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Rate these u47 clones on a scale of 1-10 Condenser Microphones
Old 24th December 2010
  #31
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville View Post
The fet 47s tend to have a certain shiny thing going on up top - that a lot of people like. It almost reminds me of a 251 more than what people think of as the quintessential 47 sound.
That's a rather original description of the tone.

In 30+ years of hearing people talk about that mic that is the very FIRST time I have ever heard anyone use those descriptive terms. The terms I've heard most over the years are "tubby" - "boxy" - "mid forward"... quite un-251 like... but if that was your impression that was your impression.

I find it rather interesting that you have this perspective. All due respect, I have to wonder if its first hand experience?... or the retelling of things you've heard others say about them?

Quote:
Fets traditionally use a K47 capsule - but there are many makes of K47s - not all are created equal.
Beg to differ - there is only one "make" of K-47, it is made by Neumann. There were several revisions - and there are a few people making "aftermarket" versions - but only one "K-47".

Quote:
Most are good, some are great. The original tube uses an M7 capsule which is comparable, but slightly different in build to the K47.
An M-7 isn't a "slightly" different build than a K-47... its a monumentally different beast -- from the diaphragm material to the way that material is mounted to the capsule, to the exterior dimensions.

The K-47 was not exclusive to the FET release of the U-47... after about 1958 they were installed in the tube model of the U-47 and a select version was installed in the U-48. The M-7 is still in current production and is available from Thiersch Elektroakustik [and from a few folks that do custom work].

Quote:
Jeez - I'm talking like Illacov right now. It's pretty fascinating stuff though.
It really is - and when you really learn about it I think you will find it even more fascinating still!!

Quote:
Between the slightly different capsule design, and the fact that one is amped by FET and the other by tube - you get runs of 47s that sound markedly different from each other.
There were at least 8 revisions of the U-47 over the years - there were also manufacturing tolerance constraints that cause differences in the tone / texture of these microphones - also care and feeding over the decades has varied, as well as after market "modifications" which many have seen over the years.

Your point is on - every unit should be evaluated by its own merits - your reasons are slightly askew.

Peace.
Old 24th December 2010
  #32
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DarkSky Media's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
As per Craig's comment, the list here includes a number of mics that are in no sense u47 clones. When you remove those from the list, you're left with:

Wunder CM7
Wagner U47w
Vertigo Sound VS47
Telefunken U47AE / M

...to which I believe you would need to add the following

Flea 47
Andreas Grosser U47

The resulting list would then contain six credible re-creations of the U47, several of which are available in a couple of variants (notably the Telefunken Elektroakustik and Flea offerings IIRC).

At that point, you're talking about a small group of microphones that all achieve a high standard, on a level with the heritage they are seeking to maintain. If there is in fact anyone here who has used each of the six side-by-side with each of the others and with a pristine vintage Neumann U47 (or preferably, several), then their opinion would interesting - but still more subjective than conclusive. Anything else is basically conjecture, prejudice, spin and misinformation.
In the interests of accuracy, it's been pointed out by a friend that the Vertigo Sound (as well as Vox-o-rama) branded mics are from Andreas Grosser, and therefore don't really require a separate mention. I believe I learned of this at one point, but I'm afraid it escaped my mind when I posted the above. So in fact there are presently - more properly - five contenders rather than six, for the "clone" assignation.

Another interesting aside to this is that some of these makers use some of the same parts as others, so not all of them can be viewed as entirely independent creations. That doesn't mean that each does not stand on its own as the sum of its parts (and more, holistically speaking) - but it does make some of the distinctions at this level a little more on the arbitrary side.
Old 24th December 2010
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
In the interests of accuracy, it's been pointed out by a friend that the Vertigo Sound (as well as Vox-o-rama) branded mics are from Andreas Grosser, and therefore don't really require a separate mention.

I think they do deserve a separate mention. Voxorama is strictly an Andreas Grosser mic built either like a early U47P / Big Badge revision (which nobody else on this earth does as of yet), Custom made Andreas Grossser German Haufe GN107 transformer originally designed for Neumann Repairs and only used by Andreas, brass body (voxorama only) , Vintage nos siemens/rft/boch caps, and has a different logo which is diamond in shape. Way cooler looking that the Vertigo Agent Orange Belt Buckle IMHO.

He also makes a lower costing U47, which is a like the later U47 Aluminum material Neumann lightweight version, BV08B revision custom German made Haufe Transformer designed in conjuction and only for Andreas G and Neumann U47 repairs. This transformer is designed based off the original blue prints of Neumann. The BV08 Aluminum uses modern film Rodenstein Vishay Film caps (sterile/neutral), same caps used or have been used by Wunder, TFK, Wagner, Vertigo. You can't buy new PIOs today. All are NOS. Anyone who is educated with U47s, knows it isn't a true part of the original design of the U47, but its not bad, just a tad different and for me..."boring".., it provides a clearer, straight ruler modern sound vs. the original NOS caps. Nos originals being more "woolier" or warmer, musical or rounder on the top end". PIO. Bosch aluminum/paper/tar. Very leaky and inconsistent.


Both have transformers (GN107 and BV08) have a new static shield which is missing on the originals. This shielding prevents the microphone from receiving HF, Radio or for example mobile telephone interferences! I heard the mobile cell phone interference. Its not good for audio. Once you hear it. You know what it is for the rest of your recording life.

