all right in that land as well I guess(mixin' in pt).

I do not get to do it enough...but generally i like to rock (call it my immaturity factor).

On the other hand? I'll just finnish with this.....the more mixes done entirely in pro tools...the easier my job gets....
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