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K&H O300 - Opportunity to get them new for cheap while I ordered Focal Twin6 Studio Monitors
Old 29th December 2010
  #31
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laboso's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreaeffe View Post
It is, indeed, a matter of personal taste.

As I mentioned, more than the sound itself of the Twins or their tracking & mixing (especially the latter is great) "usability", what I kept feeling annoyed me a bit was the decidedly above average hiss of the speakers/amps, I mean when idle or where I'd have expected almost dead silence; and the unquestionably different, and to my ears or way of listening/working somewhat odd, soundstage that the twin woofer with mixed/shared frequency duties arrangement of these speakers brings to the table.
Perhaps even "annoy" is too strong a word...it's like noticing something U then realize U shouldn't actually be noticing, shouldn't be getting your attention at all.
This is where I felt more comfortable with the Solo6 - sounded like they sound, the character and Focal family feeling both in the broad bass and the accentuated, frizzly highs is there, but no other peculiar things or oddities catching my attention, they behaved just like I'd expect a nearfield to do.
Also, they don't go into almost-midfield-monitor land, it's a set of nearfields, period.
And it's even priced more attractively than the Twins, if that were an issue.

The extreme low end response of the Solo6 compared to the Twins is not all that different, in fact if I remember correctly they have approx the same specs (didn't check this out, I just seem to remember some brochures), and looking at the size of the boxes one can't help being amazed by the quantity of useful bass information provided by a small monitor like the Solo - but the low and central midrange is fuller in the Twins, and gives U the impression of handling things easily, even perhaps bringing them subjectively more upfront.
Top end and extreme lows are pretty much in the same ballpark between both.

Neither of them have a comparable bass to the KH.
I mean in terms of type and character of the bass range, not in terms of more/less frequency response, although I did get the feeling that if I'd run test tones through them the KH would have gone a hair lower than the Focals, and obviously without any port turbulence/air movement sonically getting in the way.
But in terms of tightness and controlled response, the KH to my ears just were a lot more tidy, non-flabby, not even a tiny bit.


Again - to my ears, for my taste, in my opinion & experience.

A
F
Interesting... thx.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #32
Gear Maniac
Quote:
And, the NON bass-reflex/ported design is quite refreshing to hear, in the long run a lot more telling than the sometimes artificially extended low end of other speakers.
More artificial extension? what do you mean by this? Isn't a ported design better so because the air pressure resonates the case / impairs the drivers excursion possibilities/rumbles the speakers so there is extra distortion?

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flavoured and hi-mid forward tweeter
isn't that fixable by notching down the HF contour?

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, but I at least always notice their "sound", it's on everything one listens through them.
? not sure what you mean here, that it has a character and you could blindly say it is a focal twin?

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looser
What do you mean by this? that the bass doesn't go that deep or worse transient response?
I would say that the K&H sound like they stay superclean right up until the are where the limiter would kick in -
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the Focals sound like the onset and actual presence of distortion is more gradual and IMHO more noticeable. A bit like comparing a hard limiter a 0dB FSD to a soft clip gradually from -4dB FSD to the top.
from what point is the increase in distortion apparent to you? from 90dB onwards?
I perceive distortion from that point in the higher freqs but it could also be the smileyface mastering in most dance productions. (I always find myself turning the mids up, with any speaker)

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quite high hiss level of the speaker/internal amps system itself (an issue I see popping up in many discussions, but I don't know if it's common to all Twins or to just a certain series - haven't tried that many different pairs)
Not really, if put them on I can only hear in them very soft(in the sense in total silence, no computer turned on, I have to assign myself to hear the noise) at listening pos (1.5-2 m), if I put my ear next to the twin, I hear them pretty well.

But doesn't this have to do something with the Class D amps used? they generate RF by themself.

Is the use of class D amps something bad, another point for the K+H O300 which uses AB?


