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What to use for Upper Mid push for electric guitars? Dynamic Microphones
Old 28th December 2010
  #31
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Monster View Post
I'm using a R-121>Chandler TG2>Chandler Tone Control>Anamod>UA2192>Logic
That's great - if you're not getting the sound you want, then look at the guitar, the amp [I would say "the player" but that could be an insult if I don't phrase it right], and what ever else could be "upstream" from the recording hardware.

The sound has to come out of the speakers of the amplifier before you have a prayer of getting it "to storage".

Is the speaker cabinet on the floor or on a barstool or road case? Sometimes you can run into problems if the cabinet is on the floor as the cabinet will couple with the floor and you will hear a different bass response in the room than you're actually getting from the speaker you're shoving a mic into.

Are you using a "room mic"? If you are then the sound should sound "right" in the room mic [though a bit too distant for most "Metallica-esque" applications].

In terms of "getting it perfect" - that also ain't gear [as you're starting from a VERY good place in terms of signal path]... so if I were going to make a recommendation it would be to breath deeply, and take your time - experiment [also known as getting frustrated like you can barely imagine] - and find THE sound that will define your record.

As far as it being like anyone else's sound - unless they're playing - it ain't gonna happen... with that said, figure out what the sound you really want to achieve is - then achieve it.

Peace.
Old 28th December 2010
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

Although it is important to begin with a good tone coming from your amp, you also need to understand that it does NOT matter what sound is coming out of your amp. It does NOT matter what the amp sounds like in the room. All that matters is what is coming out of your monitors. I have recorded guitars before that sounded like complete crap in the live room and sounded great in the control room. What comes out of your monitors is much closer to what will be coming out of people's stereos, than what you hear standing 3 feet from your amp
Old 28th December 2010
  #33
Gear Head
 
BigBoy's Avatar
 

I really like the Electrodyne EQs
Old 30th December 2010
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

I like a ribbon mic on the guitar cab too...RCA 44.

x2 for Helios and Electrodyne hi mids- I love love love the 3k on the Electrodyne, and I seem to like the 2.8k on the Helios.

But when you're talking about needing to get more hi mids that are somehow super smooth and not harsh at all...I hate to say it, but for me, I could only find one answer to that:

Pultec EQ.

The Retro 2A3 is also really good for this, but I have a Pultec EQP-1A3 whose 3k band is the best thing on the planet for that "super bitey but mysteriously not painful at all" thing on electric guitar.

The first time I tried it, all I could say was, "so THAT'S how they get that sound!"

it is awesome (and sadly, expensive).
Old 30th December 2010
  #35
Gear Maniac
 

i.m using the electrodyne 511s 3k band to add a nice push...
it's smooth enough for me to add 9db of it and not feel like its getting too harsh.
Old 30th December 2010
  #36
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUElightCory View Post
I'd just blend in a decent dynamic mic; with the R121 this should be all you need.
M88 comes to mind. They really sound great on guitar cabs/amps.
Old 30th December 2010
  #37
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wardpike View Post
Normally, I get results you're speaking of using a Royer 121 or a 421, but you can also get more "zing" in this area using a 441 or a U87.

Mic placement is also something you should consider. Where are you placing the mic(s) in relation to the speaker cone? towards the dustcap you get more of the presence you are asking for, and the sound mellows toward the middle of the cone. The closer the microphone, the more proximity and presence.

The "modern rock guitar sound" is often achieved with a new high-gain amp like a dual or triple rectifier, and using celestion greenback speakers or equivalent ceramics. The Mesa open-back 2x12 cab loaded with a brace of good dynamic ceramic magnet speakers will definitely help the cause as well.

I've recorded tons of metal and hard-rock and always please the customers following the afore-mentioned guidelines.
Best of luck!

