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if the u47 is the holy grail of mics why are neumann not making the same mic? Condenser Microphones
Old 22nd December 2010
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
call me names if you want, but I guess your ears are just that much more finely tuned than mine, because to me there isn't a single decent mic in the TLM line.
my tlm 103 has been the mic of choice lately when it comes to acoustic guitars.
I have a heap of other mics and this has been my preferred choice.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
A CD costs around 20 cents to make, yet it is sold at €20.

This should give you and idea about the differences between manufacturing costs and final street prices.

Whatever the company and manufactured product, there are dozens of involved costs not apparent to the public that has never run a business. Licenses, insurances, R&D, amortizations, financial costs, salaries, ss, maintenance, taxes etc, etc, etc. Add to that marketing, distribution, retail, VAT (18-25%) and such and you'll understand better why things cost what they do. This applies to 100% of companies all over the planet.

On the other hand, any business is an investment. When one can easily obtain profitabilites close to 5% with zero risk, any activity with some sort of risk, as a manufacturing company, must yield profitabilities of 10-30% for people to even entertain the thought of considerate them as viable. What are the expected sales? Will we get more profit by investing in some other product instead? (cost of opportunity)


Building a tooling machine to manufacture VF14s is just a 1% of the whole story.

If re-issuing a U47, part for part, VF14 included, was profitable, some company would have already done it.

There is your answer.
I don't know if your essay is addressed to me but I know a bit about business economics too.
Only a tube manufacturer would be able to give the answer if it would make sense for them to reproduce the VF-14. . . as stated in my line "if they can see a worthwile market for it".

I'm convinced that a VF-14 remake, if on the market, would find much more utilisation than being part of an U-47 circuit only. I'm sure many mic companies will develope instantly a new microphone based on the reputable and marketable U-47 tube.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
i've read numerous posts of his where he's mentioned his beloved u47fet
Yes the u47fet is a tool to have. I was money hungry and sold mine a few years back.

someday I will buy another.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #64
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It's fun to sit back and watch a spark turn into a full fledged fire. In several threads the VF14 has come up. I've watched the naysayers, the optomists and everything in between. The whole time, the whole idea propelling forward and being refined.
I think there is a demand for the VF14 and it will no doubt be a specialty tube (just like it always has been) but I like the discussion as people take it away from the original thought of selling it to a few U47/48 owners to the idea of mic makers and other "audio circuits" incorporating the tube. Where there's a demand, there will be a product. I really think it's going to take an investment group, maybe all the vintage makers, maybe JJ Tubes, who knows. But it's at a stage of swell where it has to be getting notice. But there's still a huge investment to be made. Personally I'd love to see it happen, but I think there will always be those people who will say...oh it's not like the original.
On another note. I'm in Kansas and if anybody needs me to go kick Ollie in the pants to get those 701's going just give me the word!! :-)
I really think that's a doable project and well worth the investment. Those tubes are getting stupid priced as well and if it's indeed true that Oliver has the stuff, it would seem foolish not to do it. I'd be interested in investing in that project.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
...why is no one doing a remake of an M49...
That's what runs through my mind every time I read something like this.

The U-47 was by far the most popular microphone chosen for publicity shots of singers, i.e. the holy grail for photographers but it was not a very practical vocal microphone for vinyl due to its popping and sibilance issues. Lots of records with a 47 pictured on the album jacket were actually recorded with RCA 77s, Sony C-37s, Telefunken-branded Schoeps condensers, M-49s and even Shure 545s and 546s.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #66
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Well then lets get on Oliver to start making these tubes and get flea to start popping them in and I'll sell tons!!! :-)
Old 22nd December 2010
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
That's what runs through my mind every time I read something like this.

The U-47 was by far the most popular microphone chosen for publicity shots of singers, i.e. the holy grail for photographers but it was not a very practical vocal microphone for vinyl due to its popping and sibilance issues. Lots of records with a 47 pictured on the album jacket were actually recorded with RCA 77s, Sony C-37s, Telefunken-branded Schoeps condensers, M-49s and even Shure 545s and 546s.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #68
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I think the real question is not, why is Neumann not still making the U47, but why is Telefunken not still making the VF14 vacuum tube? For I feel, if Telefunken (AEG, not Connecticut), were still making the VF14 today, then Neumann *may* have still had a shot at making the U47 today.

For better, or worse, global technology has left the vacuum tube era and our world is now based on semiconductors. Which makes producing the tube, much less the microphone, a challenge. With the costs of German labor, tooling, and other numerous production costs, its difficult to believe re-engineering the U47, and its components, would be profitable today. The tube itself would probably be a quarter of the cost of the mic.

If you want to manufacture an authentic VF14, you gotta do it the old-fashioned way, *by hand*. It's not an assembly line process. The workers must have at least the high skills of a dentist. Just to *hand draw* molten tungsten and molybdenum into wire less than the width of a human hair, would be cost prohibitive. Not to mention the *numerous* other steps needed (see below if interested).