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If I were to choose, I'd pick the K&H (especially if U're getting a good price deal on them!!) because I found judging presence of sounds and mix elements, both in sense of their relative "nearness" and stereo filed position, and judging of what exactly the bass end of my recordings was doing, was a bit easier but more imprtantly a lot more obvious on the K&H, compared to the Twins.
How much further does the bass extend in reality? Also maybe the K+H o300 is a better option when I will get a sub, because the focal sub extends to 30 hz and the K+H 810 extends to 17 hz! (ported design, good/bad?)



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On the matter of stands, please DO listen to what reid & dubrichie [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS]suggested (and I do too):don't buy the hifi community esoterica snakeoil stands theory, be sensible and practical - if U can't get decent and sonically unnoticeable stands for under 200 EUR, well then, something is not right.
I found a nice pair for 129 euro with good height and a broad plate, but I want the depth of the plate to be bigger so I'm going to have them welded a bit bigger, and small vertical peaks at the sides so it can't slide off, only if the force is big enough to make the stand fall altogether. Therefore I'm also going to have the feet extended and heavier with lead. It looks like the top plate might be hollow, is this bad in anyway for the sound?
Proel - Technology as Art

Quote:
Happy Holidays & Happy monitors,
you too!
Old 2nd January 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 
andreaeffe's Avatar
Hello aquinox -

some of the stuff U're asking me I don't have a scientific/speaker designer answer for, because I am not a monitor or speaker or acoustic transducer designer in any way, I do my engineering/recording/producing/mixing and as I said it's both a matter of taste, and an empirical matter of listening... which of course is what counts, in the end, but certainly doesn't entitle me to praise or trash one acoustic & electronic design or the other - just expressing what I felt & thought by listening and working on these monitors.

So, let's see:


Quote:
More artificial extension? what do you mean by this? Isn't a ported design better so because the air pressure resonates the case / impairs the drivers excursion possibilities/rumbles the speakers so there is extra distortion?
I just meant that most, or perhaps if pushed very hard/to high volumes one might say all bass reflex/ported speakers exhibit a more or less noticeable and more or less distracting/disturbing "air turbulence", port noise.
U certainly must have seen & read some speaker review mentioning it for some speaker at some time.
And I meant that most bass reflex designs seem to achieve an extra low end extension with an "added bump" (I'm saying this very figuratively and in super plain speak) below what the actual woofer speaker cone would be giving by itself. And that sometimes has a hyping effect, not entirely reliable in terms of accurate bass/sub-bass judging.

The K&Hs don't have either of these characteristics - because it is a sealed, non ported enclosure.


Quote:
isn't that fixable by notching down the HF contour?
Hmm, no - not really.
U can make the HF subjectively quieter, or lower it's prominence compared to what the woofer is doing, but the very responsive, bright (and also very revealing) character of the berillium tweeter will always be there, obviously - it's still the same speaker, either louder or quieter.


Quote:
? not sure what you mean here, that it has a character and you could blindly say it is a focal twin?
See above, r.e. the berillium tweeter.
Not boasting that "I'd recognize a Focal Twin or Solo blindfolded between a thousand other monitors", but the behaviour and subjective "sound" of that tweeter is one U'd certainly notice - just like ribbon tweeters behave and sound differently that other, more let's say conventional designs.


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What do you mean by this? that the bass doesn't go that deep or worse transient response?
No, not talking of bass extension in the frequency range. No prob there.
The term "tightness of the bass range" is the appropriate one, and a hard one to describe in words.
Perhaps, yes, it has something to do with slightly better transients, or with cone damping and movement...as I said, I'm not a speaker or transducer designer.


Quote:
from what point is the increase in distortion apparent to you? from 90dB onwards?
I perceive distortion from that point in the higher freqs but it could also be the smileyface mastering in most dance productions. (I always find myself turning the mids up, with any speaker)
Hmmm, didn't take note or measure the dB level, sorry.
I noticed it on more "crowded" high fequency content mixes, on very rythmical and bright acoustic guitars, on tambourine, or on drummers going wild with cymbals, or on more aggressively mastered material (apart from and over the sometimes inherent distortion in that material, or on BAD masters, themselves!).