JFYI, Andreas did not intend to copy the U47 100%,. He wanted to make it but slighty improved which out changing the (positives). There were many areas that the original suffered from his 30+ years of experience of repairing and dealing with the originals.. Less noise, less reliability issues with the tube, higher SPL capability for sources such as drums, longer life VF14 tube and less noise than a VF14 Original, and with better more reliable parts in certain areas of the design. Better improved Power Supply. The PSU is designed with a special view on noise poorness and tubes longlife, anode- and heatingvoltages are stabilised and rise up slowly. The transformer is equipped with primary and secondary fuses, the voltages are protected against stress peaks and interspersion. Andreas makes some of the best Power Supplies you can buy for microphones that incorporate his own power surge protection and are correctly dialed for the exact voltage for the mic on hand. Many think, you can just get any U47 PSU and use it and have the same results. FALSE. The PSU must be tweaked and tuned the mic. Better and specially selected custom made german U47 cable made by Leoni in Germany, which he told me is a significant improvement over the original cable. Better grade copper and oxidation free. Oxidation makes noise folks! Both come with German OEM P&P made shock mounts (not cheap) $600 euros each, same company Neumann uses for their mounts. . Not typical chinese copies. Nos Tuchel connectors.

Vertigo "WAS" built by Andreas for HEstudiotecnik before he did the Voxorama thing. Voxorama is his current mic logo/business. Andreas does all HE's repair work for vintage mics. So they had a relation I guess to do other business. But I feel confident that at the moment. He isn't doing any remakes but the Voxorama U47P or U47.. IMHO, better logo for the mic. That orange bar is just horrific and has no resemblance to the original badge from T funk and Neumann.

I don't believe he did that Vertigo VS47 for too long and yes it was his work/different badge/standard aluminum BV08 model not U47p version, including the PSU. I asked about it a while back, which wasn't that long ago. And I own one of his U47p mics made with the Vox diamond logo. I love it. And I like that I can use a glass VF14 (silky top end) to a VF14m in it.

Andreas does work with numerous companies in Germany/Europe. Funky Junk, HE, Neumann, Madooma, you name it. I have heard he assisted Flea as well in some technical matters of their 47.
Old 24th December 2010
  #34
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Levon's Avatar
 

My U47 search has ended when I visited Andreas Grosser and tried his U47 early last year. I compared it to a mint original he had there and could hear no difference. Although I desperately wanted a tube mic, I finally opted for the FET version. Sonically identical but without the noise. If I wanted to, I could easily swap the FET for a tube. Andreas' work is outstanding and he is one hell of a nice guy. I have #16, btw... Original Berlin M7 capsule reskinned by Siegfried Thiersch. Nice.
Old 24th December 2010
  #35
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BTW it looks Billy Corgan will buy Voxorama U47 to Pumpkinland studio.Bjorn Thorstrud producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins,Zwan etc...was recording in my studio and was such amazed by Voxorama that we straightaway called to Andreas office .The mic won shoot out against my other mics as U47 with VF14, M49, SM204/C12/, vintage modified U87s, Manley Gold etc. in this session for male lead vox.


shoot out - this is the lead vocalist of the band



my assistant puts manley to the test -- I traded manley just after session for REDD47 by Marquette audio labs- I realized I dont need manley gold anymore



winner in centre
Old 24th December 2010
  #36
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Siemens was big time back in the day. I was watching "John Rabe" last night and his operation of the Siemens factory in Nanking. Great movie with Steve Buscemi. Great little history lesson as well....... chalk full of Siemens equipment.

Anyway, seeing Carloff's Siemens C12 got me thinking about that flick.

I personally think there is a mic at every price range that will cater to those seeking the U47 attributes, but the more you spend the closer you get, and you can buy what you can afford.

I'm currently using a BeesNeez Arabella at the $2.5K range which I really enjoy...... Not necessarily like a U47, but as I just mentioned, a great mic that will give you the desired timbre for the buck.

I really would love to try a Grosser mic, the praise those mics receive here have me on the edge of my seat, but I'm not financially ready to go there yet.
Old 24th December 2010
  #37
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This Siemens SM204s have bigger transformers inside: HENRY, SIEMENS or ROEDE & SCHWARZ .Early C12 used big Henry Radio transformers as well- the same as in SM204.Later versions used T14/1.
I dont like so much normal C12 sound has not so much basses for me.
SM204 has again very full and rich sound also in bass spectrum.With these nice CK12 highs.Amazing mic...very rare and expensive...
Max Martin has it in studio as well BTW...
Old 25th December 2010
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
BTW it looks Billy Corgan will buy Voxorama U47 to Pumpkinland studio.Bjorn Thorstrud producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins,Zwan etc...was recording in my studio and was such amazed by Voxorama that we straightaway called to Andreas office .The mic won shoot out against my other mics as U47 with VF14, M49, SM204/C12/, vintage modified U87s, Manley Gold etc. in this session for male lead vox.


shoot out - this is the lead vocalist of the band



my assistant puts manley to the test -- I traded manley just after session for REDD47 by Marquette audio labs- I realized I dont need manley gold anymore



winner in centre
Interesting information. Thanks for this Carloff.
Old 25th December 2010
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
in last thread you said you tried also FET tube.
Really? You are wrong. I said that we have a replacement FET from Andreas Grosser but never tried it. It's just sitting there in case. That's what I said. Everythig else you want from me is pretty much childish respectively not relevant to me. What you believe or what not is also not important to me. I have work to do. I'm not an amateure who can spend thousands of posts at a forum like DONNX. (BTW I still don't read his, to me, meaningless on forums gathered opinions)


Quote:
Originally Posted by blim View Post
The OP just wanted some opinions. So, what's the big freakin' deal?
The deal is that the OP said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfield View Post
Rate these u47 clones
He said U47 clones... Most of his mentioned mics aren't clones.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
BTW it looks Billy Corgan will buy Voxorama U47 to Pumpkinland studio.Bjorn Thorstrud producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins,Zwan etc...was recording in my studio and was such amazed by Voxorama that we straightaway called to Andreas office .The mic won shoot out against my other mics as U47 with VF14, M49, SM204/C12/, vintage modified U87s, Manley Gold etc. in this session for male lead vox.

