The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Speakers too detailed? I can hear so many flaws! Studio Monitors
Old 29th December 2010
  #61
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by editronmaximon View Post
]Truth is truth, and it is paramount by its very definition. Its validity is not dependent on anyone's "emotional connection". Who are you, claiming to be the arbiter for all as to when truth "matters"? That is in fact grandiose and delusional.

I hear what you're saying. To be clear: I did not say that anyone's perspective negates the truthfulness of a given thing; I simply said that if someone isn't affected by a truth, the fact of its true-ness is irrelevant to their experience.

What I said is, as far as I can tell, a truth. Restated, it goes like this: Truth only matters to someone if it matters to them.

The point of listening to a recording is to have an experience. If there are things going on in that recording that do not impact Joe's experience, then they are irrelevant to Joe. They may be relevant to other people, but that does not matter one iota to Joe.

One of the jobs of the producer is to make those kinds of calls, to intuit and understand which aspects of a performance and a recording matter in the grand scheme, and which ones don't. Truth has nothing to do with any of this, this is art and it's a moving target on the best of days.

All of your attempts to make my statement bigger than it is, all of the motivations you ascribe to me regarding truth, philosophy, and controlling other people's experiences... I categorically deny all of them. What you think of me is none of my business, and if you're interested in my understanding my perspective I will happily share it with you as best I can. But if it's more convenient to create a flawed idea of me then shoot down that idea on the basis of principle, I'll respectfully take a pass on further dialog.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 29th December 2010
  #62
GSF
Gear Addict
"We have art in order not to die of the truth."
— Friedrich Nietzsche
Old 29th December 2010
  #63
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
Er. Why not just mix on your NS10s and check the mix occasionally on your 'too detailed' monitors till you strike a happy balance?
Hey get out of this thread with your obviously-the-best-idea solutions! we'll have none of that!



btw on another note you know a thread has become epic when ubk starts discussing the nature of truth lol
Old 29th December 2010
  #64
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I hear what you're saying. To be clear: I did not say that anyone's perspective negates the truthfulness of a given thing; I simply said that if someone isn't affected by a truth, the fact of its true-ness is irrelevant to their experience.

What I said is, as far as I can tell, a truth. Restated, it goes like this: Truth only matters to someone if it matters to them.

The point of listening to a recording is to have an experience. If there are things going on in that recording that do not impact Joe's experience, then they are irrelevant to Joe. They may be relevant to other people, but that does not matter one iota to Joe.

One of the jobs of the producer is to make those kinds of calls, to intuit and understand which aspects of a performance and a recording matter in the grand scheme, and which ones don't. Truth has nothing to do with any of this, this is art and it's a moving target on the best of days.

All of your attempts to make my statement bigger than it is, all of the motivations you ascribe to me regarding truth, philosophy, and controlling other people's experiences... I categorically deny all of them. What you think of me is none of my business, and if you're interested in my understanding my perspective I will happily share it with you as best I can. But if it's more convenient to create a flawed idea of me then shoot down that idea on the basis of principle, I'll respectfully take a pass on further dialog.


Gregory Scott - ubk

Nice try.


But your problem, whether you are "aware" of it or not, is that you do make sweeping, pontificating statements, projecting your ego trip onto all, as if you were teaching children, but without any real substance or authority to back your pearls of wisdom up.

Then you try to walk your statements back, with "that's not what I meant".

Busted.

For example, you say, "The point of listening to a recording is to have an experience". Well, wait a minute, Baba Greg, that may be one point, or maybe it is actually the only point for you. But the statement is obviously not true generally for everyone, because there can be any number of "points" or reasons for listening to a recording. You could even listen to a recording for many reasons at once.

For another example, you say, "Truth has nothing to do with any of this, this is art....". That's absurd on its face, imo. Art and truth are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary.

Hard to tell, but I think you may be reading to many self-help books, and you may have started thinking that you have mastered reality.

Old 29th December 2010
  #65
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by editronmaximon View Post
Hard to tell, but I think you may be reading to many self-help books, and you may have started thinking that you have mastered reality.

I haven't mastered reality, I don't even know what that means. But I *have* mastered the ignore list, welcome to mine.

For whatever it's worth, I read your words, I read your tone of voice, and I believe you are guilty of every single motivation and behavior you ascribe to me, right down to the part about teaching me as if I were a child.