Interesting, your point about what U hear in the "smiley face" dance masters...


Quote:
Not really, if put them on I can only hear in them very soft(in the sense in total silence, no computer turned on, I have to assign myself to hear the noise) at listening pos (1.5-2 m), if I put my ear next to the twin, I hear them pretty well.
But doesn't this have to do something with the Class D amps used? they generate RF by themself.
Is the use of class D amps something bad, another point for the K+H O300 which uses AB?
Don't have the faintest clue about hiss levels in Class D vs. Class AB amping in active studio monitors, sorry!

What I heard was quite evident in a quiet control room (shouldn't they all be?), and a LOT louder than the hiss in Genelec 1031s or Adam P33s or Yamaha HS80s or KRK VXT8 monitors that I had immediately nearby to directly compare.
Hope that helps, if U do some comparisons and see if U hear/get the same.

But, as some have already pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, it appears to be an issue on SOME Twins, not all of them - don't know if it was a particular batch, or up to a certain production date, etc - I didn't investigate further.
And, we all have more or less hiss-sensitive ears, in more or less quiet control room environments (a computer fan or two, or aggressive air conditioning air movement can make a world of difference...).


Quote:
How much further does the bass extend in reality? Also maybe the K+H o300 is a better option when I will get a sub, because the focal sub extends to 30 hz and the K+H 810 extends to 17 hz! (ported design, good/bad?)
The published, factory specs say:
down to 35Hz, -3dB point or down to 40Hz, -2dB point for the KH
down to 40Hz, -3dB point for both the Focal Twin and Solo6.

But specs can mean... well, maybe not nothing, but a lot LESS that printing on paper would imply, as we all know.
The ear, again, is the judge. And I heard as I tried to describe last time.

Didn't look into the subwoofer...
My gut feeling is that neither of those monitors scream for a subwoofer - they both give all the bass U might need to know about by themselves.
And, generally speaking, I am personally not a fan of satellite+subs based systems, I find them OK for home/hifi listening or bars & venues, but not for studios - there are always some issues with the crossover points, sub level, and speaker placement, despite the many theories it's still a bit of a shot in the dark, in my opinion & experience.
These two really top range and top quality monitors are impressive and useable for most any kind of music without the sub, I'd say.

Also, when speaking of 30Hz or 17Hz, it would require having a ROOM as neutral and well tuned and relatively BIG to be able to make good use of such frequencies!

Quote:
I found a nice pair for 129 euro with good height and a broad plate, but I want the depth of the plate to be bigger so I'm going to have them welded a bit bigger, and small vertical peaks at the sides so it can't slide off, only if the force is big enough to make the stand fall altogether. Therefore I'm also going to have the feet extended and heavier with lead. It looks like the top plate might be hollow, is this bad in anyway for the sound?
Good find!
Also look into the good old sand filling, instead of lead - might be cheaper, simpler, and more than adequate.
Watch out with the vertical peaks at the sides, out of just common sense I'd have them close but not clamping/grasping the speaker cabinet, there for safety, but not touching it.
Wouldn't know for sure about the hollow top metal plate, an acoustician might have some useful input here, but I seriously doubt that it is a hollow cavity deep/high and resonant enough to bear any significant change to the speaker's sound.

Wow, now this has become an in-depth thread!


Regards,

A
F
Old 9th January 2011
  #34
Gear Maniac
Quote:
some of the stuff U're asking me I don't have a scientific/speaker designer answer for, because I am not a monitor or speaker or acoustic transducer designer in any way, I do my engineering/recording/producing/mixing and as I said it's both a matter of taste, and an empirical matter of listening... which of course is what counts, in the end, but certainly doesn't entitle me to praise or trash one acoustic & electronic design or the other - just expressing what I felt & thought by listening and working on these monitors.
perfectly fine, I just read some theory on the net so I'm not an expert as well. Just wanted to see/hear whether there was someone who was experienced with the technology so I could learn from that.