Don't get me wrong. Mr. Grosser's U47 is great but you guys are so opinionated about the Voxorama that one could think you guys are on his payroll. It's the Holy Grail and all that.
You guys think you became friends with him and worship his U47. Ridiculous! His U47 is one of the best clones but there are also some alternatives. I said I liked the Wagner best. I also said that you could have a different impression. That is objective and means you have to try them on your own!

I'm sorry carloff but you're obviously here to promote his mic like Pulsh promotes flea. It goes beyond being a fan of his product. IMO A real engineer would be happy with the great sounding Voxorama and would record. A real engineer wouldn't go on forums on a daily basis to defend the mic like a shark.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
BTW it looks Billy Corgan will buy Voxorama U47 to Pumpkinland studio.Bjorn Thorstrud producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins,Zwan etc...was recording in my studio and was such amazed by Voxorama that we straightaway called to Andreas office .The mic won shoot out against my other mics as U47 with VF14, M49, SM204/C12/, vintage modified U87s, Manley Gold etc. in this session for male lead vox.

You make it look like it is the best mic of those 3. It's OK if you say his voice matched best with the Voxorama U47. It could be totally different with the next singer. The best mic for the next singer could be a SM7 or whatever. That would be objective! But you promote the Grosser U47 as the best mic ever. carloff you are a Grosser U47 representative like DONNX! Not more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
Max Martin has it (Siemens SM204) in studio as well BTW...
Who cares? You should grow up and stand on your own feet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
This Siemens SM204s have bigger transformers inside: HENRY, SIEMENS or ROEDE & SCHWARZ .Early C12 used big Henry Radio transformers as well- the same as in SM204.Later versions used T14/1. I dont like so much normal C12 sound has not so much basses for me. SM204 has again very full and rich sound also in bass spectrum.With these nice CK12 highs.Amazing mic...very rare and expensive...
Max Martin has it in studio as well BTW...

Your information is only half right. First off, the Siemens SM204 never had a Siemens transformer.

The correct info is that the very early C12 had a big Hiller transformer (T14). The next generation had a Henry Radio transformer (V2148).
The third and last C12 generation had the tiny Haufe T14/1 transformer.


The AKG OEMed Siemens SM204 had a big Rohde and Schwarz transformer.
This one has stronger mids (not bass like you said) and the early CK-12 has less top end compared to the last C12's which makes it more mellow. Both are great but to say the Siemens is better is just not objective. It's different. It depends on the voice which one to prefer. Once more you are not objective.

The top end of the latest C12 model was a side effect when AKG made the mic louder and was not intended by AKG. That's also a problem of todays mic manufacturer. A lot we love about vintage mics happend and hasn't been designed.

You guys should learn that it's about the singers voice not about the mic.
The mic is just a tool not a religion or a forum status symbol!

Some of you should grow up!

If some of you guys take counsel with your pillow, you maybe come to the conclusion that I have some objective and right points.


Old 25th December 2010
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marque View Post
Really? You are wrong. I said that we have a replacement FET from Andreas Grosser but never tried it. It's just sitting there in case. That's what I said. Everythig else you want from me is pretty much childish respectively not relevant to me. What you believe or what not is also not important to me. I have work to do. I'm not an amateure who can spend thousands of posts at a forum like DONNX. (BTW I still don't read his, to me, meaningless on forums gathered opinions)

dear friend I think you easily lie.You have no Fet tube you have not tried Glass tube, you tried nothing other than might be friends Wagner. If you would have it there sitting in a case then wouldnt be nothing easier than put here serial numbers ...it takes 15 sec.. 10x less than your long post heh Also it is nothing easier than wrote who is owner of Grosser 47 what you "tried".
I unfortunatly must say all the circumstances incriminate :
YOU ARE LIAR
prove what you are saying or you will score off yourself here more than before.
I really doubt you are a professional even your Marquette analogue recording has no website.
it is really funny how you are calling all of us amateurs , although you have not website , you didnt show us your work, your studio doesnt exist in whole google world, you didnt show us any other experiences...
look to my website you can easily see my own..
This what you do is nothing than sad and childish ...the more that forums are more and more full of this kind of people

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
BTW it looks Billy Corgan will buy Voxorama U47 to Pumpkinland studio.Bjorn Thorstrud producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins,Zwan etc...was recording in my studio and was such amazed by Voxorama that we straightaway called to Andreas office .The mic won shoot out against my other mics as U47 with VF14, M49, SM204/C12/, vintage modified U87s, Manley Gold etc. in this session for male lead vox.

Don't get me wrong. Mr. Grosser's U47 is great but you guys are so opinionated about the Voxorama that one could think you guys are on his payroll. It's the Holy Grail and all that.
You guys think you became friends with him and worship his U47. Ridiculous! His U47 is one of the best clones but there are also some alternatives. I said I liked the Wagner best. I also said that you could have a different impression. That is objective and means you have to try them on your own!

