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if the u47 is the holy grail of mics why are neumann not making the same mic? Condenser Microphones
Old 20th December 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

if the u47 is the holy grail of mics why are neumann not making the same mic?

i pressume it would be easy for nuemann to remake a u47 to there original spec why are they not?

any reasons?

as all the big studio's and rental companies are hording the u47's?

can any one share some light on the subject?

as nuemans current range of mic's are never talked of so highly, and to tell you the truth i really hate all the tlm models, with there brittle 5-6k area, especially the tlm 49 yuk
Old 20th December 2010
  #2
Peluso makes U47 reproductions that are (according to many) indistinguishable from the originals... all varieties,
Peluso Microphone Lab U47 Tube clone
They also make an FET, not listed on their website as well as kits.

John Peluso is one of the world's most highly regarded "restoration artists" in the world of vintage microphones as well. Spoke with him today, you can't find a nicer guy.

As for the U47 being the holy grail? Hmmm...

I think that title goes to the C12 or possibly ELAM 251
Old 20th December 2010
  #3
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A lot of the U47's fame these days comes from places like this. The internet has attributed a lot to the holy-grailness of the U47 and manufacturers know this very well. That's why you see a lot of so-called "U47-clones". The Peluso is a great example. It's true that the 2247 SE/LE is based on a U47, but there are a lot of technical differences. It's not a clone, by far. And a lot of the charm of the U47's comes from years and years of extensive use, it's hard to find that in a new microphone. Don't get me wrong, the Peluso's are great, I have a few I use all the time, but they're no U47 (clones).

I guess it's a matter of time before we see a TLM47
Old 20th December 2010
  #4
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SP2016's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcimple View Post
i pressume it would be easy for nuemann to remake a u47 to there original spec why are they not?
The one and only name of the company is NEUMANN....
(the founder Georg Neumann - October 13, 1898.)
Old 20th December 2010
  #5
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcimple View Post
i pressume it would be easy for nuemann to remake a u47 to there original spec why are they not?
Because its not that easy... and more importantly - its not that profitable.
Old 20th December 2010
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Because its not that easy... and more importantly - its not that profitable.
Considering the amount a used u47 goes for if you do manage to find one privatly before a big studio or rental company adds it to the store room,

why would'nt they remake make the u47 and sell for an amount that they can nake a profit , it will then drive the prices down of the vintage units, unless some acclaimed gearslutz poster's say they dont sound alike blah blah blah.

i dont understand the difficulty of it, they have better facilities in this day and age yet there mic range is far from spectacular and people keep talking about u47s, there current range never gets a honourable mention in any convo.

thumbsup
Old 21st December 2010
  #7
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brad347's Avatar
 

It's not a U47 or a U47 "clone" proper without the VF14 tube.

The VF14 tube was manufactured by Telefunken, and was discontinued in the late 1950s, which was why the U47 was discontinued in the first place. The tube hasn't been available since. There's only one other known commercial device that used this tube, so they were never produced in great quantity.

They're rare as hen's teeth and ridiculously expensive per-piece now. They're absolutely not available NOS in quantity enough for even a modest/limited production run.

Per-piece price on these tubes is sometimes north of $1000-- sometimes even pretty far north.

Now if someone could tool up to make a high quality VF14 again, then you might see some movement. But until then, I wouldn't bet the house on it, and honestly I think it's the right move.

Most of the clones are made with a substitute tube. Many sound very good.
But it would be bullsh*t, in my opinion, to call a mic a Neumann U47 if it didn't have a VF14 tube. Of course, Sennheiser DID f*ck with the 87 and made the "U87 Ai" in order to cheap out on manufacturing costs, so I wouldn't necessarily put it altogether past them.
Old 21st December 2010
  #8
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T_R_S's Avatar
The whole basement studio thing as made gear more expensive IMO. Certain pieces even more so even though there are lots of other mics that sound great too. U47's have always been expensive since Allen Sides started scooping them up years ago. I remember back in the 80's 1073 modules sold for 1.2-1.5K. I thought that was insane. Maybe 20 years from now people will be selling them for 25K each
Old 21st December 2010
  #9
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brad347's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
The whole basement studio thing as made gear more expensive IMO. Certain pieces even more so even though there are lots of other mics that sound great too. U47's have always been expensive since Allen Sides started scooping them up years ago. I remember back in the 80's 1073 modules sold for 1.2-1.5K. I thought that was insane. Maybe 20 years from now people will be selling them for 25K each
Yep. If you can manage to merge basic materialism with a search for relevance/meaning/adoration/love (art), then you have a recipe for prices that go beyond the rational to nearly unprecedented degrees.

Throw in a dash of "historical significance," and "extremely limited supply," and you have something for everyone.

This is part of why '58-'60 Sunburst Les Pauls are $350k.