Many men before you have come at me with their agendas, taking my words as personal insults of some variety, and many will come long after you've faded. What all of you underestimate is the ease with which I decline your invitations to suffer.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 29th December 2010
  #66
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

.
Speakers too detailed? I can hear so many flaws!-rileyfire2.jpeg
"What a revoltin' development this is!"
.
Old 29th December 2010
  #67
Lives for gear
 
RonT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I haven't mastered reality, I don't even know what that means. But I *have* mastered the ignore list, welcome to mine.

For whatever it's worth, I read your words, I read your tone of voice, and I believe you are guilty of every single motivation and behavior you ascribe to me, right down to the part about teaching me as if I were a child.

Many men before you have come at me with their agendas, taking my words as personal insults of some variety, and many will come long after you've faded. What all of you underestimate is the ease with which I decline your invitations to suffer.


Gregory Scott - ubk
OMG this is freaking halarious!! Man Greg I love your zen bro!!!!

Come on guys, this is just crazy! OMG,...I have made some speakers that plays stuff that regular studio monitors don't play and that 99.2% of consumers won't hear as well so let me take the time to fix these errors that most people in the world will never hear and most people in the world wont even care or interpret it as a mistake!

What happen to the music in music? Why is everything so damn technical now-a-days? Some of the best music ever recorded is filled with errors on top of errors on top of errors! Music is about emotions and interpretations of those emotions. I hate listening to stuff that is so perfect. Makes for a lifeless performance and listening experience.

Plus who has the time for all of this?
Old 30th December 2010
  #68
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonT View Post
OMG this is freaking halarious!! Man Greg I love your zen bro!!!!

Come on guys, this is just crazy! OMG,...I have made some speakers that plays stuff that regular studio monitors don't play and that 99.2% of consumers won't hear as well so let me take the time to fix these errors that most people in the world will never hear and most people in the world wont even care or interpret it as a mistake!

What happen to the music in music? Why is everything so damn technical now-a-days? Some of the best music ever recorded is filled with errors on top of errors on top of errors! Music is about emotions and interpretations of those emotions. I hate listening to stuff that is so perfect. Makes for a lifeless performance and listening experience.

Plus who has the time for all of this?
Haha! common sense strikes again.

And yes if i have learned anything from this experience is that there are many errors in amazingly good music - and yet its still amazing. so heart and soul always wins out i suppose
Old 30th December 2010
  #69
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by editronmaximon View Post
Nice try.


But your problem, whether you are "aware" of it or not, is that you do make sweeping, pontificating statements, projecting your ego trip onto all, as if you were teaching children, but without any real substance or authority to back your pearls of wisdom up.

Then you try to walk your statements back, with "that's not what I meant".

Busted.

For example, you say, "The point of listening to a recording is to have an experience". Well, wait a minute, Baba Greg, that may be one point, or maybe it is actually the only point for you. But the statement is obviously not true generally for everyone, because there can be any number of "points" or reasons for listening to a recording. You could even listen to a recording for many reasons at once.

For another example, you say, "Truth has nothing to do with any of this, this is art....". That's absurd on its face, imo. Art and truth are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary.

Hard to tell, but I think you may be reading to many self-help books, and you may have started thinking that you have mastered reality.

How can you debate the statement 'the point of listening to a record is to have an experience?' Its so broad as to almost not make any sense. You can't listen to something without having 'an experience.' Its not wrong, just a truism. Art and truth refer to things that don't really connect - truth is an objective quality of something; unless you want to get really philosophically technical about relativism (which would be pretty tangential to the purpose of this thread). Art has no binary quality and can neither be true nor false. I feel that beyond its academic contribution to the cultural dialectic, 'good' art illuminates shared aspects of the human experience (which feels to us like 'truth'), which is probably what you're getting at, but that's clearly a subjective opinion.
Old 30th December 2010
  #70
Gear Addict
 
audioboffin's Avatar
 

I can see this becoming an existentialist rave.. but the truth is a matter of perspective... and beauty is in the eyes (and ears) of the beholder.

Perhaps if you hear a lot of flaws using just one particular pair of speakers, that pair may themselves be flawed? I know how confronting it can be to be told that all your favourite albums have flaws that are obvious only with a certain new pair of monitors, because then anything you have used as a mental reference becomes not enjoyable to listen to, so there becomes no joy in recording music...
Old 30th December 2010
  #71
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuietWilds View Post

How can you debate the statement 'the point of listening to a record is to have an experience?' Its so broad as to almost not make any sense.
As is the case with much of the "wisdom" of that poster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuietWilds

Art and truth refer to things that don't really connect
Here I would have to disagree. In my view art is an excellent vehicle / conduit for truth, and art can be an excellent "window" to truth. Art and truth are definitely not mutually exclusive, and great art seeks often seeks to reveal truth. For the poster to say that, "Truth has nothing to do with any of this, this is art......", is obtuse.

