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if the u47 is the holy grail of mics why are neumann not making the same mic? Condenser Microphones
Old 24th December 2010
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
heh I was asking you how you figured that amount. But Im with you on the 5k range or so being more of a demand. 12k for one mic...just too many other good options for less.

Tele, Wunder, and Wagner are small companies doing it for less than 12k. I'd figure a large company could lower the price even more. Does it need to be 100% actually the same in order to be a good re-issue...hummm?? heh Nope.


illacov It was a joke. But I love the reply.
If youre Neumann it does.
Old 24th December 2010
  #92
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
I think people seriously need to think about the talent they're recording, not the gear they're using. I know a studio with an awesome U47 yet the songs that come out of that studio are plain terrible.
BS my one year old son played my Les Paul through a Neve pre and a Focusrite for an AB test. The Neve made the guitar brillant and sound great where the focusrite sounded like scratching, buzzing strings played by a baby.heh
Old 24th December 2010
  #93
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Matti's Avatar
My child did it better without a pream vs. my neighbours ;-)

Merry xmas!

Matti
Old 24th December 2010
  #94
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
heh I was asking you how you figured that amount. But Im with you on the 5k range or so being more of a demand. 12k for one mic...just too many other good options for less.

Tele, Wunder, and Wagner are small companies doing it for less than 12k. I'd figure a large company could lower the price even more. Does it need to be 100% actually the same in order to be a good re-issue...hummm?? heh Nope.


illacov It was a joke. But I love the reply.
I don't know about the "too many other good options" for less. There are only a small handful that can do it at a superior quality equal to Neumann original standards of build and do it right. Sorry, but..The chances of them remaking the U47 is slim to none. Neumann has no desire to do such a thing. Its not logical in a business perspective. From what I was told by a little bird who sits and chirps at Neumann's base in Berlin.

So guys, I would not get your hopes up and get a good U47 that can be had before they all dry up. People do retire, People do say, I am not making this anymore, no money in it, People do pass away, Business do go out of business. And do you research, on which U47 is built right and who does it the best at this time and all the time or has a good track record of happy buyers.

There are just too many reasons why Neumann wouldn't and anyone else who has a business like theirs wouldn't.

I am not going to write a novel on why. But I can tell you a few common sense business minded reasons that first come to my mind.

#1. Neumann has a reputation that is already secure and has been built like a brick shxt house. There is no need for them to build their name anymore than what it is. They rather make, for example, a TLM 103 mic (competition mic for Audio Technica) , which is 1/4 of the labor and parts of the U47, sell it to all those "Walmart" type music online stores like Musicians friend, Guitar Centers, Sweetwater, etc, in turn these dealers sell the Neumann (french fry product) "name and reputation/badge" at a low enough cost to thousands of newbees, bed room hobbyist, etc, etc. And sell them as many as Mcdonalds sold hamburgers with 1/4 of the effort/cost if at that of a U47 mic. They rather not, go back in time, work like they did 50 years ago, bust their azz, sweat while holding a solder iron, do point to point wiring, R/D and get the authentic parts, to make a real U47 again. Neumann would at least sell their remake U47 for 12-15K. Since it is a brand new original in 2011. And then they would slap a big fat George Neumann Anniversary Coin on the mic body with a butt azz ugly blue metallic tint.

How many GS users here would buy it? Probably, not many. There are more low end guys than high end guys and in the world of gear selling business. Big Studios own originals. They have no need for a remake like you think. Bedroom guys or starters can't afford it. etc, etc.

#2. It takes a well experienced German x engineer or Neumann authorized repair tech to make such as thing to the standards Neumann would want in their product line. No offense, but they wouldn't hire anyone here in the USA to contribute and build it. They would most likely not settle for anything less than Gunter or Andreas to do it for them. Since these two guys have the experience and knowledge to do it to their standard. And they worked for them.

#3 The M7 isn't an easy task for your typical chinese child laborers to do. Anyone here who says its simple as glue, hasn't sold and built as many well respected M7s as Siegfried Theirsch in Germany. Or worked for Geffell. Its a piece of art! Siegfried is in his last quarter. You best get a few before the M7 becomes a VF14 tube collectors item. If you want a guaranteed good M7 in a Neumann reissue U47, you would most likely have Theirsch be the go to guy. Has it crossed anyone's mind why Neumann doesn't use the M7 in their current mics? Think about that.