The other part is that they're amazing instruments, and U47s are amazing microphones. But they're far from the only game in town.
Old 21st December 2010
  #10
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

they "sort of" are..the U87Ai.
Old 21st December 2010
  #11
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ddageek's Avatar
 

if the u47 is the holy grail of mics why are neumann not making the same mic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher

Because its not that easy... and more importantly - its not that profitable.
What Fletcher said! I'll add Neumann / Sennhiser is not into botique small run hand asembly. Plus the engineers see it as they have moved beyond the old designs, in many ways they have, but many of us still yearn for the classics.
Thus the Marketing guys at about 90% of the mic manufactures put 47, 12, 251 on there mics ( in many cases the engineers wince at this but it pays the bills)
Some do try to some extent recreate the classic and a handfull come pretty close and do charge that fortune!
Old 21st December 2010
  #12
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Matti's Avatar
I remember hearing some of the best mic designers @ Neumann lost their jobs when Sennheiser took over?

Matti
Old 21st December 2010
  #13
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matti View Post
I remember hearing some of the best mic designers @ Neumann lost their jobs when Sennheiser took over?

Matti
Not true....... it's internet bull.........
Old 21st December 2010
  #14
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vernier's Avatar
Btw, U47 isn't "the" holy grail. It's one of several.
.
.
Old 21st December 2010
  #15
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jindrich's Avatar
 

For the same reason Telefunken told Neumann they were halting producing VF14s back then, many decades ago: NO PROFIT to be made.

It's also the same reason why there's no more SSL 4K/9K, Focusrite Focus, 9098s, Neve 80xx's or anything from Sony anymore.

Simple as that.

BTW, U47s are not the Holy Grail. There's the U48 too (..and 251, 49, 50, 67, 87,... plus Schoeps, RCA/AEA, Gefell, DPA, Beyer....)
Old 21st December 2010
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardpike View Post
Peluso makes U47 reproductions that are (according to many) indistinguishable from the originals... all varieties,
Peluso Microphone Lab U47 Tube clone
How could I believe in this when I know that Peluso have a U87/U67 shockmount on the market that not even fit the original Neumann microphone without squeezing the housing tube. Chinese crap, with no QC. When the head of a fish smells, how will smell the rest ?



Old 21st December 2010
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
How could I believe in this when I know that Peluso have a U87/U67 shockmount on the market that not even fit the original Neumann microphone without squeezing the housing tube. Chinese crap, with no QC. When the head of a fish smells, how will smell the rest ?



errr actually that shock mount happens to work fine on a U87, I bought one years ago, and it's worked fine since the day I got it. It's actually a copy of an older shock mount design that Neumann used. And I happen to own a 2247 which is a fine sounding microphone. I don't know about calling John Peluso one of the worlds most well regarded restoration artists, but he makes nice microphones, and capsules which are not chinese, stands behind them, and is one hell of a nice guy.
Old 21st December 2010
  #18
It's almost hard to care with so many other good mics out there. After a specific price point quality makes way for subtle differences and the price tag on these things makes me cringe. I've also never heard, so ignorance is bliss.
Old 21st December 2010
  #19
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad347 View Post
Now if someone could tool up to make a high quality VF14 again, then you might see some movement. But until then, I wouldn't bet the house on it, and honestly I think it's the right move.
Of course it could be done... the tooling cost is only about $600,000 USD - for a potential market of about 5-6000 units over the next 12-15 years [if you base the number on "historic" U-47 /48 sales from 1947 until production ceased [I believe in the early 60's]... wanna do the math on what that part would cost?

The market might even be smaller - while there are a whole bunch of people calling the mic the "Holy Grail" on GS - there are damn few that will actually buy one [even on a global scale] -- the actual market could be as few as 300 -350 units a year [smaller than it was in 1957] which would take it out to WAY over a decade to "recoup" the capital investment necessary to tool up the production run.

In the words of my father "smart man wouldn't do it and a lazy man wouldn't do it".
Old 21st December 2010
  #20
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wardpike View Post
Peluso makes U47 reproductions that are (according to many) indistinguishable from the originals... all varieties,
Peluso Microphone Lab U47 Tube clone
They also make an FET, not listed on their website as well as kits.

John Peluso is one of the world's most highly regarded "restoration artists" in the world of vintage microphones as well. Spoke with him today, you can't find a nicer guy.
I used an LE47 for about a year. Peluso may be a nice guy, but if his 47's are "indistinguishable from the originals" then there are a bunch of tin-eared U47 owners out there. (which I seriously doubt!)

I can say, with the utmost conviction, that the Peluso LE47 is not the holy grail of mics. Not even close.

These days I use a Brauner VM1 lite, and it totally blows the Peluso away. Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, since the VM1 is not a attempted U47 clone, but my only criteria is euphony. Thus far, the Brauner has never disappointed, while the Peluso often did.

Anyhow, sorry for the OT rant.

Fletcher has likely answered the question as accurately as possible.
Old 21st December 2010
  #21
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brad347's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Of course it could be done... the tooling cost is only about $600,000 USD - for a potential market of about 5-6000 units over the next 12-15 years [if you base the number on "historic" U-47 /48 sales from 1947 until production ceased [I believe in the early 60's]... wanna do the math on what that part would cost?