Ward
There you go....
Old 30th December 2010
  #38
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
Mesa-Boogie Mark 2C amp (re-wired as a pre-amp)
Marshall 100 watt power amp
Marshall 4x12 cabinets
sm57 to neve style preamp
low end is filtered a lot
Works every time as well.
Old 30th December 2010
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Try a pultec or pultec type eq and boost the hi...very distinct
Old 30th December 2010
  #40
Lives for gear
 

When the player has the magic touch and control I can eq quite a lot and the integrity of the sound stays intact.
I love the Mark IIc simul\graphic for heavier stuff. That's that amp I grew up playing as a kid. When the amp and player sound good in the room a 57 and 409 up close do the trick for me almost every time for distorted sounds. Sounds like your gear is top notch. Also consider a low pass filtering up top with a shelf boost from 2k up. You can often get aggressive and smooth at the same time with that technique.
Old 31st December 2010
  #41
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ARIEL's Avatar
Cut some low end out , I usually low cut any where from 60 to 100 HZ , I also will notch out 750 HZ sometimes 250 as well . I never really boost anything for the hi end . I will move the mic around closer to the speaker center for more bite , or if too bright put it a little off axis to darken it up . This is why I want a studio robot arm for all the micro tweaks you constantly have to do. .
Old 31st December 2010
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Fret View Post
Blend the 57 with the R121, that's usually my choice
Does the guitar sound how you want it to sound?

No? make it sound how you want it to. Change strings, change guitar, change amp, change amp settings, move amp in room, move mic.

Yes, but its just not recording quite right?

Add a mic purely to pick up and emphasize that frequency band you require. Blend it to taste in the mix. No EQ or further processing needed=cleaner mix. Sad to say an SM57 was the first mic that came to mind when I read your thread title. Especially coupled with an R121
Old 31st December 2010
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Eganmedia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Monster View Post
My favorite recorded tones for electric guitars seem to have this beautiful "pushed" upper midrange. Seems to be 2khz-4khz. Its a very delicate line when boosting this area. Not enough=too dull. To much=harsh. How do I achieve that harmonically rich, smooth push in this area. I'm using a R-121>Chandler TG2>Chandler Tone Control>Anamod>UA2192>Logic
Move the R121 closer to the center of the speaker.
Old 31st December 2010
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flymax View Post
Try a pultec or pultec type eq and boost the hi...very distinct
I am suprised no mentioned the MEQ-5. They've probably been made famous for exactly this use.
Old 31st December 2010
  #45
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Monster View Post
There are multiple places on that album where the guitar is soloed. I always focus on those parts for the bass/marriage reason.

Not a bad plan, except that what usually happens when guitars are featured in isolation is that the regular guitars are muted, and the copies with more broadband eq tone are unmuted. Otherwise, they'd sound far less impressive and significantly more annoying when the mix drops away and they're pushed in level.

So guitar breakdown sections are not (generally speaking) a reliable indicator of what you're actually hearing when the full mix is in. I might be wrong about this with the album you're referencing, I wasn't there in the room and I have no info about those sessions, but mults and mute automation have been s.o.p. for a few decades now so if I had to lay money...


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 31st December 2010
  #46
Gear Addict
 
nikodemos's Avatar
 

As many people already mentioned, adding a mid range orientated mic like a 57 would add all the edge and punch you need in the upper mid blended together with the smoother r121. Actually you could use just a sm7 with the mid boost in....it's extended low mid and smooth rolled off top end seems perfect for heavilly distorded mesa kind of sound.

I usually blend a 57 or sm7 with a tlm170 or tlm193 for this kind of sound....the 170 and 193 have extremelly flat response for a LDC with detailed mids and smooth HF...so to my ears it sounds a lot like a mutant ribbon on steroids.....heh

1176 style aggressive compression helps too sometimes

...but what's more important i first ensure that i hear THAT sound in the amp room...
Old 31st December 2010
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Agree about the TLM170 and 193 are most underated mics for gtrs. As UBK mentioned a lot of smothness is happening during mastering process.