Nonetheless, if the VF14 were available, Neumann could conceivably still make the U47 as a one-off, loss-leader, "display of technology," concept-car type prestige product (eg Lamborghini Reventon). But the VF14 is not available.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
*[VF-14 manufacturing steps: grid weaving, wire cutting/coiling, alumina insulation coating, carbon coating plates, plate die-shaping less than the width of a Kleenex with *hand-measured* micrometer accuracy, cathode welding, electron spraying, *hand weighing* for uniform measurement, getter flashing, stem/header/collar welding, glass tube drawing, lead-wire soldering, *hand-checked* flame-sealing stem-fusion for vacuum, stem-annealing, polariscope-checking of stem symmetry, lead-wire bending, grid mounting, cathode/anode assembly, heater-coil placement, support-rod welding, cage welding, getter welding, collar placement, header-skirt welding, *don't get shocked by the 50K amps while you're at it*, exhaust-manifold assembly, tube heating, gas exhausting, electrical induction getter flashing, tube torch sealing, tube envelope fusing, trim/solder lead-wires, paint coating, face crimping, aging, QC testing & evaluation, packaging, supply-chain management, marketing, sales, service etc].
Old 22nd December 2010
  #69
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pongmaster's Avatar
 

..

...and still...a u47 is more than just the vf14.
who knows exactly whats the contribution of the vf14?
mic service-experts? yes, but its their interest that those mics are
sought after and mystic, its their business.
i have real u47s and a Andreas Grosser u47 with his vf14fet,
of course i swapped the tubes and checked, and his vf14fet is just perfect.

if someone can't let go the thought of having a real u47, he must buy one anyway, otherwise there are good options around already.

the risk for neumann that a reissue gets bashed for a minor detail, is very big.
i can already hear the comments, like ..."sennheiser u47", even if its perfectly recreated...
Old 22nd December 2010
  #70
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock View Post
The U47 and 48 are horrible microphones. I think everyone should spread the word on how bad they are and as soon as their value is degraded.

"I will call Bill Bradley and buy one just to prove mt point. "

Tell everybody how bad the U47 and 48 are. Please. heh

blasphemy
Old 22nd December 2010
  #71
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Flora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
A CD costs around 20 cents to make, yet it is sold at €20.
Where do you get your cds manufactured and artwork printed and recording costs covered and artwork/layout etc made for 20 cents a piece? And who charges 20 pounds for a cd? This is a different universe than the one I live in.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #72
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Jamie Mac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flora View Post
Where do you get your cds manufactured and artwork printed and recording costs covered and artwork/layout etc made for 20 cents a piece? And who charges 20 pounds for a cd? This is a different universe than the one I live in.
That's euro, not pounds.. and 20 euro is generally what CD's cost in shops, here in europe
Old 22nd December 2010
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Mac View Post
That's euro, not pounds.. and 20 euro is generally what CD's cost in shops, here in europe
Got it.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
It would be interesting to know how many of the high end re-issues that Telefunken has sold in the last couple of years.

. . . .
good thought, but what about including the total number sold from all the other U47 re-issues, clones, inspired by, etc. heh

"Realizing the number of 1073 copies out there, along with the skyrocketing prices for originals, AMS-Neve decided to re-issue a new 1073."
AMS-Neve-Products-Classic-1073



Quote:
Wunder CM7
Wagner U47w
HORCH RM2J
Telefunken RFT AK47
Telefunken U47 M
Korby KAT U47
Vertigo Sound VS47
BeeNeez Tribute1
Pearlman TM 1
Peluso 2247 SE
Manley Reference
Lawson L47MP MKII
Telefunken U47AE
Bock Audio 507
Soundelux E47
Old 23rd December 2010
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
So my question becomes why is no one doing a remake of an M49 for a reasonable price? Wait, I said reasonable price...
The FLEA 49 is priced similarly to the Neumann M149, the Brauner VM1 or the Manley Gold.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #76
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Just curious - do you have it on actual knowledge that it was a 47FET or is that just supposition because he mentioned a kik drum?

FWIW - valve 47's [and 48's!!!!!!] work great outside of kik drums too!!

Peace.

Never owned a fet, will agree that my 47 is my 1st choice on outside kick, I use a pad on it, a few inches away from the head. Gives that nice distorted bite which doesn't need much eq the "click" if that is what you want to call it.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpiwoman View Post
Will agree that my 47 is my 1st choice on outside kick, I use a pad on it, a few inches away from the head.
I haven't had an opportunity to work with a good U47 for a little while now and have been sorely missing the pleasure. Anyone who owns one in this day and age is pretty lucky. And of-course they won't be making more. Sennheiser wouldn't want them to.

The U47 is a bona-fide Legend. It's a marketer's dream. Neumann is a brand/company built on venerable "Legendary" products. They'll quite happily parlay using those "Legends" to sell newer products.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #78
Registered User
 

Enough gear worship!

If only I had this, if only I had that, then....then....then things would sound good.

Good.