I'm sorry carloff but you're obviously here to promote his mic like Pulsh promotes flea. It goes beyond being a fan of his product. IMO A real engineer would be happy with the great sounding Voxorama and would record. A real engineer wouldn't go on forums on a daily basis to defend the mic like a shark.
Did I say something about Wagner? I posted fact what happened in my studio.Nothing more , nothing less.I also wrote
Quote:
in this session for male lead vox.
. I dont understand what is your problem with it?Are you secret representative for other product and are you jealous of it?
You are still writing about some Holly Grail.Not me.I dont defend anything. The mic doesnt need it. heh

About SM204. Are you envious about my SM204?Or what? For me it is quite interesting Max Martin has it in studio.As I believe it is to other members of the forum..
We can make quite long dispute about SM204 transformers ..but easier would be to prove it by photoshoots...can you ? I can Also I can post samples C12 to SM204..you can hear differences..in basses
lets make it in another thread if you are interested in and have a proofs...
not here - here is U47 clone thread_

on the other side I more and more guess --as you know so closely names of C12 trannies which is not common in public, you have perfect native English -living in France-
you are not even LAIR but also FAKE NET PERSONALITY ...
Old 25th December 2010
  #41
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idylldon's Avatar
 

To paraphrase Freud, "Sometimes a microphone is just a microphone."

It seems in threads like this one, they become something much, much more.

Cheers,
--
Don
Old 25th December 2010
  #42
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
.....
Peace.
Hey Fletch, Merry Xmas!!

As I mentioned in the other threads, I don't even think a person can truly build a clone of the U47 anymore.

I've taken the Scrooge methodology on this one.

I think the timbre, tone and action of a legendary mic like this one is something that can't be replicated at this point in the mic's history. This is not a dig on anyone attempting to do so but the issue lies in the fact that we can't be faithful to the original fabrication of the microphone. The VF14 grows smaller and smaller in numbers, the capacitors become rarer, the laminations for the transformer don't exist anymore...No matter how close you get, its not quite the same as the real thing. I would love to be completely wrong about this but so far.....

I will go on record and make this statement:

If you don't own a real U47, have never heard one or don't know why you want one then take a step back and revisit the situation.

If you use an Thiersch M7 or a Neumann K47 with a good functioning tube (I don't care to nitpick too much, but..) one that works well with the BV8 style tranny and a good BV8 style transformer from the best winder you can afford, you have the parts in your hands to construct a great sounding microphone.

Whoever builds it for you is going to determine a great deal how you arrive at that result. The combination of various capacitor types, resistor types, PSU construction etc etc is going to steer the final result in one direction or another.

Once the result is satisfactory and the mic sounds awesome, forget about U47s and the attack of the clones and just go make music!

I would much rather focus on the fact that we have a wide abundance of knowledge, resources and talent available (in our lifetimes and immediate vicinities) to create a new legacy of microphones and timbres.

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th December 2010
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
Hey Fletch, Merry Xmas!!

As I mentioned in the other threads, I don't even think a person can truly build a clone of the U47 anymore.

I've taken the Scrooge methodology on this one.

I think the timbre, tone and action of a legendary mic like this one is something that can't be replicated at this point in the mic's history. This is not a dig on anyone attempting to do so but the issue lies in the fact that we can't be faithful to the original fabrication of the microphone. The VF14 grows smaller and smaller in numbers, the capacitors become rarer, the laminations for the transformer don't exist anymore...No matter how close you get, its not quite the same as the real thing. I would love to be completely wrong about this but so far.....

I will go on record and make this statement:

If you don't own a real U47, have never heard one or don't know why you want one then take a step back and revisit the situation.

If you use an Thiersch M7 or a Neumann K47 with a good functioning tube (I don't care to nitpick too much, but..) one that works well with the BV8 style tranny and a good BV8 style transformer from the best winder you can afford, you have the parts in your hands to construct a great sounding microphone.

Whoever builds it for you is going to determine a great deal how you arrive at that result. The combination of various capacitor types, resistor types, PSU construction etc etc is going to steer the final result in one direction or another.

Once the result is satisfactory and the mic sounds awesome, forget about U47s and the attack of the clones and just go make music!

I would much rather focus on the fact that we have a wide abundance of knowledge, resources and talent available (in our lifetimes and immediate vicinities) to create a new legacy of microphones and timbres.

Peace
Illumination

Hello llacov,

I'm sorry.... But how do you know what you think is 100% correct? And which U47 are you speaking of? The early U47p/U47, GN107 and M7 Berlin PVC aka "Big Badge"? Or the later U47 BV-08b with the K47 capsule? There is a lot more to mention about the details/differences about each revision. And from an expert who has repaired them for Neumann for over 30 years. According to his experience, there were 8 revisions of the U47. Not all were alike. So which one is it that you think cannot be remade today 100%(of course it will have some sourced original parts).

The capacitors are available from the right source in Germany. I can contest this as a true fact. Because I was given 8 pairs of Bosch Capacitors. .5 uf and 1uf. I even gave GS member, Roundbadge a pair for his AG U47 #15. Which were both used in the U47s. The Pios are available as well if you locate them in Germany and you know the right people. I got a pair in my AG 47 #11.

The wire/lamination. Now I can say this is probably the most difficult. Because you can find a VF-14m. Or VF 14. I just did. Never before used VF-14m. One of the first batches.

You just have to look, know the right people, be patient and have the cash to buy one. Even a used tube can be sourced quite easily with the will to find.

But for the transformer materials. IMHO this could be the hardest? There is one man in Europe who has stock of the original materials, that I know of. I was offered this as a transformer option. But I trusted the fact that the (German Transformer Company) Haufe custom made replacement transformer were good enough if Neumann uses them on U47 repairs. Are the Haufe exact 100% in every detail. I cannot be 100% sure because I don't build transformers and dissect transformers for a living like some I know. But I was assured that it met all required specifications for sound and build for Neumann and backed by their blue printed design. And I can say is this, not one soul has said a bad thing about it. And many of these souls own a few vintage U47s.

JFYI, the K47 is still being built today and/or can be repaired to original specs by Neumann. IMHO, Neumann makes the most precise capsule in the market. Its like surgery in a clean hospital. Nothing like it. As for the original PVC M7 Berlin. I would agree. To have an exact replica 100%, doesn't exist anymore. Due to the material being a specific PVC material (no longer made to the same spec, ages, cracks, and shrinks with time). There is not one M7 PVC in Neumann's time capsule closet that is up to 100% working specs like it was 5 decades ago.