The list goes on and on. Enough to write about that a stressed out GS user who comes here to vent, would insult me and say why did you write me a book punk?

Buy an original U47, or a damm good remake that you can afford. That is, If you really want one or care. Some say here, its not the tools, its the talent. Whatever. Pro race car drivers don't drive consumer grade camaro's at the race track. If you are a Pro. You compete or work with Pros. And you need "Pro tools"

Research everything you can about what makes a U47 a U47 and who does it right and knows how to do it right. And research the guy or company who makes it. You will soon know who has the right mic for your needs and desires. thumbsup



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
I think people seriously need to think about the talent they're recording, not the gear they're using. I know a studio with an awesome U47 yet the songs that come out of that studio are plain terrible.
I know those kind of studios too Chris. But you can't put a Fed Ex Truck driver guy in a indy 500 race car. And expect him to win a Indy 500 right?
Old 24th December 2010
  #95
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Don i see you miss my point. "too many other good options" for less to get a good recording done. heh
for 12K you can get a good mic, good pre, and a good compressor.
Old 24th December 2010
  #96
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
$12k?
How much do you think they would sell it for?
I don't know if there is anything in particular you're talking about - but I know a pretty "dead nuts" reissue that can be had for $8,495.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Siegfried is in his last quarter. You best get a few before the M7 becomes a VF14 tube collectors item.
If I'm not mistaken - Rico [Siegfried's son-in-law] is being groomed to take over the business -- or at least that was the appearance when we all had lunch last summer.

Peace.
Old 24th December 2010
  #97
Here for the gear
 

Peluso 2247

You have to remember that one thing that can not be built into a new mic is age. Thats one thing that the old Neumann U47 have that greatly contributes to their tone.

I have a Peluso 2247 that I bought in 2006 and it has many many hours of use on it. It really has developed a much better tone over time.
Old 24th December 2010
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
I don't know if there is anything in particular you're talking about - but I know a pretty "dead nuts" reissue that can be had for $8,495.



If I'm not mistaken - Rico [Siegfried's son-in-law] is being groomed to take over the business -- or at least that was the appearance when we all had lunch last summer.

Peace.

I have heard that too Fletch. His family is helping and learning the trade. I hope that his family does continue the trade indefinitely for us all in same or better quality. I haven't yet bought a few spares as of yet. But planning to get a few for decades down the road and store them away.




Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
Don i see you miss my point. "too many other good options" for less to get a good recording done. heh
for 12K you can get a good mic, good pre, and a good compressor.

Ah...sorry about that... You are absolutely right. You got plenty of other options to make a good solid recording. I thought you meant within U47 clones. But I must say for me at least and when used particularly with male voices, a genuine U47 brings some sort of unique signature to the recording that no other mic will do. And I think the presence of seeing it, that huge metal bodied, chrome headed grille mic hanging down from a heavy stand speaks to or touches everyone involved in session.


A Brief History of the U-47 (from the George Neumann Archives)

The U 47, which appeared in the year 1949, introduced the pioneering technology of switchable polar patterns, and was characterized by a unique sound. While multipattern technology has now become a standard feature in many microphones, the sound of this mic remains legendary and is still highly prized today.

In the past, superstars such as Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Frank Sinatra, the Beatles, Miles Davis and David Bowie used the U 47 repeatedly during the course of their careers. This mic remains a top favorite even today, and is used in numerous contemporary productions.

The U47 was the first multipattern condenser, the U47 ushered in the era of the modern studio mic, and even more than 50 years after its birth, it remains one of the world’s most sought-after and desirable studio tools.

The U47 featured a high- performance (and now nearly impossible to find)
VF14 tube and the dual -diaphragm M7 capsule— essentially back-to-back
cardioid capsules that combine to create an omni pattern, or can be
used singly for a cardioid pickup.

