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Alright, so who DOES it?
Old 18th August 2002
  #1
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Do you DO it?

So how many of you wise guys nudge your DAW overdubs to make up for tracking latency?

Most of the clients and free-lancers I talk to at our facility think it doesn't matter -- or more truthfully, they don't think about it all.

Waddyall think -- is it important or is it BS?

If you do it, how many samples are you removing?

I'll give my usual number after a few replies come in.
Old 18th August 2002
  #2
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

To answer your question, yes. But I'm a track nudgin' wh*re. If I'm doing "live" music, I stay away from the +/- keys. But since I do so much programed music, I like nudgin' stuff around to give it a more human feel. I don't nudge much to account for latency, say maybe, 3ms tops. (I think 128 samples is the actual amount, but I could be wrong)
Old 20th August 2002
  #3
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

E-cue,

I'm particularly interested in how many people deal (or don't deal) with latency changing the timing of their overdubs.

With so many digital/DAW-users out there, I'm surprised this seems to be a non-issue for them.
Old 20th August 2002
  #4
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

DP its a non-issue. it automatically adjusts it for you.
Old 20th August 2002
  #5
There is an 8 sample delay with PT or 16 both ways, Jon what are you getting at?

Native DAWS owners have work around but what are you doing on PT?

With PT at worst you get some comb filtering in headphones, nothing NEAR a flam or 64th beat..

Spill da beanz you obsessive precision loony!

I dont thing a comb filter sized delay can have very much impact on "groove" personally!

Auto tuning can cause an average 50-60 samples delay which is aggravating on fast consonant loaded vocals. But that can be put back in the original spot by Voc Align..

My drums in a mix right now all have a 19 sample delay caused by plug ins or me making them 'all the same' to match and preserve phase within the kit and the copy kit tracks I am sending out to a compressor and the bass perhaps has a delay of 12 samples by its different plug ins.. The 7 sample difference between the two isn't making me sweat right now.. It sounds good to me..

Am I missing something?

Oh I know! The compressed drums are infact probably one picco second later than the uncompressed drums due to them going through an SSL compressors electronics!

heh
Old 20th August 2002
  #6
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

With the players I record here occasionally, latency would be a good excuse for thier playing...

I have never thought about it for overdubs.. but then i don't make anything that even resembles a Steely Dan record. I don;t hear a problem, so I guess I do not think about it..
Old 20th August 2002
  #7
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I have worked with producers that claim they can hear the difference in a sound nudged 1 sample value (morons). Gotta love "Apple Apple", and other "fakey" keys.
Old 20th August 2002
  #8
Jon can be infuriatinlngly 'allways right' at times, he is, as I have said before, rather "golden eared" and admarably takes time to do exaustive comparisons......

heh

So I am bracing myself for his probably right, annoying answer, and am ready to grit my teeth to thank him and adopt whatever it is into my future working methodology!

heh

Hit us with it professor! Whats the scoop!?

Old 20th August 2002
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Yah Jon spill the beans. I've never noticed a problem in either punchs or overdubs, using Nuendo. We use direct monitering when tracking and overdubbing so I have my system set for high buffers, somewhere around 750 ms, as I get more rock solid tracking that way. Take care Logan
Old 20th August 2002
  #10
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Naw, nothing new, guys. E-cue got it right.

When your artist overdubs onto a DAW session (I'll talk about PT, because it's what I know best), he/she/it hears the music about 1.5ms later than your computer played it, thanks to your converters.

For the same reason, the artist's performance then arrives another 1.5ms later onto your hard drive.
The result is that the take is roughly 3ms later in time than the artist meant it to be.

3ms is a perceptible change in feel to my ears ... so it makes sense IMO to nudge the overdubs earlier in time to be coherent with the artist's original intention and feel.

Thing is, no one I see in action ever does it.

So, who DOES it?
Old 20th August 2002
  #11
Hang on, if everything takes 1.5 ms to leave the hard drive it is in the same 'gang' so only a 1.5 ms (your figure) offset is required..