I know this, because a friend tried to locate me one in Berlin for a shootout test. But the Theirsch is a wonderful capsule because the man who makes it, has been doing it for a few major German companies for a long time now. He has a NOS stock of old Mylar and PVC that nobody has. If I recall, somewhere on another forum, a well known mic expert had mentioned that Theirsch PVC isn't 100% identical (in thickness) to the original Berlin PVC. This is true. Its slightly thinner. But I was told thinner is better bass and treble. To me it sounds good and has a bit of mojo compared to the Neumann K47. Its built good. And lastly, I have never heard any major complaints to date.

One mic expert said he believe there is no better substitute than an original PVC Berlin M7. But to this day, I am trying to figure out how would anyone on this earth could get a freshly made PVC M7 berlin Capsule and do a critical A/B studio test against a modern Blue line Theirsch? This to me is IMPOSSIBLE. I believe the only way you would absolutely know this for sure. Is to H.G. Welles back to 1948 in a time machine and bring it to this date.


To do a proper GS shootout. Would it be worth it? I wouldn't waste my time and effort on it. I say forget it. Its history and how do you know that your Theirsch isn't a better sounding or as good of an M7? After a critical A/B test. I personally, didn't like the PVC Theirsch as much as the Mylar Redline Theirsch M7, nor do some other good gold eared friends I know. And I am not saying its worse or bad. Its a great capsule. But I made a decision of the two. You want more low end? You want less high end. Do the PVC. Along with constant change. Obama away.

You want less low end than the PVC and the right amount from the capsule? A tad bit better high shelf? Go redline Mylar. I believe JJblair has said, his old PVC M7s had shrank, but gain "more hi end" and "less bass". And Carloff, said what he experienced was the opposite. Aging is unique. Bass drops, the treble drops, in turn you get MIDRANGE. Maybe thats what all these U47s like. How it cuts through them mix with no eq. For me and I assume Neumann Berlin, Mylar was a better option, I like the stability . I like to know my mic well and learn it.

Some say Neumann moved to Mylar after PVC due to knowing that it shrank, cracked, changed in sound in time, aged, and the specs fell all out of whack over a period of time. Actually Neumann went to Mylar due to the business aspect of it. There were many wasted hours on the PVC M7 in order for each to be approved for sale. The Mylar, screwed ring collar capsule is more progressive to make and fix vs the M7 which is glued. I think from hearing the two materials today on a M7 backplate. That the Mylar is not only more dependable, better for Neumann's business aspects. But sounds more useable on more sources to me. And look it Neumann's history. They never went back to PVC. They jumped on Mylar and decades later its still being used. Reliability reasons? Sound reasons? Cost reasons? Build reasons, Money saved reasons? Technology reasons? I am guessing all of these factored in the decision to stick with Mylar. But who really knows? Martin at Neumann does.


In conclusion. From all the studying, research, listening to those I know who know, honestly, I would not be 100% satisfied with an all original U47 part for part.. There were 8 revisions for many reasons. Some for improvements in the design, meeting the client needs. And with the knowledge of what can make it improved. I would modify the "old not so good aspects of the original, with newer, modern/ more reliable parts/materials here and there to improve the noise level, reliability, and stability of the mic. Not change the beloved sound so much. Because I am not a collector, but a user. Sound is my top priority, all other matters fall where they fall in music creation order.

Kind regards.
Donnx
Old 26th December 2010
  #44
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Storyville's Avatar
Hi Fletcher! Thanks for clearing up my post, it's relatively embarrassing for me but I'll admit there's a lot to this I don't have thorough information (more like just enough to be dangerous). I'll specify below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
That's a rather original description of the tone.

In 30+ years of hearing people talk about that mic that is the very FIRST time I have ever heard anyone use those descriptive terms. The terms I've heard most over the years are "tubby" - "boxy" - "mid forward"... quite un-251 like... but if that was your impression that was your impression.

I find it rather interesting that you have this perspective. All due respect, I have to wonder if its first hand experience?... or the retelling of things you've heard others say about them?

No disrespect taken. I cut an album recently using what I was told was a Lawson 47. It was gold colored. Apparently - that is actually a Lawson 251. Which explains that one!

I've also cut with the ifet7 - which I found to have a glossy tone up top - but that tone could have come from other things in the chain.

The Manley reference I've used tons of times - which was listed in this thread - but I didn't think it was supposed to emulate a 47 in any way.

Lastly, I've heard clips of the Peluso, but apparently Peluso makes a "251" as well - so I'm wondering if perhaps I was listening to that and somehow determined it was a 47 clone in my mind.

I have used an actual Telefunken U47 tube on a number of projects - great tone - sounded very little like any of the other mics I've used that I was under the impression were "47s" or "47ish."


Beg to differ - there is only one "make" of K-47, it is made by Neumann. There were several revisions - and there are a few people making "aftermarket" versions - but only one "K-47".

Then I was simply misinformed. I was under the impression that there were several runs of K47s.

An M-7 isn't a "slightly" different build than a K-47... its a monumentally different beast -- from the diaphragm material to the way that material is mounted to the capsule, to the exterior dimensions.

Well, there you go then.

The K-47 was not exclusive to the FET release of the U-47... after about 1958 they were installed in the tube model of the U-47 and a select version was installed in the U-48. The M-7 is still in current production and is available from Thiersch Elektroakustik [and from a few folks that do custom work].

I did not know that!

It really is - and when you really learn about it I think you will find it even more fascinating still!!

It's a very new world to me - but very interesting indeed.

