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Avid HD Native ???? Iluminate me !
Old 25th December 2010
  #1
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Avid HD Native ???? Iluminate me !

Hi,
I,m going to change all my system cause I have :
-Apple G5
-HD3 PCI - 1core 2accell
-192 interface

My first thought was :
-Mac Pro 8 core
-HD3 PCIe
-Avid HD

BUT..... I.ve been reading the good news about HD Native and I,m doubting.
-I never have a production with more than 120 tracks.
-With a very good computer like the 8core I dont think the Rtas its gonna be worst than TDM (64bits vs. 48bits limited no ? )
-I,ve read that the latency its not a problem in native version.

In the other hand:
-I have a Lynx Aurora interface and a 192 and they dont link each other, one is in the core, the other in the accell...
With the native version I have to sell the Aurora if I,m going to buy the Avid HD ??
-There will be a TDM2 ? It,s that true.... a TDM2 for what ?

Thanks.
Old 25th December 2010
  #2
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As far as i know a 8core MacPro easily outperforms Accel DSP cards in terms of processing power, not to mention the Hyperthreading feature.

If you don't need 495 tracks HD|Native is the way to go
Old 26th December 2010
  #3
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kurt's Avatar
Your interfaces are indispensable if you are using H/W inserts, not to mention recording session with 16-24 mics/di´s in the other end.
Old 26th December 2010
  #4
Avid HD Native ???? Iluminate me !

Native has 2 digilink ports - each supports 32io. Connect aurora to one, and up to 2 hd io/192s to the other to get 64io.

Tdm 2? No word at all. I'd guess at least a couple of years yet, but I don't really have a clue.
Old 26th December 2010
  #5
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ok... so tdm its getting obsolete ?
Old 26th December 2010
  #6
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DarkSky Media's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullpush View Post
ok... so tdm its getting obsolete ?
Nope, not at all.
Old 26th December 2010
  #7
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullpush View Post
With the native version I have to sell the Aurora if I,m going to buy the Avid HD ??
If you already own preamps (which I assume you do since you got a HD system) then you can use your Aurora as an interface for PT9. You only need an additional FW card from Lynx.

I would check the situation with plug-ins though. If you already own lots of plug-ins in TDM format you will have to re-buy them in RTAS which might or might not make sense.
Old 26th December 2010
  #8
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Almost all TDM plug-ins include an RTAS license.

I've heard that HD Native is wicked fast compared to a regular HD system on the same computer. If that's really true it could be a preferable way to go for people who don't need the low latency of a TDM system.
Old 26th December 2010
  #9
I am very pleased with the performance of the HD Native system.
Old 26th December 2010
  #10
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It,s not the same low-latency in tdm than in native version ? I have to investigate.
What about the "bounces to disk" in HD native ? As far as I know in tdm the Core card keeps a part for this procedure and its very difficult to miss quality in this process.
Old 26th December 2010
  #11
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
I am very pleased with the performance of the HD Native system.
Have you had a chance yet to test with Logic, etc.?

One of the attractive things about HD Native is it's reported ability to function with other DAWs. Although *I* would be mixing in PT, being in a smaller market means that I have recording clients bringing me stuff in every DAW there is. And though I am aware of the tools/processes to import sessions from other DAWs to PT and would usually import to PT, some people want come and continue to use whatever they are familiar with.

If HD Native actually works I'd buy prior to the beginning of the year. As yet I've not been able to find any reports of users trying this advertised functionality (running different DAWs).
Old 26th December 2010
  #12
Deleted #157546
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Almost all TDM plug-ins include an RTAS license.

I've heard that HD Native is wicked fast compared to a regular HD system on the same computer. If that's really true it could be a preferable way to go for people who don't need the low latency of a TDM system.

Is there really a noticeable latency difference? I need to spec a new HD system for work I was considering a mac with HD native and 2 UAD-2 Quad cards opposed to 2 Avid DSP cards.

I could be tracking up to 16-24 inputs at a time with 4-5 monitor mixes going in the box.
Old 26th December 2010
  #13
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I'm running hd native with an omni and a 16x16 on a current 8 core. It way outperforms the hd3 on dual 2 g5 that I replaced. I mean waaaay outperforms. It feels very snappy, like a smoothly running hd rig. With the various buffer settings and llm option I can track with comparable latency or better with no external mixer. It has been a fairly easy transition. All tdm plugs with rtas versions have just installed from the tdm installer and worked normally. There are a couple of quirky bugs in 9.0 that need to be worked around but nothing that stops you working easily. I'm really pleased. If I had upgraded my pci cards to hd3 accel on pcie it would have cost a lot more and not been capable of this level of performance.

J
Old 26th December 2010
  #14
Deleted #157546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Ruston View Post
I'm running hd native with an omni and a 16x16 on a current 8 core. It way outperforms the hd3 on dual 2 g5 that I replaced. I mean waaaay outperforms. It feels very snappy, like a smoothly running hd rig. With the various buffer settings and llm option I can track with comparable latency or better with no external mixer. It has been a fairly easy transition. All tdm plugs with rtas versions have just installed from the tdm installer and worked normally. There are a couple of quirky bugs in 9.0 that need to be worked around but nothing that stops you working easily. I'm really pleased. If I had upgraded my pci cards to hd3 accel on pcie it would have cost a lot more and not been capable of this level of performance.