Also I feel 1.5 ms is a WAY too high figure for PT. I think it is in fact MUCH lower than that..


i think maximum the loop through delay is 119 samples that aint no 1.5 ms..

Your scaremongering Jon!

My sessions aren't 3ms out of time!

Bring out the experts!

I call Nika Aldrich to the stand, er no, he has his own forum......Here http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/viewforum.php

Uh...

Hmmmmm

Old 20th August 2002
  #12
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Jules,

1ms at 44.1kHz is 44 samples.

1ms at 48kHz is 48 samples.

At 48kHz on a PT/Apogee rig with no plugins instantiated, a DA+AD 'round trip' takes about 125-128 samples, or roughly 2.7 ms.

The relevant delay is the 'round trip' latency time (2.7ms), not the 'one way' latency time (1.35ms).

So who DOES the 2.7ms nudge-nudge?
Old 20th August 2002
  #13
Gear Head
 
nick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
The relevant delay is the 'round trip' latency time (2.7ms), not the 'one way' latency time (1.35ms).
Hi Jon,

If the overdub player is hearing the prerecorded tracks played back at +1.35 ms latency due to D-A conversion, then presumably the only delay that needs to be compensated for is the A-D trip back into the computer (rather than the whole D-A, A-D journey). Am i misunderstanding? I can't see how the whole "round-trip" would need to be taken into account
Old 21st August 2002
  #14
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

round trip because the delay from the convertors going out, say N ms for ease. the player hears the material N ms later than when it is actually written in the session. the player plays to it. back in the conversion adds another N ms to what he just played. the time it would be off is now 2N ms with the original tracks which havent been delayed from their original location.

however. DP seems to compensate where it places the overdubbed track [got to love non-linear based storage for digital]... nudging the track foward in time takes it out of the pocket every time i do it.
Old 21st August 2002
  #15
Gear Head
 
nick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
the time it would be off is now 2N ms
Thanks alpha - I'm used to the analog thinking that what's in the headphones is what's being played back on the recorder 'now'.

So I was thinking of the musician as the reference for the latency, rather than the DAW.

By the way - this may be a very basic 'digital audio' question, but how does DP know what the latency on any given system is, so that it can compensate?
Old 21st August 2002
  #16
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Well-put explanation, AJ.

Like Nick, I am curious if DP *knows* which converters are being used & what their delay is ... and is *auto-nudging* the takes to compensate. I'd be surprised if it is really doing that.
Old 21st August 2002
  #17
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i dunno, but i use MOTU convertors so.... im kinda curious about it myself but im not the only person who has noticed this. its even stated in their manual.

BUT if something sounds "out of the pocket" then i do shift it in time. its all about the ears.
Old 21st August 2002
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

o 4 gods sake !



now ill never sleep at night !
aaahhh
grudge
Old 22nd August 2002
  #19
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Good one, Damian!



So guys, is this really a non-issue?

Chris? Michael? Dave? You guys do digital; do you do the *nudge-nudge*?
Old 22nd August 2002
  #20
The cheery news is 96k has half the thru latency of 48k!

Hooray!



Ashley, I dont know for sure if it IS half, but it's LOWER!

heh
Old 22nd August 2002
  #21
I suppose it would be worth trying a session one time where all subsequent overdubs are nudged forward starting at a point after any Live backing tracks go down (they would be the timing reference point or the 'sample accurate ground zero'.

So Jon have YOU tried that then?

I will have to measure the through delay on my PT rig!



Lord! - Another digital strategy / work around in the making!

Thanks a bunch!





Hey Hang on!

How does that sit with production judgements made on timing & feel in the control room?

Is one to presume those desisions are 'close' and the nudged version is "closest"?

It puts me in mind of joke about a lady at a butchers picking up every chicken in the shop, opening it's legs and smelling inside the bird. The butcher asked her what she was doing and the lady replied, 'I am looking to see if the chickens are fresh! None of these chickens are fresh!' As she walked out of the butcher shop, the butcher yelled after her, "hey lady! Could YOU pass that test?"