Due to distribution issues with Telefunken and post- war production snags, the
U47 officially debuted in 1949. The Telefunken U47s— which other than the logo,
were 100% identical to the models bearing the Neumann name—were sold to European broadcasters and to the U.S. market, where they soon replaced RCA ribbons as the studio mic of choice.

The U 47 is a popular vocal mic. There were many U 47s and U 48s used for the Beatles recordings. On the Beatle's Rubber Soul album, virtually every track — from vocals, drums, guitars and the tambourine — were recorded with a U 47. George Martin wrote that it is his favorite microphone. Frank Sinatra refused to record without his “Telly,” as the mic was nicknamed. Mercury Records promoted the U 47 as its Living Presence microphone, putting the mic's image on its record covers. Sound engineer Bill Porter used it exclusively on recordings by Elvis Presley, the Everly Brothers and most of Roy Orbison's hits.

In 1953, a U 47 sold for about $390.


Tube Condenser Microphone (NOS Tube)
Max. SPL 150 dB
Old 24th December 2010
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I was just guessing, though I was thinking the street price would probably be cheaper, like maybe 10 grand. heh

They sell a microphone now that lists for $10,798, the D-01. You can bet that a U-47 reissue in 2011 would sell for a lot more.
But how many recording studios(larger or small) purchased the one they own? Hell, how many even own have one? The DMI-2 interface itself lists for $1500. (D1 mic package lists for $10800 and retails for $8000). A NEUAMNN U47 re-issue costing "a lot more" than what 3-4 smaller companies produce them for would be a bit overboard. Bad economy or not. heh

Quote:
The system of the Solution-D digital microphone generation consists of three components: the Digital Microphone D-01, the Digital Microphone Interface DMI-2, and Remote Control Software RCS that permits operation and thus remote control of the microphone.
Old 24th December 2010
  #100
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
They sell a microphone now that lists for $10,798, the D-01. You can bet that a U-47 reissue in 2011 would sell for a lot more.
You're comparing apples and wheelchairs... not the quite the same league, hell its barely the same sport. FWIW, I know of a reissue that goes for $8,495- [in 2011, and very possibly (as in most probably) 2012 too] which last I looked was under $10,000 USD.

Peace.
Old 24th December 2010
  #101
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

On a less technical and economic note, I wonder how people would respond to the sound of a cherry 47 if the guts resided in a cheap-looking chinese knockoff body.

Not that people wouldn't recognize that it was a great sound they were hearing, but would they project the same air of rarefied magic and grandeur onto it, or would it simply be another great sounding mic?

I have my suspicions...


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 25th December 2010
  #102
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
On a less technical and economic note, I wonder how people would respond to the sound of a cherry 47 if the guts resided in a cheap-looking chinese knockoff body.

Not that people wouldn't recognize that it was a great sound they were hearing, but would they project the same air of rarefied magic and grandeur onto it, or would it simply be another great sounding mic?

I have my suspicions...


Gregory Scott - ubk
Excellent point Greg!

Peace
Illumination
Old 25th December 2010
  #103
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
On a less technical and economic note, I wonder how people would respond to the sound of a cherry 47 if the guts resided in a cheap-looking chinese knockoff body.

Not that people wouldn't recognize that it was a great sound they were hearing, but would they project the same air of rarefied magic and grandeur onto it, or would it simply be another great sounding mic?

I have my suspicions...


Gregory Scott - ubk
Valid point Greg. I was wondering the same thing in relation with cars. If you had a Lamborghini Diablo motor/transmission, brakes, exhaust system and tires in a Hyundai Accent korean made body, would it project the same rarefied magic, beat the original from 0-60 mph and attract as much gold digging women as a 100% Lamborghini would? Or would it simply be another great automobile? I have my suspicions on this subject as well... heh
Old 26th December 2010
  #104
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Sorry I missed this thread...I should have commented earlier.

Being in connecticut I know most of the upper eschelon Sennheisser/Neumann people. Several have recorded with me over the years.

Every once and a while they will bring one of the Euros by to chat about new products and market conditions. A couple of months ago we had one of those coffee klatches. Most of what we talked about I can't get into, although you will see it soon.