There were at least 8 revisions of the U-47 over the years - there were also manufacturing tolerance constraints that cause differences in the tone / texture of these microphones - also care and feeding over the decades has varied, as well as after market "modifications" which many have seen over the years.

Your point is on - every unit should be evaluated by its own merits - your reasons are slightly askew.

Well, glad that the point I was trying to make stuck.

Peace.
Apologies for contributing to misinformation - not normally my style - and thanks for catching it.
Old 26th December 2010
  #45
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Hello llacov,

I'm sorry.... But how do you know what you think is 100% correct? And which U47 are you speaking of? The early U47p/U47, GN107 and M7 Berlin PVC aka "Big Badge"? Or the later U47 BV-08 with the K47 capsule? There is a lot more to mention about the details/differences about each revision. And from an expert who has repaired them for Neumann for over 30 years. According to his experience, there were 8 revisions of the U47. Not all were alike. So which one is it that you think cannot be remade today 100%(of course it will have some sourced original parts).

The capacitors are available from the right source in Germany. I can contest this as a true fact. Because I was given 8 pairs of Bosch Capacitors. .5 uf and 1uf. I even gave GS member, Roundbadge a pair for his AG U47 #15. Which were both used in the U47s. The Pios are available as well if you locate them in Germany and you know the right people. I got a pair in my AG 47 #11.

The wire lamination. Now I can say this is probably the most difficult. Because you can find a VF-14m. Or VF 14. I just did. Never before used VF-14m. One of the first batches.

You just have to look, know the right people, be patient and have the cash to buy one. Even a used tube can be sourced quite easily with the will to find.

But for the lamination. This is truly the hardest IMHO. There is one man in Europe who has stock of the original lamination that I know of. I was offered this stock. But I trusted the fact that the (German Transformer Company) Haufe custom made replacement transformer were good enough if Neumann uses them on U47 repairs. Are the Haufe exact 100% in every detail. I cannot be 100% sure because I don't build transformers and dissect transformers for a living like some I know. But I was assured that it met all required specifications for sound and build for Neumann. And I can say this, not one soul has said a bad thing about it. And many of these souls own a few vintage U47s.

JFYI, the K47 is still being built today and/or can be repaired to original specs by Neumann. As for the original PVC M7 Berlin. I would agree. To have an exact replica 100%, doesn't exist anymore. Due to the material being PVC (no longer made to the same spec, ages, cracks, and shrinks with time). There is not one M7 PVC in Neumann's time capsule closet that is up to spec like it was 5 decades ago. I know this, because a friend tried to locate me one in Berlin for a shootout test. But the Theirsch is a wonderful capsule because the man who makes it, has been doing it for a few major German companies for a long time now, but the material isn't 100% the same to the PVC used in 1948 and forward.

Who knows, it could be an improvement over the original design for all we know. One expert said he believe there is no better substitute than an original PVC M7. But to this day, I am trying to figure out how would anyone on this earth get a freshly made PVC M7 berlin Capsule and do a critical A/B studio test against a modern Blue line Theirsch? I believe the only way you would absolutely know this for sure. Is to H.G. Welles back to 1948 in a time machine. Get a new M7 berlin bring it back to 2010 to do a critical A/B test. Test them, post the files here on GS and we would all be able to hear what is mostly preferred by the majority of engineers. Would it be worth it? I wouldn't waste my time and effort on it. I say forget it. Its history and how do you know that your Theirsch isn't a better sounding or as good M7? After a critical A/B test. I personally, didn't like the PVC Theirsch as much as the Mylar Redline Theirsch M7, nor do some other good ear friends I know. And I am not saying its worse or bad. Its a great capsule. But I made a decision of the two. You want more low end? You want less high end. Do the PVC. You want less low end than the PVC? A tad bit better high shelf? Go redline Mylar.

Some say Neumann moved to Mylar after PVC due to knowing that it cracked, age, and the specs fell all out of whack over a period of time. I think from hearing the two materials today on a M7 backplate. That the Mylar is not only more dependable. But sounds more useable on more sources to me. And look it Neumann's history. They never went back to PVC. They jumped on Mylar and decades later its still being used. Reliability reasons? Sound reasons? Cost reasons? Technology reasons? I am guessing all of these factored in the decision to stick with Mylar. But who really knows. I wish they could share that thought when Neumann made the move to mylar.


In conclusion. From all the studying, research, listening to those I know who know, I would not be 100% satisfied with an all original U47 part for part very early revision U47 or the last revison. There were 8 revisions for many reasons. Some for improving it. And with the knowledge of what can make it improved. I would modify the "old not so good parts"/ original with newer modern/ more reliable parts/materials here and there, because I am not a collector, but a user. Sound is my top priority, all other matters fall where they fall in music creation order.

Kind regards.
Donnx
So while I am enjoying this delicious Jamaican Sorrel that is laced heavily with 120 proof rum, you have stated a great deal of facts and trivia that in the end serve to further my standpoint.

I am more concerned with making a great sounding microphone with the parts that exist TODAY than to lament over the amount of unobtanium in one component to the next.

Considering that you have your perspectives based on a healthy dose of empirical data and borderline obsession, I'd say we're in agreement.

IF you are not sitting with a 100% replication of the item you are cloning then you don't have a clone.

BTW I think the mic that Grosser built for you is nothing short of amazing!!

I'd sure like to think somebody who owns one of those mics is not losing sleep over transformer laminationshehhehheh

Personally I like both the Blue and Red line capsules from Thiersch. How I use them is going to differ from the next man, but that's the way it goes with everything. I also really like the Neumann K47 capsule.