J
Thanks for your input!! That's kind of how I feel. I think I can save a lot of money and get a better rig. I want to get a HD rig for work, but also would like to get some UAD cards as well. Only so much room in the new macs and I don't really want to mess around with expansion bays.
Old 26th December 2010
  #15
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

The need for multiple monitor mixes could be a problem. From what I've read I think it provides 6 channels of ultra-low latency foldback monitoring. I'd look into how that can be used.
Old 26th December 2010
  #16
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Well I'd wait and see on the uad cards. Couple of reasons:

1. There are issues with the way they perform in pt. The proper rtas coding may help but there will still be a lot of latency and obviously in PT there's an ADC cap to ensure compatability with hd.

2. They're hugely expensive when you compare to the huge deals that you can get on native bundles from the likes of waves these days.

3. As with tdm plug ins you're introducing a limit to how many you can have. I opened 768 waves ssl strips on the new rig. Now of course you don't need those (!) but it's a point that bears consideration.

4. You quite often read sweeping statements about how duende or uad 'blows waves away' etc etc. It's just rubbish. They're all just plug ins. Decent enough, well designed for the most part. They're tools. They lack the magic of the best of hardware but they do a good job. There's nothing that special or terrible about any of the 1176s, ssl strips, la2a's etc. Don't get caught in the hype. They're all comparable. Follow your wallet.
Old 26th December 2010
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Have you had a chance yet to test with Logic, etc.?

As yet I've not been able to find any reports of users trying this advertised functionality (running different DAWs).
I gather there are little reviews because it will be very rare for a client to purchase this system and bounce directly to the software they previously used instead of Pro Tools HDN. Though rare; there are some users who want the exact versatility you speak of. It is possible and plausible. Though I have not done any direct RECORDING with Logic and the HD Native card running Core Audio Mode - I have tried it with multi-track playback and it seemed to operate exactly the same as the Symphony 64 PCI-e system we also have outfitted in our Mac Pro. I will surely test it further in the coming weeks if I have time, but I think for any serious sessions I will use Pro Tools without question. With that said - I can quickly bounce back and forth depending if needed. Avid's Core Audio Drivers are said to have been optimized with the release of PT9 and work well with latching to ancillary programs. Inside your Core Audio platform - the Core Audio driver will show 64 I/O in your Environment. So, In Logic - all 64 I/O appear, but of course, only your useable I/O will show depending on your selected Interface[s]. I can't speak to any Latency question with Logic or other, but PTHDN has had no problem in our studio thus far and I really like working with it.
Old 26th December 2010
  #18
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Bob...yes, I've found llm perfect for overdubbing a single performer but I haven't tried using it for more than that. I think it could be clunky. We need to look at it. BUT at 32 sample buffers, the roundtrip latency is equal to hd. So we're back to the same question as always...do I find that 2-3ms acceptable? I know you don't. I'm inclined to agree, but it seems to depend a little on the individuals and how easily they can see each other. Of course if we're tracking we're usually in a room with a desk so the issue becomes trivial. There's a market for these cue mix/headphone systems but, manufacturers to note please, NOT digital! That puts us back where we were.

J
Old 27th December 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Almost all TDM plug-ins include an RTAS license.

I've heard that HD Native is wicked fast compared to a regular HD system on the same computer. If that's really true it could be a preferable way to go for people who don't need the low latency of a TDM system.

Pro tool 9 is wicked fast compared to standard PTHD..... I was working on a session at home in PT 9 then moved to the studio and was pissed all night at the speed of the PTHD 8 system at the studio. Spinning beach ballz and all at the studio along witha few crashes. PT 9 at home strong as an OX for 5hrs straight until I tried to import session data. Other than that its great
Old 27th December 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
Pro tool 9 is wicked fast compared to standard PTHD..... I was working on a session at home in PT 9 then moved to the studio and was pissed all night at the speed of the PTHD 8 system at the studio. Spinning beach ballz and all at the studio along witha few crashes. PT 9 at home strong as an OX for 5hrs straight until I tried to import session data. Other than that its great
You must have been using a horribly setup system at the studio then.
Thousands of studios have been using PTHD8 for a couple of years now.
Do you really think we all experienced spinning beachballs and crashes every day?
Old 27th December 2010
  #21
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please, Roc....

Roc, have you noticed some problems when you are mixing or summing in native ? what was your biggest production with this configuration ? does the native version supports well four plugs in 60 tracks with busses, etc... ??

Thanks.
Old 27th December 2010
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by pullpush View Post
Roc, have you noticed some problems when you are mixing or summing in native ? what was your biggest production with this configuration ? does the native version supports well four plugs in 60 tracks with busses, etc... ??

Thanks.
I have noticed ZERO problems. Lets put it this way, this system has MORE than enough power for ANYTHING, I've thrown at it, WHILE WORKING with real applications. Nothing is wrong with the summing or bussing so far as I can tell.
Old 27th December 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
You must have been using a horribly setup system at the studio then.
Thousands of studios have been using PTHD8 for a couple of years now.
Do you really think we all experienced spinning beachballs and crashes every day?

My friend I have thousands of hours logged on many PTHD setups. I mix in the box and once a session with 100 plus tracks gets loaded up with auto-tune, tons of plugins and automation and the like PTHD starts to move slower this is a fact.

The real question is have you used Pro Tools 9... Judging by you statement I doubt you have or you wouldn't have made the statement you did.

I suspect the high rate of crashes may have been due to transferring the session from PTHD8 to PT9 then back to PTHD8. But over all PT 9 processes faster, starts and stops playback faster, and under full load runs better in my experience.

Now once you have first hand experience with both setups as I do, then by all means report back and let us know what you think. I am willing to bet you notice the same thing.
Old 27th December 2010
  #24
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thanks Roc.

seems like hd native is my way to go.

but for me its difficult to think that this guys are not gonna make newer versions of dsp or somethings like that.
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