Golly.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_subsonic View Post
The U47 is a bona-fide Legend. It's a marketer's dream. Neumann is a brand/company built on venerable "Legendary" products. They'll quite happily parlay using those "Legends" to sell newer products.
...well said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaphappy View Post
Enough gear worship!

If only I had this, if only I had that, then....then....then things would sound good.

Good.

Golly.
...what's that they say about "worshipping false idols"?...
Old 23rd December 2010
  #80
lol.... fletcher!
"If you would like to learn more about these things I would suggest you take a class at your local community college, or perhaps visit your local library."
Old 23rd December 2010
  #81
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaphappy View Post
Enough gear worship!

If only I had this, if only I had that, then....then....then things would sound good.

Good.

Golly.
....Yep, and all of it in the face of the fact that no one has ever been able to reliably pick out microphones or preamps in A/B tests. They get really good at critiquing A/B tests though, don't they?

I consider the question of whether Neumann should make a new 47 irrelevant. With all the truly wonderful studio gear available to us today in an exponentially wider array than ever before, why bother? Some of these modern boutique guys are building absolutely beautiful-sounding gems with a level of care and attention to detail that Stradivari would be proud of.

However, the question remains regarding why Neumann doesn't still make the U47, and it's an interesting thing to consider in many aspects as evidenced above
Old 23rd December 2010
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixAndChange View Post
The classic Sinatra shot.
When we wrote "Love Wont Let me Wait",this is the image that was conjured up.
But whats with the dreaded exposed fiberglass on the gobo?
Old 23rd December 2010
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
But most of them are way cheaper than what a U47 reissue would likely cost, so the other sales might not give you a very realistic idea of the potential sales of a new U47.
I'd agree to disagree. It should give you a good idea of what type of DEMAND exists for that mic sound. (even with ruling out some of them.) Price?...maybe use the median price of all the other U47 types as a starting point to what it might sell for. Next you'd figure the cost of production and projected sales.

Maybe Neumann/Sennheiser is too far behind the game to reissue one? Maybe not. I'm sure a larger company might cut costs with bulk material purchases vs a smaller company. Maybe even save on mic assembly labor. Maybe not. heh
Old 23rd December 2010
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Sound or not, the demand for a $5,000 clone probably would be higher than it would be for a $12,000 U47 reissue.
$12k?
Old 23rd December 2010
  #85
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I just think its a bit much to make such a stink about U47 vs clones in the first place.

Case in point, we're servicing a U48 over the winter. Unfortunately the microphone has a bad capsule, dead tube, dead PSU etc....The item is in for repair/restoration and the costs would be significant to get the mic back in original working order. The idea that was expressed to us was to GET IT TO WORK. So that's what we're doing. Apparently the microphone was modded previously by another shop and is NOT configured like the U48 originally was by Neumann.

It raised a valid point as well. If somebody is low on cash (something about the economy being in shambles comes to mind) and needs to fix a mic like this or get it to work again, what should they do? Spend several grand to get it to work or do something else?

I recall T Funk offering replacement VF14 tubes and other companies offering alternative tubes that work in the U47 socket (Saturn and Andreas Grosser come to mind).

Otherwise the original tubes are out of production, the transformer lams, the capacitors????

The only thing that remains is the capsule (K47).

So really in all honesty you can't truly make a U47 anymore. The schematic remains as a testament to the genius behind the design, a guideline and a history lesson.

I could really care less what the mic is called or who thinks it sounds like XYZ.

I really enjoy the sound that the Thiersch M7 Blueline capsules offer with a nice tube and transformer. PIO cap, adequate B+ voltage. Sounds incredible.

I mean seriously this kind of debate is the type of stuff kids argue about except its Bakugon cards lol.

Just get a mic that offers the tone you want and move on. There's plenty of options out there that fill people's needs.

Peace
Illumination
Old 23rd December 2010
  #86
Wow, you guys play rough...
Old 23rd December 2010
  #87
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heh
illacov, are the AMS-Neve 1073/1084 re-issues currently made 100% exactly like the original Neve 1073/1084?
Old 24th December 2010
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
heh
illacov, are the AMS-Neve 1073/1084 re-issues currently made 100% exactly like the original Neve 1073/1084?
Ummmm....

As a non-Neve Employee I would be farting through a trombone if I even tried to comment on this lol.

I have no idea.


I sense a lurking factoid hidden in your wit HAR HAR

Where my Dave Chappelle "I Pleads the Fifth," gif at??

Peace
Illumination
Old 24th December 2010
  #89
I think people seriously need to think about the talent they're recording, not the gear they're using. I know a studio with an awesome U47 yet the songs that come out of that studio are plain terrible.
Old 24th December 2010
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
How much do you think they would sell it for?
heh I was asking you how you figured that amount. But Im with you on the 5k range or so being more of a demand. 12k for one mic...just too many other good options for less.

Tele, Wunder, and Wagner are small companies doing it for less than 12k. I'd figure a large company could lower the price even more. Does it need to be 100% actually the same in order to be a good re-issue...hummm?? heh Nope.


illacov It was a joke. But I love the reply.
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