One thing I will add to this discussion which is my own little bit of youthful snarkiness:

I've noted that in your tests the differences in the tubes and FETs was something that I wouldn't lose sleep over. Like basically, I feel if you had that mic on 4 different vocals in 4 different configurations (tube types VS FET) people wouldn't pick out which was which with a high success rate.

Where I heard the differences most times was changing the capsules and transformers were a close second to the capsules IMHO.


I'm thinking its really the capsules and transformers in alot of the builds out there that really are the keystone to the mic.

I'm sure other people would disagree. But my reasoning is this:

Would you rather see a Chinese K47 and a Chinese BV8 with a real NOS VF14 and a $100 PIO coupling cap??

Or a Thiersch M7 and a Tab Funkenwerk BV8 with a NOS EF86 and a $45 dollar PIO coupling cap ?

Hmmmmmm......

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th December 2010
  #46
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darque View Post
Really? You are wrong. I said that we have a replacement FET from Andreas Grosser but never tried it. It's just sitting there in case. That's what I said. Everythig else you want from me is pretty much childish respectively not relevant to me. What you believe or what not is also not important to me. I have work to do. I'm not an amateure who can spend thousands of posts at a forum like DONNX. (BTW I still don't read his, to me, meaningless on forums gathered opinions)
Thanks for this post Marque, I mean Darque. I see you changed your name again. heh You know there is only a handful of guys on the internet and in the USA. That know of this mic and the transformers, let alone the history of the SM204. Or even seen or heard one.

You know why I have more post than you Marque! Because I have only one account user name here. Duh. DONNX. Thats it. Now, if I was you. A guy who creates a second account just to bash Andreas Grosser's reputation and work because he is bitter and jealous due to his own failures. I may seem like I am such a busy "real engineer" too. On a serious note, Let me tell you, Andreas has no problems at all, if you own his gear, honestly had used it, and you comment something that is in your opinion , not to your satisfaction. But Andreas, myself, his other fans, friends and clients, surely would not appreciate false comments from a person who doesn't even own/used anything made by him, let alone heard it in his/her own studio. Is that too much to ask for?

You my friend are being called out, thread after thread. And you slither through the cracks post by post. Avoiding the question of proof. And all you proved so far, for me at the least, is that you don't own what you claim, in disguise, bittered, jealous, not from France, has no studio by the name of Marquette Analogue Recording tutt

I am sure everyone reading this thread believes you. That its not important to know if your Andreas Grosser VF14-EF even WORKS? Its not important to know that it sounds like the real VF14m, because you are a "real" engineer Marque. You have no time for that. Work! Work! Work!

"At Marquette Analgue Recording, There is no time to check gear we purchase. Andreas Fet tube. nobody touches it! Unit the Royal VF14 dies on us! Nor is their any time to which a serial # of this claimed AG FET tube can be or will be provided on GS. No time, but to do one very important thing in our "real" engineer life here in France. Participate, Lecture, and don't forget to Harass every U47 Clone thread!" You my friend are no amateur. You! Are a PRO! The Real Deal! I applaude you. thumbsup


Quote:
Originally Posted by darque View Post
Don't get me wrong. Mr. Grosser's U47 is great but you guys are so opinionated about the Voxorama that one could think you guys are on his payroll. It's the Holy Grail and all that.
You guys think you became friends with him and worship his U47. Ridiculous! His U47 is one of the best clones but there are also some alternatives. I said I liked the Wagner best. I also said that you could have a different impression. That is objective and means you have to try them on your own!

I'm sorry carloff but you're obviously here to promote his mic like Pulsh promotes flea. It goes beyond being a fan of his product. IMO A real engineer would be happy with the great sounding Voxorama and would record. A real engineer wouldn't go on forums on a daily basis to defend the mic like a shark.
I am sorry I do get you WRONG. #1 you don't have a Grosser U47 let alone a tube. So how could you possibly know?

A real engineer? heh. So why do have time to post BS here? You better get back to your "real engineer" job! I sure wouldn't want you to miss out on the next Grammy nomination or overtime.

Just curious... Marque what part of the earth did you sprout from? Are you like Dorothy from Kansas? As a child, you want me to retort as a child. I will not. My contributions here on GS speak for themselves.

So I guess based on your post above, its safe to say all users of GS here like me the "amateur"..., Zodiaque, Roundbadge, Carloff , Mig27, Red 7, WunderBro Flo, jvancorduroy (Fet tube), Blind, are all on his payroll, and a dozen others across Europe and other major continents are on his payroll too? How about Bjorn Thorstrud, the producer and engineer of Smashing Pumpkins? He must be getting a huge CHECK from Carloff and Andreas! I agree, it had to be the payroll! Not that Andreas makes one of the finest U47 microphones today. Its just not possible that a German from Berlin who's repaired them over 30 years can do that!

All jokes aside, its simple Marque, he does make a damm good U47 There is no doubt in my mind, its one of the best that can be bought today. And everyone seems to be extremely satisfied. So satisfied that you would think, they have to be on Andreas's payroll!

I like to share a few wise man's words. JEALOUSY IS TRULY A WASTE OF AN EMOTION. Based off what you wrote in the past, and thank you for that TAB bit of info and posts. We all have an idea who Marque really is.
Old 26th December 2010
  #47
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darque View Post



You make it look like it is the best mic of those 3. It's OK if you say his voice matched best with the Voxorama U47. It could be totally different with the next singer. The best mic for the next singer could be a SM7 or whatever. That would be objective! But you promote the Grosser U47 as the best mic ever. carloff you are a Grosser U47 representative like DONNX! Not more.




Who cares? You should grow up and stand on your own feet.





Your information is only half right. First off, the Siemens SM204 never had a Siemens transformer.

The correct info is that the very early C12 had a big Hiller transformer (T14). The next generation had a Henry Radio transformer (V2148).
The third and last C12 generation had the tiny Haufe T14/1 transformer.



