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A mic that's especially smooth/forgiving in the 1-3kHz range?
Old 23rd February 2006
  #1
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Old 23rd February 2006
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Sayers

Thanks for your help with another mic question,
JS

Neuman U67.

If too much $$$...

Try recording in omni mode instead of cardidod mode on your other mics.

Hopefully the room you are tracking in is in good shape acoustic wise.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #3
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djui5's Avatar
 

Try a U87

Or a U67 like trill said.....same time on the post
Old 23rd February 2006
  #4
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Sayers
Unfortunately this seems to be a natural flaw in my voice and I can hear it not just in my room but in the car, etc. It's not as noticeable when I'm singing in a low range but anything up higher (think the "something wrong, now I long" part of "Yesterday" on up) gets harsh. Anyway, I'd really appreciate suggestions on mics that might help me in my battle.


my recommendation, for what it's worth, is that you stop thinking of this as a 'flaw in your voice' and start looking at it as a 'shortcoming in your technique.' that way, you gain a tremendous amount of power to shift your reality.

every human voice is capable of an amazing array of timbres, from pointed to broad, peaky to husky, shrill to smooth. each person has a given range to work within, some more limited than others, but i can't see any reason why the aspects of your voice you're describing wouldn't respond to some woodshedding with a coach who knows your voice type.

it's not as immediate a fix as a shiny new mic which downplays the things you don't like about your instrument (which is you, by the way), but correcting it at the source would be infinitely more rewarding for you on so many levels.

it's quite a thing to love your voice, top to bottom, live and behind a mic. i say go for it.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 23rd February 2006
  #5
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Igotsoul4u's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Neuman U67.

If too much $$$...

Try recording in omni mode instead of cardidod mode on your other mics.

Hopefully the room you are tracking in is in good shape acoustic wise.
Exactly what i was going to say. U67 is my favorite mic. A knockoff might will most likey be way cheaper. Soundelux U99 or Korby convertable w67 capsule. I have not had a chance to try either mics so I am not sure how they compare.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u
Soundelux U99 or Korby convertable w67 capsule. I have not had a chance to try either mics so I am not sure how they compare.
Both of these mics will do exactly what he doesn't want.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Sayers
I always find myself having to do some serious equalizing in the 1-3kHz range of my vocals to smooth-out and banish annoying and harsh frequencies.
Neumann U67 is my go-to mic for this situation.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #8
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Improv's Avatar
 

A ribbon seems like a natural choice for this sort of application. Have you ever tried one?
Old 23rd February 2006
  #9
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AdamJay's Avatar
 

wow, the AT4060 didnt do the job?

then it does indeed sound like its time for a dark ribbon mic.

i'm partial to the ShinyBox 23C
Old 23rd February 2006
  #10
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Big Sound and not overly bright: CAD VX2

An interesting link is this Dutch Tube Mic Test where they "plot" (is that a word?) different tube mics against a Neumann 87i.

Martijn.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #11
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Hello,

I've been there, done that too.

I bought microphones and was disappointed for years. If you are a singer, you need to try a RCA 44bx. The sooner the better. You will probably find little or no effects (reverb) are required. You will sound huge, you will sound warm, you will not have sibalance problems. You will not have harshness and you will probably add just a touch of sizzle at around 3.7k but that will be about it for eq. You will do far fewer takes, very few punches, and, you will most likely be very happy with your first couple of takes. And most importantly, you will put your vocals in the correct place in the mix so your vocals can be heard and understood. A 44 will allow you to SING without being overly concerned with techical problems ruining a take.

I absolutely love mine and treasure it. I also know many folks here do not like the UA6176, but that is the combo I use now. Personally it is the sound I have strived for my entire life. I just wish some engineer at any studio I had recorded so much of my stuff in when I was young had put one a 44 in front of me. I would have never doubted my talent. But that was back in the day when "new and modern" was though to be better.

Regards,

Danny
Old 23rd February 2006
  #12
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softwareguy's Avatar
 

For $2500 you could get a Sony C37A or a pair of Sony C38's (fet version). Really smooth capsule in the midrange, a go to condensor mic for trumpets, brash singers and other harsh sources, as well as just sounding all-around beautiful.

However, the Sony's will not HIDE the midrange emphasis in your voice, they just won't EMPHASIZE it. Compared to a mic with a presence peak (almost all Neumann's and Neumann-alikes) they will sound smoother and flatter, but they don't actually dip at the frequencies that you are talking about.