But I raised the U47 question. In short, they feel that to really recreate the mic the price will simply be too high, not just in materials but in tooling. I also got the impression they did not want to have to deal with the "is it really as good" or "I heard the screws were different" kind of stuff that goes on....well....here, as well as in other forums.

Coincidently, the one part I heard about continually was the metalwork, the tubes for the mics. They felt it would be really hard to get right. I asked about other clones....they simply said they weren't really right.

Basically it was "in order to make the mic that can stand up to scrutiny, it will be too expensive to warrant our effort".

I respected the candor. Its easy to log on and bash this or that mic, but I think that as a company they are still committed to making mics that work for the vast majority of folks.

And they freely admit that a lot of the boutique mics are very good and fill a needed spot in the market.

But they also feel that they are not quite U47s either. And they would know.
Old 26th December 2010
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
But they also feel that they are not quite U47s either. And they would know.

A good while back I was in deep conversation with a small German concern that is recreating an EAB tube pre (50's era competitor to Telefunken) and they have a design which out-v72's a v72, if that makes sense.

Anyway, they are beyond obsessive about nailing every exacting detail of the tone, construction, and signal integrity. I had a fully-functional prototype in my studio over a year ago, it was stunning in every way. We discussed co-branding, manufacturing in the u.s., etc. The product was, imho, ready to go and good enough to best the best.

Fast forward 12 months and serious $$$ later, they are still tweaking, tweezing, and sweating minutiae on a level that surpasses my comprehension. We long since abandoned talks of doing business together, I'm insane but I'm not that insane.

Germans are fanatical about engineering and design in a way I don't think America, UK, and other European states will ever fully understand. I'd say it's cultural, but sometimes I think it's genetic. I have no trouble understanding why Neumann wouldn't want to undertake the task of recreating the most revered mic in the history of life on earth; it's just too monumental an undertaking for people with an ethic that allows for so little in the way of design compromise. Add to that an exceedingly vocal marketplace that has equally little tolerance for any such compromises in the face of claims of authenticity, and the whole thing seems like a can of worms best left sealed in an underground bunker.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 26th December 2010
  #106
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Greg....you must have been there, lol. Well, maybe you have.

The simple fact is that even if the mic says Neumann on the side, so much time and change has gone by that it is still essentially yet another clone.

And I suppose it might even be "the closest" because they have the original spec. But that really doesn't mean it will be exact, or even the best mic...if indeed you can even declare a mic at that level "the best". Which in my opinion, you really can't.

The U47 IS the holy grail of mics simply because it hasn't been made for years, and because there are photos of Sinatra, and John Lennon, and "iconic artist here" singing into one.

And by the fact that it isn't made, many great mics are being made to emulate it, and many of these are wonderful tools in their own right. Neumann realizes they don't need to make another, and that as long as they don't the legend continues.

Anyway clone makers....carry on. You passion leads you to make some great tools.
Old 26th December 2010
  #107
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nikodemos's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
And by the fact that it isn't made, many great mics are being made to emulate it, and many of these are wonderful tools in their own right. Neumann realizes they don't need to make another, and that as long as they don't the legend continues.
+1 .....adding that "the legend continues for Neumann too"

I mean that if U47 was recreated today by Neumann or even better if it never ceased production it would NEVER be such a mythical object, at least regarding pricing (and in accordance regarding pricing of it's modern clone recreations). Neumann would have been just another great mass production mic maker like all the other and u47 clones would cost a fraction of today's prices....so as far as marketing is concerned stoping the production of U47 was a great decision for both Neumann (who now is the mythical manufacturer of U47...wow!!! and not just a division of senheiser making nice mics) and butique mic builders who sale mics pricing by the looks and "how close to originall you can get"....

On the other hand if u47 was still in production today i guess it would be fairly priced and smaller mic designers would squeeze their minds for new and original designs and maybe have given the world a new classic.....

...and don't forget that U47 stood out of the crowd in a chronical area when all aspects of audio production were completelly different than today......
Old 26th December 2010
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
. . . .

And they freely admit that a lot of the boutique mics are very good and fill a needed spot in the market.