The market might even be smaller - while there are a whole bunch of people calling the mic the "Holy Grail" on GS - there are damn few that will actually buy one [even on a global scale] -- the actual market could be as few as 300 -350 units a year [smaller than it was in 1957] which would take it out to WAY over a decade to "recoup" the capital investment necessary to tool up the production run.

In the words of my father "smart man wouldn't do it and a lazy man wouldn't do it".
Obviously I wasn't actually offering that as a suggestion-- more a reason why we don't see "proper" U47 "reissues," which your numbers drive home nicely. My wording may have been confusing-- the "right move" in my opinion is electing to NOT produce some bullsh*t "reissue" with some other tube.

Regarding the tube, I wouldn't have had a clue what tooling costs would be, but I assumed it was cost-prohibitive, or someone would've done it already. I take it, from your numbers, that you or someone you know has actually looked into the prospect before? 600 large is interesting, and unsurprising. Was that for high-quality domestic production? I wonder if anyone ever looked into what China would do it for?
Old 21st December 2010
  #22
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Are you using it (the shockmount) upside down?






Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
How could I believe in this when I know that Peluso have a U87/U67 shockmount on the market that not even fit the original Neumann microphone without squeezing the housing tube. Chinese crap, with no QC. When the head of a fish smells, how will smell the rest ?



Old 21st December 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesaustin View Post
Are you using it (the shockmount) upside down?
No. I'm not using this crap. I never did. The wider part is the top part as shown in the pics. I put it on ebay UK months ago with exactly the discription that it is Chinese crap that not really fit the mic and that I will smash it with a hammer if it stays unsold. I sold it for about £30 and gave the money to the gipsy woman in front of our Tesco
Old 21st December 2010
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Of course it could be done... the tooling cost is only about $600,000 USD
Just out of curiosity, where did you get this number?
Old 21st December 2010
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
errr actually that shock mount happens to work fine on a U87, I bought one years ago, and it's worked fine since the day I got it. It's actually a copy of an older shock mount design that Neumann used. And I happen to own a 2247 which is a fine sounding microphone. I don't know about calling John Peluso one of the worlds most well regarded restoration artists, but he makes nice microphones, and capsules which are not chinese, stands behind them, and is one hell of a nice guy.
I have just lost all my lines with a time out. But f s I've missed my plane in London today as well because the infrastructure of our little country is not able to deal with a few inches snow. .

I honestly believe that your shockmount fits well. The product is probably inconsistent. If I would have bent the two lugs into a full angle of 90 degree it probably would have worked better. But this is not my job when I'm buying a new product. I liked the basket design that's the reason why I gave it a try. I'm using the original EA87 shockmount. It's Neumann, it has a consistent German quality, it's boring and it is perfect.

If I would offer a product line (and a part of my family is doing so since 1876) it has to be from quality from end-to-end because one bad apple degrades the good ones as well
Old 21st December 2010
  #26
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geareyes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
No. I'm not using this crap. I never did. The wider part is the top part as shown in the pics. I put it on ebay UK months ago with exactly the discription that it is Chinese crap that not really fit the mic and that I will smash it with a hammer if it stays unsold. I sold it for about £30 and gave the money to the gipsy woman in front of our Tesco
lol
Old 21st December 2010
  #27
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GYang's Avatar
Holy grail is usually not easily achievable something.
One day for me Wagner U47 is holy grail, another not.
IMO global needs for U47 sound are already very well covered (all vintages + all good clones + all mediocre clones) and currently the balance between supply and demand is pretty OK (pricewise original vintage being more expensive, as it keeps value better)
Old 21st December 2010
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Holy grail is usually not easily achievable something.
One day for me Wagner U47 is holy grail, another not.
lucky me - just got my U47w after waiting more than one year !
Old 21st December 2010
  #29
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Sorry, don't understand what your problem was. Could you be a bit more detailed? However, I have the same mount and it works perfectly.





Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
I have just lost all my lines with a time out. But f s I've missed my plane in London today as well because the infrastructure of our little country is not able to deal with a few inches snow. .

I honestly believe that your shockmount fits well. The product is probably inconsistent. If I would have bent the two lugs into a full angle of 90 degree it probably would have worked better. But this is not my job when I'm buying a new product. I liked the basket design that's the reason why I gave it a try. I'm using the original EA87 shockmount. It's Neumann, it has a consistent German quality, it's boring and it is perfect.

If I would offer a product line (and a part of my family is doing so since 1876) it has to be from quality from end-to-end because one bad apple degrades the good ones as well
Old 21st December 2010
  #30
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundrick View Post
Just out of curiosity, where did you get this number?
It has been researched by several in the industry [microphone manufacture / modification / restoration] - this is the number that has been thrown about, and knowing the source(s) -- I take it on faith as the sources are bona fide experts in this area.
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