Quote:
I just meant that most, or perhaps if pushed very hard/to high volumes one might say all bass reflex/ported speakers exhibit a more or less noticeable and more or less distracting/disturbing "air turbulence", port noise.
U certainly must have seen & read some speaker review mentioning it for some speaker at some time.
Honestly never heard about it. All I can say is that at when playing a 35 hz sine at reasonable volume stuff in my room starts to resonate and the twin appears to be reproducing it perfectly. when going down further response drops off very quickly.

Quote:
And I meant that most bass reflex designs seem to achieve an extra low end extension with an "added bump" (I'm saying this very figuratively and in super plain speak) below what the actual woofer speaker cone would be giving by itself. And that sometimes has a hyping effect, not entirely reliable in terms of accurate bass/sub-bass judging.
hmmm yeah, I also have the rears of the speakers facing the corners so that might also be extra extension/bumping the bass. So you say the 35 hz tone, which comes from the speaker is not an accurate image of what really is 35 hz?

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The K&Hs don't have either of these characteristics - because it is a sealed, non ported enclosure.
yes, and it has an 8 incher.. which would add to the real depth it could produce.. right?

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Hmm, no - not really.
U can make the HF subjectively quieter, or lower it's prominence compared to what the woofer is doing, but the very responsive, bright (and also very revealing) character of the berillium tweeter will always be there, obviously - it's still the same speaker, either louder or quieter.
Quote:
See above, r.e. the berillium tweeter.
Not boasting that "I'd recognize a Focal Twin or Solo blindfolded between a thousand other monitors", but the behaviour and subjective "sound" of that tweeter is one U'd certainly notice - just like ribbon tweeters behave and sound differently that other, more let's say conventional designs.
Ok.

Hmmm, didn't take note or measure the dB level, sorry.
I noticed it on more "crowded" high fequency content mixes, on very rythmical and bright acoustic guitars, on tambourine, or on drummers going wild with cymbals, or on more aggressively mastered material (apart from and over the sometimes inherent distortion in that material, or on BAD masters, themselves!).

Quote:
Interesting, your point about what U hear in the "smiley face" dance masters...
Maybe it is subjective, could be that I'm oversensitive for HF, but I always find myself turning up the mids so it sounds better to my ears.. sometimes by ALOT! (on every speaker, so that can't be it, either my ears or the master :p)

Quote:
Don't have the faintest clue about hiss levels in Class D vs. Class AB amping in active studio monitors, sorry!

What I heard was quite evident in a quiet control room (shouldn't they all be?), and a LOT louder than the hiss in Genelec 1031s or Adam P33s or Yamaha HS80s or KRK VXT8 monitors that I had immediately nearby to directly compare.
Hmm could be my computer making quite some noise (35-45 dB) so I don't really notice it. my next computer is going to be ultra quiet (fanless powersupply, no graphics card, dampened case, big fans for slower rotation)

Quote:
Hope that helps, if U do some comparisons and see if U hear/get the same.
will compare when I have them both turned on, when my fuses arrive

Quote:
The published, factory specs say:
down to 35Hz, -3dB point or down to 40Hz, -2dB point for the KH
down to 40Hz, -3dB point for both the Focal Twin and Solo6.

But specs can mean... well, maybe not nothing, but a lot LESS that printing on paper would imply, as we all know.
The ear, again, is the judge. And I heard as I tried to describe last time.
Yeah I know. Just by logic I thought that the o300 would reproduce the deeper bass more accurately. But I never heard them so I can't really say what I heard.

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Didn't look into the subwoofer...
me not either, but because of the price and its relatively small power usage the K+H seems more attractive, especially because it goes down to 17..

