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* H3000 Odd "Hot Pin" on XLR... WTF ? Seriously? Modular Synthesizers
Old 29th December 2010
  #1
* H3000 Odd "Hot Pin" on XLR... WTF ? Seriously?

So does this mean standard XLR cables can not be used with an H3000 or that when converting the H3000 XLR Balanced to UnBalanced custom cables need to be made?

What about going into an H3000 from a standard DI w/ XLR out, and out of an H3000 with a standard XLR to TS ReAmp box?

Quote:
WIRING - H3000/3500 Series:
  • Pin 1 : GROUND
  • Pin 2 : -PHASE (Negative)
  • Pin 3 : +PHASE (Hot)
Use line levels cables (2 connectors + Ground) as those made by pro audio companies like Mogami, Belden , Canare, Monster Cables, Klotz, etc.
  • Input from unbalanced ¼” jack:
    • Connect XLR Pins #1 & #2 to ¼” Ground
    • Connect XLR Pin #3 to ¼” Tip
  • Output to unbalanced ¼” jack:
    • Connect XLR Pin #1 to ¼” Ground
    • Leave XLR Pin #2 unconnected
    • Connect XLR Pin #3 to ¼” Tip
Old 29th December 2010
  #2
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
LFF - well USUALLY on most modern gear, pin 2 is hot, so most likely without a custom cable, you'll be out of phase when patching into other gear.

As far as terminating to 1/4" unbalanced ends, pretty standard stuff except the swapping of pin 2 to pin 3 for the tip.

Again, for your question about coming in and out, you will flipping phase when entering the H3000. if you're going into a patch bay (TT) this is all a moot point after swapping pin 3 to be hot on the i/o of the 3000. If you're not using a bay, I'd suggest custom cables. Get them in a color you KNOW is "out of phase" ie: pin 3 hot.

All that said, it may be a moot point for your application. Try and see. But if you want to keep phase straight throughout your signal path, then custom cables would be the way to do it.

bp
Old 29th December 2010
  #3
many thanks - but why on earth would they design a unit with a non-standard XLR configuration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
LFF - well USUALLY on most modern gear, pin 2 is hot, so most likely without a custom cable, you'll be out of phase when patching into other gear.

As far as terminating to 1/4" unbalanced ends, pretty standard stuff except the swapping of pin 2 to pin 3 for the tip.

Again, for your question about coming in and out, you will flipping phase when entering the H3000. if you're going into a patch bay (TT) this is all a moot point after swapping pin 3 to be hot on the i/o of the 3000. If you're not using a bay, I'd suggest custom cables. Get them in a color you KNOW is "out of phase" ie: pin 3 hot.

All that said, it may be a moot point for your application. Try and see. But if you want to keep phase straight throughout your signal path, then custom cables would be the way to do it.

bp
Old 29th December 2010
  #4
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
many thanks - but why on earth would they design a unit with a non-standard XLR configuration?
Old Skool gear used to use pin 3 as hot. Especially broadcast gear. This tradition has "stuck" with some manufacturers. Don't ask me why. When the whole rest of the world decides to go a different way, you can either fight it or get on board. Evidently Eventide decided to hold their ground..,,, heh heh
Old 29th December 2010
  #5
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SP2016's Avatar
The H3000/H3500 series from Eventide were designed and made in a time that pin 3 of the XLR was "hot".
That was the American standard at that time.
English professional audio equipment and also consoles already had pin 2 of the XLR "hot".
Later on the professional audio world accepted pin 2 of the XLR to be "hot".
Old 29th December 2010
  #6
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Fletcher's Avatar
Gee drBill -- I would have thought another old war horse like you would have known that the "pin 2" thing only became a "gentleman's agreement standard" about 15 or so years ago [around 1994-95 ish -- the "base" H-3k came out many years before that]... before that it was "flip a coin" [and as you mentioned, in the broadcast world, the "gentleman's agreement standard" was Pin 3 hot]. I call it a "gentleman's agreement standard" because that standard is not written - not by AES, not by NAB, not by NARAS® P&E.