The AKG OEMed Siemens SM204 had a big Rohde and Schwarz transformer.
This one has stronger mids (not bass like you said) and the early CK-12 has less top end compared to the last C12's which makes it more mellow.
Both are great but to say the Siemens is better is just not objective. It's different. It depends on the voice which one to prefer. Once more you are not objective.

The top end of the latest C12 model was a side effect when AKG made the mic louder and was not intended by AKG. That's also a problem of todays mic manufacturer.

I guess since Carloff owns one, he doesn't know what the hell he's saying Marque? Andreas Grosser doesn't either. He repaired quite a few. If you heard or possess a SM204, are you sure it was up to 100% working specs? Your information of the sound doesn't match three trusted sources I have on this microphone. Actual owners, or users or tech who works on them Europe and USA. I thought we already ruled out that you can't hear that well Darque? So how do you know? You remember in the other thread. You said a Wagner sounds identical to a U47, and you failed to tell us which U47 revision you used to gain a perfect match.




Quote:
Originally Posted by darque View Post

You guys should learn that it's about the singers voice not about the mic.
The mic is just a tool not a religion or a forum status symbol!

Some of you should grow up!

If some of you guys take counsel with your pillow, you maybe come to the conclusion that I have some objective and right points.



Yea okay. This isn't opera, American IDOL, or A&R forum. This is about recording and being a GEAR SLUT. THAT MEANS, we are addicts of good, professional, famous, vintage recording gear! HELLO???? I think you are working too hard as a "real engineer" Darque.

Even "real engineers" need breaks too. So according to your lecture and ultimate wisdom to us all, including me, "the amateur". I do appreciate knowledge from a "real engineer".

I guess we can all throw our Vintage Neumanns, AKGs, Philips, RCAs, Siemens, Telefunkens, Lomos, and top botique clones in the dumpster right? Its all about the singer's voice not the mic in recording? How in the hell did Bob Dylan pull it off? heh

Okay, you keep using that $50 Radio Shack Dynamic Microphone with the switchable on/off hand held switch, and we will stick to our slutty mics and keep worshiping them. Is it a deal?
Old 26th December 2010
  #48
Shy
Lives for gear
 

There's no need to even bother. He will never post a serial number because he doesn't have the mic. I find it scary that someone would lie on and on about a topic like this, and especially if it's not for "business" reasons I wouldn't want to meet him in person.
Old 26th December 2010
  #49
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carloff's Avatar
The must funny is-- he just now changed name from Marque to Darque, and erased his living place which was Paris dfegad
Old 26th December 2010
  #50
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Donnx and Carlof, i don't want want to tell you what to do, but obviously
Marquette ( Darque) is a trol, you feed him with great info about the U47, and i'm sure he will use it in the future to look as he know what's he's talking about, i'm not sure it's a good idea to feed him with such information.......
Old 26th December 2010
  #51
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carloff's Avatar
you are right, dude...he doesnt worth a word....
Old 26th December 2010
  #52
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Troll=Ignore=
Old 26th December 2010
  #53
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studio1117's Avatar
 

On a more happy note :-) Where can I get a VF14EF or whatever it's called. I went to the Andreas Grosser Fans Web site and it's nothing "retail" at all. Actually not much useful at all? Am I missing something here? Is there another site?
Thanks
Old 26th December 2010
  #54
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron H View Post
On a more happy note :-) Where can I get a VF14EF or whatever it's called. I went to the Andreas Grosser Fans Web site and it's nothing "retail" at all. Actually not much useful at all? Am I missing something here? Is there another site?
Thanks
afaik I think you have to actually have him personally repair your mic to get one.
Old 26th December 2010
  #55
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron H View Post
On a more happy note :-) Where can I get a VF14EF or whatever it's called. I went to the Andreas Grosser Fans Web site and it's nothing "retail" at all. Actually not much useful at all? Am I missing something here? Is there another site?
Thanks


Hi Aaron, Its called exactly what you said. VF14-EF. (F for FET) And I can help you with your question. At this time, Andreas only furnishes a VF-14 EF (FET) for original U47 repairs and/or you purchase a U47 that he builds from scratch.

Later there may be a change to this policy. How much later, I don't know. Andreas is working on a new internal design and control system (same sound/key parts) that will allow him to freely sell the tubes to anyone in the world. So far there are approximately 50 + or - users of the his FET replacement tube, majority of the users reside in Europe... I didn't get the number on the Glass. But he did honestly say, his FET tube is the most popular choice.

I actually like all of his tubes. For me. I have sources that fit each one. You welcome to purchase his European Glass Tube Version VF14 ER (R for Rohre (German for tube) replacement. Its a fine tube as well. And will preserve your original if you have one and want to use it sparingly. I like having and using all three Fet, Original and Glass.

Old 26th December 2010
  #56
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^ just curious, are you a singer or engineer or ? you definitely know tons about this mic and wondering how you use all your U47's.
Old 27th December 2010
  #57
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
I may be wrong about a couple, but I believe none of these are "U-47" clones... they're microphones that may have a "4" or a "7" and maybe a "U" or an "M" in the name of the mic somewhere - but that's about as close as they get.

I can [and will not] speak to the quality of any specific item [from my use, and I've used damn near ever tool on your original list -- as well as more "vintage" U-47's and U-48's than I could hope to even begin to count] - the fact of the matter is that damn near every one I have used from this list is a damn fine tool.

This is a great little GS waste of time / popularity contest / marketing referendum -- but at the end of the day you will get zero information of substance in any manner, shape, or form.

Peace.
Ha Fletcher I love your brutal honesty.. we should have a beer next time your in the hood!

Wiggy
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