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My gut feeling is that neither of those monitors scream for a subwoofer - they both give all the bass U might need to know about by themselves.
And, generally speaking, I am personally not a fan of satellite+subs based systems, I find them OK for home/hifi listening or bars & venues, but not for studios - there are always some issues with the crossover points, sub level, and speaker placement, despite the many theories it's still a bit of a shot in the dark, in my opinion & experience.
These two really top range and top quality monitors are impressive and useable for most any kind of music without the sub, I'd say.
Yup. Will enjoy these and a whole other stuff to buy (the aforementioned computer, current beasty is nearly 6 yrs old)
But the subwoofer won't be for monitoring only just for a banging sound for more enjoyment in dance music
Quote:
Also, when speaking of 30Hz or 17Hz, it would require having a ROOM as neutral and well tuned and relatively BIG to be able to make good use of such frequencies!
Was thinking the same, currently it wouldn't be of use at all unless I like my room to be one big standing wave.

Quote:
Good find! Also look into the good old sand filling, instead of lead - might be cheaper, simpler, and more than adequate.
Watch out with the vertical peaks at the sides, out of just common sense I'd have them close but not clamping/grasping the speaker cabinet, there for safety, but not touching it.
Yeah sand/lead I don't think it will make a lot of difference because of the airspace between the lead.. mehbe combination between lead and sand lol.
The peaks I'll put quite some distance, and none in front, because I'd damage it when putting it in/out of the speaker stand. And I'll cover them in rubber so still no scratches should something happen.

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Wouldn't know for sure about the hollow top metal plate, an acoustician might have some useful input here, but I seriously doubt that it is a hollow cavity deep/high and resonant enough to bear any significant change to the speaker's sound.
Exactly, I will put rubber knobs that came with my focals under the focals . If an acoustician could chime in ..?heh


Quote:
Wow, now this has become an in-depth thread!
Haha I like it
Old 10th January 2011
  #35
Gear Addict
 
Marineville's Avatar
 

I had the Focals and K+H 0300Ds side by side in my studio for 10 days and tried mixing on both. I loved the Focals and thought they sounded really very nice, incredible depth and very revealing. The K+H were not so instant with me and at first I found them a little dull. After tweaking the eq on the back of the K+H things changed though, and I found that the mixes I had done on them sounded better than the mixes I'd done on the Focals.

After a while I missed the involvement whilst listening to the Focals that I got from the K+H and eventually I bought the 0300Ds and sent the Focals back.

As for volume, I really don't know what the problem is. The K+H are plenty loud enough and in their intended nearfield / mid range position they will hurt your ears before the limiters kick in. The only explanation I can think of as to why people say they are too quiet is that they have them too far away.

The Focals are lovely speakers and very similar to the K+H but after extended listening and mixing the K+H just had that 'something' that made me go "aaaaah" every time I listened to them. The only speaker I have heard that I would happily replace my 0300Ds with is the Geithain 901K and they are 3 times the price and 3 times the size.
Old 13th January 2011
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Ruston View Post
Look, I think there are a lot of valid points about both these monitors (as well as some speculation) but you really need to test them for yourself. They're both capable of doing the job. But it does depend how you lean sonically. You will either gravitate towards the warmer sound of the k+h or the slightly more 'stark' sound of the focals.
I don't agree on you saying o300's sound 'warm'. Actually, i don't thing there is any real characteristic about the o300 at all. It truly depends on what you play on them
Old 13th January 2011
  #37
Lives for gear
 

Well its possible that they're very room dependent, but I owned those monitors for long time and I know four or five people that have them, and they all have the low end trimmed down on the back. When I demoed them originally the low end was trimmed down on the demo pair. Most people find them bassy in my experience. That's not to say that with that trim in place they're not a very accurate monitor. They're exceptional for sure.

J
Old 13th January 2011
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
TonyR's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marineville View Post
As for volume, I really don't know what the problem is. The K+H are plenty loud enough and in their intended nearfield / mid range position they will hurt your ears before the limiters kick in. The only explanation I can think of as to why people say they are too quiet is that they have them too far away.
Hi,

i think the reason why some people feel that they are not loud enough, has maybe something to do with the XLR input of the O300.
The european broadcast standard is +6dBu (+1.55V) and that's the sensivity of the XLR analog input of the K+H O300.