Also - if you think about it -- reverb is a "random phase" item in any state. Yes, some of the other effects in an H-3000 might be more "polarity critical" but in all honesty, with effects units, the need for attention to polarity is at best minimal.

FWIW I'm going to be at a New Year's party in a couple of days that will very likely be attended by the owner of Eventide -- would you like me to ask him why they stuck to "Pin 3 hot"? I'm quite sure the answer will be "why the hell not" - but ya never know...
Old 29th December 2010
  #7
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

* H3000 Odd "Hot Pin" on XLR... WTF ? Seriously?

In the olden days there was not a standard - the USA seemed to go for pin-3 hot and everyone else seemed to go for pin-2 hot.

Very many years ago, the early to mid 1980s I think, it was written up as an ISO standard as pin-2 hot but it took quite a while for the USA to change. Mic. manufacturers were pretty quick and console manufacturers took the longest.

It was annoying in the UK where some consoles were made pin-3 hot because of the American market.


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Old 29th December 2010
  #8
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Gee drBill -- I would have thought another old war horse like you would have known that the "pin 2" thing only became a "gentleman's agreement standard" about 15 or so years ago [around 1994-95 ish -- the "base" H-3k came out many years before that]... before that it was "flip a coin" [and as you mentioned, in the broadcast world, the "gentleman's agreement standard" was Pin 3 hot]. I call it a "gentleman's agreement standard" because that standard is not written - not by AES, not by NAB, not by NARAS® P&E.

Also - if you think about it -- reverb is a "random phase" item in any state. Yes, some of the other effects in an H-3000 might be more "polarity critical" but in all honesty, with effects units, the need for attention to polarity is at best minimal.

FWIW I'm going to be at a New Year's party in a couple of days that will very likely be attended by the owner of Eventide -- would you like me to ask him why they stuck to "Pin 3 hot"? I'm quite sure the answer will be "why the hell not" - but ya never know...
Why the hostility Fletch?

Seemed like the late 80's IIRC, but whatever - why bicker over 5 years. That's all a fog now. heh heh As for WHY Eventide stayed pin 3, I'd love to hear why. Those are the kind of interesting anecdotal things I love to hear on GS. Have a nice N.Y .party and let us know why they stuck with pin 3 hot. thumbsupthumbsup

bp
Old 30th December 2010
  #9
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Space Station's Avatar
With properly designed balanced gear, output polarity equals input polarity, so it doesn’t matter whether Pin-2 or Pin-3 is designated as "hot," so long as the input and output wiring is consistent — with regard to polarity — throughout your system.

its only a problem when you have to interface balanced to unbalanced, and then it's just a case of swapping one wire.

AMS rmx/dmx is pin 3 hot too btw..just to muddle things up a bit..
Old 30th December 2010
  #10
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Barish's Avatar
It goes in reverse, and it goes out reverse, thereby correcting itself. Don't worry about it.

B.
Old 30th December 2010
  #11
thanks to all for the feedback and info - here's the question...

What about going into an H3000 from a standard DI w/ XLR out, and out of an H3000 with a standard XLR to TS ReAmp box?

In other words here the signal chain:

INPUT:

Guitar
-> DI
-> Balanced "Y" Cable (mono to dual mono)
-> H3000 L/R inputs

OUTPUT:

H3000 L/R outs ->
-> L ReAmp -> AMP
-> R ReAmp -> AMP

is this possible without having to make my own cables as the balancing/unbalancing will be happening in the DI's (in) and ReAmps (out)

???

Thanks!
Old 30th December 2010
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
is this possible without having to make my own cables as the balancing/unbalancing will be happening in the DI's (in) and ReAmps (out)
Probably be easiest to open it up and switch the pin 2 and 3 leads on in/out.