But what I am finding to be a little weird in this thread is how many of the posters seem to be talking about how many "mistakes" are on the recordings they are listening to. I guess my tracking is better than most or something, but I generally do not have to work with mistake-laden tracks, and there are not "mistakes" on or in my mixes, to any appreciable extent.

I thought we were supposed to play the stuff right, record it right, then mix it right.

I do agree that minor flaws do not ruin a performance or a recording where the spirit or overall vibe carries the day.

I do not see any need to use lousy speakers to hide minor flaws that have little or no bearing on the overall effectiveness of the recording. I am in favor of using good monitoring at all stages of the production, from tracking right through mastering. I think that naturally provides the best way to achieve good results.
Old 30th December 2010
  #72
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I haven't mastered reality, I don't even know what that means. But I *have* mastered the ignore list, welcome to mine.
Ignorance is only a venial sin, so I guess you'll be alright as long as it doesn't lead to worse things for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ubk
For whatever it's worth, I read your words, I read your tone of voice, and I believe you are guilty of every single motivation and behavior you ascribe to me, right down to the part about teaching me as if I were a child.
Well then let that be a lesson to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ubk
Many men before you have come at me with their agendas, taking my words as personal insults of some variety, and many will come long after you've faded. What all of you underestimate is the ease with which I decline your invitations to suffer.
Wow, that's something. Just how many men have come at you, and how weighty were the agendas they wielded? Did you smite them with your large compressor?

I'm not fading much, actually. I think its because I use cold water.

"We all" did not mean to underestimate your power to decline invitations. You may continue to decline as you wish.
Old 30th December 2010
  #73
Gear Maniac
 
heybub419's Avatar
Another popcorn thread

(WHERE is that smiley?!?)

heh
Old 30th December 2010
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioboffin View Post
I can see this becoming an existentialist rave.. but the truth is a matter of perspective... and beauty is in the eyes (and ears) of the beholder.
yes but what IS the meaning of is? lol
Old 30th December 2010
  #75
Lives for gear
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heybub419 View Post

Another popcorn thread

(WHERE is that smiley?!?)

heh
Here, take two (they're small):

.
Old 30th December 2010
  #76
Gear Maniac
 
heybub419's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Here, take two (they're small):

.
Haha there ya go!

Old 31st December 2010
  #77
Lives for gear
 
Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by editronmaximon View Post

I guess my tracking is better than most or something
You realize, that you're on the high end forum, right?
Old 31st December 2010
  #78
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep Dude View Post
You realize, that you're on the high end forum, right?
Yeah, slumming, I know.

Where are you?
Old 31st December 2010
  #79
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep Dude View Post
Another possibility is that there is something wrong with the speakers or their set up.

Things that will falsely lead you to believe your hearing detail and that productions don't sound as good as you remember include:

-phase issues in the room (not the drivers out of phase, but acoustical phase cancellations)

-speakers not angled inward enough to create solid center image

-poor bass response due to speaker interaction in the room, design, placement etc (this is a big one).

-Speakers too close to the listening position so their drivers don't have a chance to gel.


All of these, in my hard earned experience, can cause you to hear greater "detail" due to the fact that they are removing masking frequencies. For example an acoustic guitar string squeek that is acceptable with normally set up speakers will suddenly sound obnoxious if lower mids are attenuated due to phase cancellations. Attenuated mids and lower mids create a false sense of heightened detail -something I do intentionally with eq when mastering if a mix is muddy.

When I first set up my Dunlavy SC-V's I thought I was hearing incredible detail and flaws in records. But after too many "good" sounding records sounded horrible I realized it wasn't them, it was my setup. It took several days of tweaking and moving by inches until good records sounded good and then, yes, some records didn't sound as good as I had previously thought.

Warning: mixing with "mastering" quality speakers will cause you to under use effects like reverb, echo etc What sounds correct on those speakers is inaudible to the rest of the world. Put on Peter Gabriel "So" for instance and check out some sounds you always thought were so cool on the radio. They'll be so in your face you'd never instinctively mix them so out front -but that's how they sounded great!

I gave up trying to mix on the SC-V's after learning that I could nail a mix in half the time with almost no recall issues on the ADAM S3A's.
thumbsup
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies

Forum Jump
Forum Jump