If changing mic position doesn\t help, check your: pups (I recommend SD Antiquity or Fralin) depending on what character\freq wanted. Capacitors incl. different style of wiring it is worth checking. There happens a lot with 0.12 string gauge too.

Personally i rec with two different gtr cables Lyric HG and VDH Integration.

I almost forgot, you do rec using both Neck and bridge pups, right?

Good luck!
Old 31st December 2010
  #48
Lives for gear
Upper mids? Peavey 6505/5150

Get the sound right from the amp, and you won't need any eq, at least on the single channels (assuming of course you multi mic' it..)

IF boosting is needed on the GTR buss,
then you can't go wrong with API 550a, there'a a reason because it has been around and used for that task forever
Old 1st January 2011
  #49
Lives for gear
 
Scott Whigham's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Monster View Post
My favorite recorded tones for electric guitars seem to have this beautiful "pushed" upper midrange. Seems to be 2khz-4khz. Its a very delicate line when boosting this area. Not enough=too dull. To much=harsh. How do I achieve that harmonically rich, smooth push in this area. I'm using a R-121>Chandler TG2>Chandler Tone Control>Anamod>UA2192>Logic
Something is wrong here. Looking at your signal chain, I was pretty surprised to see your gear match up with the thread title/post. The TG2 - is there another pre that pushes the upper mids more? If there is, I don't know it. That's why it is such an amazing pre for electric guitars and drums in a mix. If I had to describe the TG2 in a single sentence, I might describe it as "An amazing pre for electric guitar that really pushes the upper mids."

I have recorded a bunch of stuff with the R121 and the TG2 but I found that I did not like just the Royer; I needed to blend in either a dynamic (SM7B, SM57, PR-30) or an LDC (AKG 414). Similar to what others have said already, when I think of upper mids, I don't think "Just throw a ribbon up on that beeeyotch!" I think of dynamic mics, particularly the SM57, SM7B, and the MD421(!).

Lastly, I'd suggest that you simplify until you sort this out. Guitar->Amp->TG2. Spend a few hours working on mic placement with the Royer and then, if you aren't happy, add in a dynamic. Spend a few more hours. Record some samples. Go to sleep. Come back the next day and listen to what you recorded. Once you get that straight, add in the other bits.

And on a side note, if you aren't using both channels, why have the TG2 and the Tone Control? I'd suggest selling those and just getting an LTD1!
Old 20th January 2011
  #50
Gear Nut
 

Regarding upper mids in heavy guitar, take a look at the following. The Alter Bridge song "Come To Life" begins with unaccompanied guitar. Comparing this section of the Rock Band version of the track and the album version of the track in Logic's Match EQ produces the following (see attached).

In my experience, cab/speaker/mic and other recording chain variations will not produce curves this smooth. The smooth bell-shaped boost at 2k, and cut at 350hz, are probably eq moves that were not present in the stems sent to the game producers. Or perhaps the game producers made the inverse moves in their own prep -- i.e. 2k cut and 500hz boost -- but that would seem unlikely.

In short, yes, I feel like there's a ton of emphasis in the 2-5k region in modern rock, and from doing comparisons like this, I would guess that much of it is done with eq. You can take a track recorded with a 121 and mix in a dynamic like a 57, but that's going to get you fizz before it will get you this kind of neatly composed definition at 2k.

Edit: I'd love to hear from experienced mixers of these type of saturated guitar mixes. (Is Brian Sperber on the board?) How do you achieve this kind of upper-mid interest in a smooth/pleasing way?
Attached Thumbnails
What to use for Upper Mid push for electric guitars?-match.jpg  

Last edited by atari800; 11th February 2011 at 06:05 AM.. Reason: see above
Old 20th January 2011
  #51
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Monster View Post
I've got to have my ribbon. I've grown to hate dynamics. Always thin and brittle sounding. I have a 57, I5, and a 906. Already sold the 421. Hated it the most.
"thin and brittle" when cranked up during tracking might just equal "perfectly present" in the mix.

food for thought......
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