There is a lot of real estate in the unit so the connectors are not hard to get at.
Old 30th December 2010
  #13
Gear Addict
 
audioboffin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Why the hostility Fletch?

Seemed like the late 80's IIRC, but whatever - why bicker over 5 years. That's all a fog now. heh heh As for WHY Eventide stayed pin 3, I'd love to hear why. Those are the kind of interesting anecdotal things I love to hear on GS. Have a nice N.Y .party and let us know why they stuck with pin 3 hot. thumbsupthumbsup

bp
From my foggy memory of the late 80's, pin 2 hot was adopted as a defacto standard by some European manufacturers first. Was it not the case that one US coast was typically pin 2 hot and the other pin 3 hot for a while?

If I was a manufacturer I'd stick to my standard for as long as absolutely possible, why rock the boat? After all it's an arbitrary standard.

To the OP, it's handy to have a few XLR barrel phase reverse adapters kicking around...
Old 30th December 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioboffin View Post
To the OP, it's handy to have a few XLR barrel phase reverse adapters kicking around...
DOH! Thanks - What a simple and elegant solution!
Whirlwind Phase Reverse | Sweetwater.com

Old 30th December 2010
  #15
soldering iron and just resolder the internal cables of the H3000?
Old 30th December 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
It goes in reverse, and it goes out reverse, thereby correcting itself. Don't worry about it.

B.

Just to play devil's advocate, I will mention that some folks think absolute polarity DOES matter, for example, a dynamics processor with a super fast attack may respond slightly differently if that initial transient is negative.

Also, nowadays, a signal can go into a device in the analog domain with reverse polarity, BUT leave the unit out of a digital connector, therefore, it does not get corrected.

I
Old 30th December 2010
  #17
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Barish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRJanuary View Post
Just to play devil's advocate, I will mention that some folks think absolute polarity DOES matter, for example, a dynamics processor with a super fast attack may respond slightly differently if that initial transient is negative.

Also, nowadays, a signal can go into a device in the analog domain with reverse polarity, BUT leave the unit out of a digital connector, therefore, it does not get corrected.

I
H3000 doesn't have a digital I/O so it is out of question.

And all the modern Eventide units that have digital I/O also happen to have the pin 2 hot as the rest of the world, so that's sorted too.

And I'm not aware of a dynamic processor yet that intentionally and deliberately utilizes different ratios and attack/decay/release values etc for positive and negative halves of the signal. Name me one so that I'll know.

Until then, what you are saying is absurd.

B.
Old 30th December 2010
  #18
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5down1up's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Necola View Post
soldering iron and just resolder the internal cables of the H3000?
great suggestion ! it sounded different to my ears, when switching the pins from default to pin2 = +. but theres always some vodoo involved. i wasnt doing the " test " 200 times forth and back heh
Old 30th December 2010
  #19
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Barish's Avatar
You could test it by sending a signal from your DAW into it and then flipping it over, rather than using crossed cables and switches and all that stuff.

The difference you'll hear will be more due to the difference in the response of your speaker membrane movement on either side of the speaker cabinet than the response of the algorithms, I'm telling you.

The signal is inverted may be 20 times throughout the whole electronic circuit while being amplified and processed before it hits the output flipped back to the normal phase again, but nobody seems to be worrying about it (class A amplification principles of NPN transistors anyone? Inverting opamps?).

This argument is red herring as far as I am concerned, but if you are still worrying about your bat hearing, then yes, all it takes is a soldering iron and a couple of bits of wire.

B.
Old 30th December 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
H3000 doesn't have a digital I/O so it is out of question.

And all the modern Eventide units that have digital I/O also happen to have the pin 2 hot as the rest of the world, so that's sorted too.

And I'm not aware of a dynamic processor yet that intentionally and deliberately utilizes different ratios and attack/decay/release values etc for positive and negative halves of the signal. Name me one so that I'll know.

Until then, what you are saying is absurd.