And all I can say after that is - roll on the Right Guard and roll on 96k!

dfegad
Old 23rd August 2002
  #22
Guest
Guest
Hi everyone. New here.
Heads up! I am nice and always mean well.
I am also sarcastic to the 9's and have found this doesn't translate well in the chat enviorment.
I have been watching this board for about a year and I would like to give a big thanks to all!!!!! Esecially Jules! Lots of good stuff and all has been a big help.
I could not stop from joining when I saw this thread.
The main reason being is that I migrated from ADAT land about a year ago to PT LE. At first I was having trouble with the open-ness of my mixes. The sounds were good but I seemed to not have the depth I was used to hearing. This is not to state that ADATs have much depth but, something was amiss. On the DUC I read about the latency issue and some guy stated that the round trip out and back in was 102 samples. Well I have no idea if he was right but, I started shifting everything back 51 everytime I completed a track post the original tracks. I think this has made all the difference in the world. Maybe I am just imagining. I don't really care, it works for me.

I guess now that I am in I will be posting. Keep a grain of salt handy.


D
Old 23rd August 2002
  #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by dpasch
I have been watching this board for about a year and I would like to give a big thanks to all!!!!!
Gearslutz been around that long?
Old 24th August 2002
  #24
Guest
Guest
Well. This and the DUC and RAP and a few others.
Come on' cut me some slack.
to much time in a small dark room listen to mucic smokin' hogs......

You get the picture.

D
Old 24th August 2002
  #25
Gear Addict
 
RobMacki's Avatar
 

So, if I understand this theory correctly,

Track 1 = original vocal print = in time
Track 2 = overdub vocal = + 2.7 ms +/- solo
Track 3 = overdub vocal = + 2.7 ms +/- solo
Track 4 = overdub vocal = + 2.7 ms +/- solo
etc.
Track 10 = overdub vocal = + 2.7 ms +/-

So if I were to solo each previous track and talent was to overdub to previous takes each time, if the theory holds true.....are you saying,

Track 1 = Track 10 + 27 ms????
Old 24th August 2002
  #26
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

that would seem to be the case... good thing i dont track that way.

how about this...

playback through a PA system [no cans] with the musician playing 10 feet from the speakers. would that give you a 12.7ms delay where the OD was placed?
Old 24th August 2002
  #27
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

to reply to the original question : NO, I do not compensate for tracking latency, I do not nudge the tracks.

Why not ...... simple ..... it has never bothered me uptil now. Nore has it bothered anybody ever recording here at the studio. I'm quite sure that if it was that big a deal someone by now would have said ..... "hey ... I didn't lay that track down with that feel"

Not that most of them would hear a difference but I have had some heavy duty Jazz recordings where feel was all that seemed to count. You get people like Michel Hadsi and his gang, or Michel Bisceglia at the studio, it is all they worry about .... getting that vibe on there ..... I'm quite sure that either one , if bothered by it ..... would point out that what was playing back didn't have the same feel as when he played it.


BUT, all that is definately no reason to be ignorant about it..... definately gonna try the nudging trick next time I track .... see if I can hear a difference.


The only thing I compensate for is plugin delay with the time adjuster .... how ever little it is .... once a session gets a plugin .... all tracks get the timeadjuster to go with it.
Old 24th August 2002
  #28
Groan! only deal with live feel based music.....I may have to try it too!
re time adjuster I don't make all track the same just groups like drums.... I suppose I should get into it!
Old 24th August 2002
  #29
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When I do pop music, I (or sometimes an assistant) litterally goes through & time adjusts everything so it's exactly in time. Some are only 5 samples, but the producer is pretty anal so...
Old 24th August 2002
  #30
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Chris, did your jazz cats do overdubs? Most of the jazz stuff I've seen was done live.

AJ, 1 foot=1ms has been my rough rule of thumb. Most of the time I use cans (when the players are in different rooms or in one large room), or more rarely, the musicians play really close to each other in a small room.
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