But they also feel that they are not quite U47s either. And they would know.
How many $10k Neumann Solution-D mic pkgs have they sold? heh
Old 26th December 2010
  #109
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

U47 sales had tanked by the late 1950s. The Sony C-37A and the Schoeps along with the M-49 were considered superior condenser microphones and Neumann answered this challenge with the U67.
Old 26th December 2010
  #110
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
U47 sales had tanked by the late 1950s. The Sony C-37A and the Schoeps along with the M-49 were considered superior condenser microphones and Neumann answered this challenge with the U67.
Now that IS interesting.

The circuits in both those microphones are much more promising for part sourcing than the U47.

I actually had a prototype of a 6AU6A tube mic that had a Sony C37 capsule in it with a big giant Jensen transformer. It had alot of that mojo that people associate with the U47 IMHO. However it was its own unique sound as well, definitely not a clone by any means, still very very nice. heh

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th December 2010
  #111
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Back then virtually every pro studio had at least one U47/48 so they didn't offer anything in the way of bragging rights.
Old 26th December 2010
  #112
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They claimed the last batch of 67s would be the last because of some tooling that had worn out.
Old 26th December 2010
  #113
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

somebody here tried tlm67? not a bad mic imo
Old 27th December 2010
  #114
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Some perspective from Martin Schneider (Neumann), from KH mic forum.

-----------------------------------

If you have fully working KM53, KM54 or KM56 / KM88, keep them, treasure them, and treat them like you would a 60 years old sports car. Don't take it personal, but, no: we do not peddle used tires coming from car crashes, nor do we sell carpets

I'm afraid these typical world wide forum assumptions on Big Bad Marketing and Ugly Bean Counters are a bit tiring.
Did anybody wipe their tears in 1971 when tube microphones were discontinued, and the *users* were very happy to be rid of big ugly separate power supplies for each single microphone?
Did anybody complain when small mic capsules finally got safer to use, around 1963/1965, with the advent of stable Mylar foil?
How many M50 were sold in the whole of 1971? Something like 3 pieces, if I remember correctly.

When making assumptions, please remember that most classic microphone manufacturers are still family-owned businesses. They are neither public companies nor shareholder value driven. But they still have to make a profit, in order to survive.
Old 27th December 2010
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
It has been researched by several in the industry [microphone manufacture / modification / restoration] - this is the number that has been thrown about, and knowing the source(s) -- I take it on faith as the sources are bona fide experts in this area.
The simple fact is if it was half that number it would still be an iffy investment. The usage is simply too specialized.

People should make great mics. If they want to make great mics in the tradition of the U47 also fine. Some of these mics sound a lot like certain U47s, some not. But most of them perform great in a session, which is all that really matters.
Old 27th December 2010
  #116
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Steffmo, I completely agree. "it's the sound" and yes, if you want "that" sound, plenty of people are making damned fine @ of the U47.

I'd bet most of the decent U47/48 (flea, Wagner,wunder,Tele,AG, etc) probably sound better than 50% of the originals that are still out there in various state of repair. Think about it. If you have an original with a replaced trannie, capsule or VF14 (to a diff tube etc) then these mics can be nearly identical. Because you can get good body parts, good trannies, hell even a Neumann K47/49. I like the thread where the guy wrote, we swapped in (some new tube or AG fet) and nobody has said a thing.
Old 27th December 2010
  #117
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Matti's Avatar
Its about the illusion of "being near/there" with premium mics you cannot have with similar but with similar cheaper components or wrong parameters etc. Faults cumulate to being just good

Matti

P.S. -my english again
Old 28th December 2010
  #118
Gear Head
 

thanks for the insight guys, i guess if the tubes ever go back onto the market, i expect a dozen more accurate clones + expensive clones.
Old 28th December 2010
  #119
There is currently an availability of 8 VF14s on a certain auction site, at reasonable prices.

If I presently owned a VG to EX condition U47, I would buy them all in a heartbeat...and Visa would love me for it. LOL
Old 28th December 2010
  #120
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Matti's Avatar
Buy them all and keep the one if to mic specs, if lucky -and sell the rest

Matti
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