The Sony's are worth a listen if you can find them, a lot of people (e.g., Lanois w/Dylan) use them for exactly the purpose you are talking about and love them. If they don't go far enough in smoothing the midrange, however, I agree about the ribbon suggestion, in which case, in addition to the 44 you should try an RCA BK11, a Coles and probably an R84 to see which one fits you best.

Best of luck with your exploration and try lots of ideas.
Old 23rd February 2006
  #13
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wallace's Avatar
 

Maybe you should take some vocal lessons and see if you could be doing something more with your breathing or with your singing technique to help work around that problem. Aside from that, did you check out the Ifet 7? That's pretty dark, and might be good. Or maybe a ribbon mic?
Old 23rd February 2006
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Sayers
I have tried an iFet 7. I've tried TWO iFet 7s (we all know where this is going so I don't need to go there). The "vocal" mode sounded fairly good but the technical problems were like having a bad experience with food: I just can't order that dish again. I'm not opposed to trying other Soundelux models, though - I've read that the E49 is supposed to have an un-hyped midrange.

That's a shame, I use that mic on loud super aggressive singers (and some softer singers who sing through their nose) who would shred your ears if you were in front of them, and it comes out super smooth on the other side. I know it's off topic, but just out of curiousity were the ifet7's you bought tested by the dealer ahead of time, or were they just sent from stock without the extra QC? I ask because most of the problems I had seen (this was 2003-ish and not since) with that mic showed immediately after plugging it in.
Old 24th February 2006
  #15
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If you listen to the Blackline stuff, you'll hear that my voice is just spilling with that 1k to 4k stuff. I used to own a 67 and its nice, as is a 47. But overall, what I've found is that its not bad to slightly eq that area with a nice eq to tame it. On horrible occasions I'll put the Waves Lin Multiband with just the upper midrange band on catching the excess, usually works great. Obviously try mics and catch it at the source if you can, but I can tell you first hand, when you have a lot of power in that area, sometimes you have to do something post.
Old 24th February 2006
  #16
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tmcconnell's Avatar
 

Scooped mics?

I have not seen much suggestion of scooped mics - all the 414 family like the Elam 251 and its clone brothers and sisters, the c12, etc. Even a 414 TLII which has the c12 capsule but a transistor amplifier. All these will deaccentuate the range in question when used with some proximity effect.

Old 24th February 2006
  #17
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

sE gemini

Pretty scooped, but it might be just what the doctor ordered. I'm not a fan of the mic myself, but you should check it out anyway.
Old 24th February 2006
  #18
I was going to post what tmcconnell above said as well. Seems to me you are looking for a Soundelux E251C or the older now discontinued 250. Maybe a Tele U.S.A. but I would personally stay clear of their stuff (no flames no wars, YMMV fuuck )

heh

Also the 414 "C12" mics as well might be the ticket? You will have to try them to find out but that is what I would look for.

As a matter of fact I will be looking into the E251C in a few weeks here myself because I find that I always dish out a db or 2 in that area anyway with most singers at my place (must be my room).
Old 24th February 2006
  #19
I recommend trying a Coles 4040--it smoothes out a voice without overly dulling it. My favorite preamp for the 4040 is the Geoff Daking (I use the mic pre-IV).
Old 24th February 2006
  #20
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Maybe a Tele U.S.A. but I would personally stay clear of their stuff (no flames no wars, YMMV fuuck )
Why? What's wrong with the Telefunken stuff?
Old 24th February 2006
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Head Sound
Why? What's wrong with the Telefunken stuff?

No flames, no wars, nothing to see here... move along.....


Kidding....

Nothing wrong with it. So we are on the same page, nothing at all wrong with the original Telefunken branded stuff from back in the day, I am talking about the Telefunken U.S.A. stuff here.

If you own one good for you and I am sure you will like it.

I have questions about their products and I have questions about their business policy and practices. There are threads around here that explain it but I don't want to get into it here. Jules has asked that we all keep that can of worms closed and I respect him and his wishes. That said I will not be buying a product from them personally and that is a personal decision, everyone else needs to make up their own mind. For all I know it might be a great tool for ya!!
Old 25th February 2006
  #22
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Neuman U67.

.
It's funny, i once did a record with a female singer who in fact was excellent, but also exhibited a harsh resonance in that area. We tried both of my 67's but they seemed to accentuate the problem--I dunno, to my ears 67's really put out in the midrange. So we tried other things, the best of which was a Neumann 170. It had very little of that bite at 2k.