1 year ago I had the RME Fireface 400 connected to the Presonus Central Station and then to the O300 and Genelec 8030. I always thought why are the O300 so quiet when camparing to the Genelecs. I had always put up the monitor gain of the central station when listening through the O300.
But this changed, now I use the Lynx Aurora 16VT and the X-Desk and I can tell you, now they are really loud! When I listen to a CD through the Aurora I can't turn the monitor gain of the x-desk past 2 and it goes up to 11!
(I'm sitting maybe 1,5m away from the speaker)

I not a technician but maybe it has something to do with it???
Old 2nd March 2011
  #39
Gear Head
 
Dmytro_ua's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
i think the reason why some people feel that they are not loud enough, has maybe something to do with the XLR input of the O300.
The european broadcast standard is +6dBu (+1.55V) and that's the sensivity of the XLR analog input of the K+H O300.

1 year ago I had the RME Fireface 400 connected to the Presonus Central Station and then to the O300 and Genelec 8030. I always thought why are the O300 so quiet when camparing to the Genelecs. I had always put up the monitor gain of the central station when listening through the O300.
But this changed, now I use the Lynx Aurora 16VT and the X-Desk and I can tell you, now they are really loud! When I listen to a CD through the Aurora I can't turn the monitor gain of the x-desk past 2 and it goes up to 11!
(I'm sitting maybe 1,5m away from the speaker)

I not a technician but maybe it has something to do with it???
Really?
RME & K+H are German companies. I thought they shouldn't have any standard differencies due to the same region...
Old 2nd March 2011
  #40
Gear Addict
 
rob61's Avatar
 

I use, and really like, my KH0300 monitors. While I haven't compared them to the Focal Twins, I do have several other monitors in other rooms that I also use (Tannoy, KRKs, original Mackie 824s, and even an old pair of Urie 809s in the studio that my clients like... go figure).

My most preferred, and main, monitors are currently the KH0300s. I think they are by far the most revealing, and by far the "prettiest" sounding. Now there's a technical engineering term for you. They sound open and smooth. But they are also very revealing. So what is going on? Some people say they have a "smiley face", or in other words, are a bit scooped in the mids. They are definately not "mid-forward", yet they sound balanced and... nice.

I've pondered exactly what is going on with these, and why they garner such comments as "smiley face", "scooped", and "pretty" while in essence they are pretty flat and very revealing. I have a theory, but I've not tested this....

As a true 3 way system, I think it has to do with the way the mid amp/transducers handle the transients of the mids. I think they are there, but I think either the transducer material or amp (probably the thick mid cone material) is slightly softening the leading edge of mid range material. So its there as it should be but the leading edge of the waveforms might be getting slightly damped. This softens the transients of the mids and makes them less harsh.

Therefore, you end up with a monitor that has exceptional transient response in the highs for clarity and localization, yet a softer transient in the mids which causes them to sound "pretty" and not harsh or "mid-forward" in the mids. Of course the bass is exceptional too with a tight solid feel.

I really like the KH0300 monitors as I've stated. But they do have a "sound" of their own quite unlike other monitors.
Old 2nd March 2011
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Tube World's Avatar
The Twins are good monitors in their price range, however they cannot compete with the more expensive true 3 way system of the 0300's. The Twins are really a 2 1/2 way system since both woofers produce bass. So the dedicated 3 way system is going to offer you more. In addition like my beloved PMC's, the K & H have better amplifiers inside and offer more separation and depth (being able to hear reverb tails for instance) compared to the Twins. So it's like a better microscope that offers you more information. This is not to knock the Twins, as I have not heard a better monitor under $3,200. But with increased price, usually offers better components.
Old 2nd March 2011
  #42
Lives for gear
 
KevWind's Avatar
Ah I was going to ask I anybody has had experience with PCM . Specifically The TB2S- AII - and the DB1S- AII Understanding these are two way and they appear to be Acoustic suspension Yes? Any thoughts on how these would compare to both the Focal Solo6 Twin 6 and or the K&H 0300 ?
Old 4th March 2011
  #43
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KevWind's Avatar
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