B.
I have used compressors and gates that respond slightly differently when input polarity is reversed. Who said anything about "intentionally and deliberately?" And I am really only referring to attack time. In an ideal world, I'm sure the designer would like you to hook it up correctly.

On my second point, I am not talking about H3000, I am simply recommending best practices, lest GS folks take your word that hooking up gear wrong is always OK. The early ADATs are an example of a device that intentionally reverses polarity internally, but if the signal exits the unit somewhere other than its analog connection, it will stay unfixed.
Old 30th December 2010
  #21
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5down1up's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
but if you are still worrying about your bat hearing, then yes, all it takes is a soldering iron and a couple of bits of wire
it was pretty obvious with the short delays to my ears, no bats involved

but, i never heard about the ams being 2+ too, i have to admit it never buged me, gonna check that out as well
Old 30th December 2010
  #22
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waveterm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRJanuary View Post
I have used compressors and gates that respond slightly differently when input polarity is reversed. Who said anything about "intentionally and deliberately?" And I am really only referring to attack time. In an ideal world, I'm sure the designer would like you to hook it up correctly.
I find this very hard to believe but hey, strranger things has happened.

WT
Old 30th December 2010
  #23
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waveterm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
thanks to all for the feedback and info - here's the question...

What about going into an H3000 from a standard DI w/ XLR out, and out of an H3000 with a standard XLR to TS ReAmp box?

In other words here the signal chain:

INPUT:

Guitar
-> DI
-> Balanced "Y" Cable (mono to dual mono)
-> H3000 L/R inputs

OUTPUT:

H3000 L/R outs ->
-> L ReAmp -> AMP
-> R ReAmp -> AMP

is this possible without having to make my own cables as the balancing/unbalancing will be happening in the DI's (in) and ReAmps (out)

???

Thanks!
I´m not sure going from a DI into the H3000 is a good idea as the H3000 is a line level unit. The available gain might be too low.

You can always try it. You won´t break it.

WT
Old 30th December 2010
  #24
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
This argument is red herring as far as I am concerned, but if you are still worrying about your bat hearing, then yes, all it takes is a soldering iron and a couple of bits of wire.

B.
The issue of absolute phase is anything but a red herring IMO. It's very important in all aspects of audio recording, and honestly, I'm not sure why we're even discussing it other than how to achieve it. The critical monitoring/checking of all signal chains to retain absolute phase accuracy is an important aspect of integrating gear and building studios.

Most notably, on the front lines are mics and mic pre's, but really, everything right up to making sure you speaker cone moves OUT instead of IN on initial signal makes a big difference if you have a critical monitoring environment.

I have one visiting engineer where the first thing he does is lay the CRM monitor on it's back and put a dime on the speaker cone and plays back a kick drum. Then reverses phase and repeats. To make sure the speakers are going pushing instead of pulling when signal hits them. Whichever way makes the dime JUMP is positive phase at the speaker itself. Makes a difference.
Old 30th December 2010
  #25
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I remember having to resolder a Drawmer 201 gate that also had pin 3 hot in my assistant days..
Old 31st December 2010
  #26
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Barish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
The issue of absolute phase is anything but a red herring IMO. It's very important in all aspects of audio recording, and honestly, I'm not sure why we're even discussing it other than how to achieve it. The critical monitoring/checking of all signal chains to retain absolute phase accuracy is an important aspect of integrating gear and building studios.

Most notably, on the front lines are mics and mic pre's, but really, everything right up to making sure you speaker cone moves OUT instead of IN on initial signal makes a big difference if you have a critical monitoring environment.

I have one visiting engineer where the first thing he does is lay the CRM monitor on it's back and put a dime on the speaker cone and plays back a kick drum. Then reverses phase and repeats. To make sure the speakers are going pushing instead of pulling when signal hits them. Whichever way makes the dime JUMP is positive phase at the speaker itself. Makes a difference.
We're not talking about flipping the phase once here.

B.
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