In the end, we used one of the 67's and notched out the offending frequencies. It's just such a great mic.

But I wouldn't pick it as the one to solve your particular problem. They say a U99 is a 67 clone, but I found it to emphasize higher frequencies and to not have the midrange bite (nor the charismatic midrange character) of a 67. I'd try that.

-R
Old 25th February 2006
  #23
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Gravity8058's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Seems to me you are looking for a Soundelux E251C or the older now discontinued 250.
I'm another that lean on my U67, however I was going to mention the Soundelux 250 -- Always wondered about that mic. Now I hear it's discontinued???? Has anyone worked with one? Is the 251C supposed to retain some of it's characteristics?

Old 25th February 2006
  #24
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Sayers
... [I] probably don't have the raw singing talent that I would feel necessary to justify working with a vocal coach, etc.

i gotta say it, and i do so with all due respect: that's total bull****.

if you're an artist, a good teacher will help your art. it's not about "raw talent", it's about making the most with what you have.

fear has as much power as we have gifts; the tipping of the scales comes from one thing, and one thing alone: the choice.

meantime, by all means, get a sweet mic. just be careful about what your underlying beliefs are doing.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 25th February 2006
  #25
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popmann's Avatar
How confident are you that 1-3k is really the (frequency) range in question?

Because:

Quote:
The AT 4060 wasn't as bad as some other mics I've tried but I think the oft-referenced "smoothness" of that mic is more in the high end than the midrange area I'm dealing with.
No...the 4060's got a HELLA foward midrange between about 2-5k. Compared to a lot of other mics, it's not "smooth" at all. It's actually pretty hard and articulate, IMO. I love the mic, but if you feel like the frequency range you gave is an issue, it's not gonna be for you. I'd argue that nothing from the Neumann line, new or old will be either. A 67 may work just due to it's relative flatness through there...the Korby67 will work best of the family, as he intentionally pulled the mids back.

You want something scooped. 414. 251 clone. Have you tried the Peluso 251? If that's really where the harshness lies, a ADK TC may do fine.

That said, I've never heard anything out of a voice I'd call "harsh" between 1-3k...3-8k is where anything "harsh" comes from to my ear. And all of the above is directly related to the low mid warmth/masking or lack thereof--something to keep in mind.

If you do decide you want a TLM193...I've got one for sale in the classifieds...cheap! It is dark and warm, but it's slight dip is up around 5k....it IS, IMO, the vocal harshness killer. That's why I had it. My technique has improved, and no longer need it's sweetening curve.
Old 25th February 2006
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity8058
I'm another that lean on my U67, however I was going to mention the Soundelux 250 -- Always wondered about that mic. Now I hear it's discontinued???? Has anyone worked with one? Is the 251C supposed to retain some of it's characteristics?

Long story, changes in the SD line seem to come pretty often and can make things pretty confusing.

The SD 251 was / is the big daddy with variable pattern. The 250 was the little brother with a fixed pattern and a little higher proximity frequency. The 250 was dropped for the E251C which is almost exactly the 251 with fixed pattern and it includes a "brite/normal" switch.
Old 26th February 2006
  #27
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Believe it or not, an AEA R84 is killer for certain lead vocals.

It works especially well on female vocals.

And yes it is very, very forgiving in that 1-3k area...much too forgiving.

The great thing about this mic is that it takes EQ like a trooper.
Old 26th February 2006
  #28
Gear Addict
 

Neumann U47/48/67, M49, Coles 4038, Sdelux E47, E49 are pretty good bets in my book.
Old 27th February 2006
  #29
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Bat Head Sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
No flames, no wars, nothing to see here... move along.....


Kidding....

Nothing wrong with it. So we are on the same page, nothing at all wrong with the original Telefunken branded stuff from back in the day, I am talking about the Telefunken U.S.A. stuff here.

If you own one good for you and I am sure you will like it.

I have questions about their products and I have questions about their business policy and practices. There are threads around here that explain it but I don't want to get into it here. Jules has asked that we all keep that can of worms closed and I respect him and his wishes. That said I will not be buying a product from them personally and that is a personal decision, everyone else needs to make up their own mind. For all I know it might be a great tool for ya!!
Gotcha , I was just curious. I don't have one myself, but I have used the Telefunken NA stuff and really like the way that they sound. But, to each their own.
Old 27th February 2006
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Shure SM7B. Much cheaper than the other suggestions and will probably sound at least as good.
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