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New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings Other Modular Audio Processors
Old 19th December 2010
  #1
New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings

Just bought a BAE 1073 rack w psu.
Sounds fantastic.. Blown away.
The only problem is:

2 problems .. that may be related:

first: I bought a DMP (the older version) yesterday, and used it overnight. i re-tracked drum loops and synth stuff through it at 70 (maxed out) and it did not sound fuzzy or bad. it added great color and sort of compressed the signal.. with great effect.

today i took it back, as I had decided to exchange it and upgrade to the 1073 1u w power supply.

the 1073 sounds great, but playing my synths through it at 70 or more, it starts to break and sound crackly... instead of making it sound warm and slightly compressed.

I am trying to track a bass guitar through the di input, and I am getting a LOUD white or pink noise when i have the gain set to 80 and the output is anywhere past 10 o'clock.
the same result happens with the gain at 75 and the output at 2 o'clock or more.. only the white noise is louder and when adjusting the output anywhere past 2 o'clock, i hear a radio frequency type sound within the white noise.

if i switch on the EQ section the noise goes away in both scenarios.

This also happens with nothing plugged in to the DI

Any one out there come across this?

Mark at BAE has replied saying that he has not had any similar enquiries before, and that he would test a module.
Old 19th December 2010
  #2
BAE 1073 DI GAIN TEST 75 output sweep#02.aif

BAE 1073 DI GAIN TEST 80 output sweep#01.aif

these are set at 80 and 75 gain settings, and the output knob sweeping form 0 to max and back to zero.


the first file has the gain setting at 75. while sweeping the output knob the noise really kicks in at around 2 o'clock.

the second file has the gain setting at 80. while sweeping the output knob the noise really kicks in at around 10 o'clock.


i don't have to use the gain this loud, but i just want to make sure that if this is actually a problem, i catch it now rather than later
Old 19th December 2010
  #3
New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings

Pic of unit
Attached Thumbnails
New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings-imageuploadedbygearslutz.jpg  
Old 20th December 2010
  #4
Gear Head
 

Hi Rob.
i would get a male xlr with pins 2 and 3 shorted together and plug that into your 1073 instead. Try the 75 or 80dB setting, and if you now only have hiss down in the -50's, the unit is fine. Your symptom sounds like RF burst, and you should check your grounding, and whether you are using a proper balanced unit feeding the 1073.

One comment though- have you asked yourself why you are needing so much gain?
Old 20th December 2010
  #5
Gear Head
 

Oh-scrap my last comment-just re-read your postings.
Too tired!zzzzzzzzz
Old 20th December 2010
  #6
Output gain sweeps (min to max and back) of a BAE1073MPF (first sweep @1200ohms; second @300): filter @30Hz, gain @70dB.

The file is 44.1/16 (no dither); AD using Sound Devices 702 with 22dB of gain added:
bae nfloor.wav

This is at the same settings but with the DI switch on: bae nfloor di.wav

Hope this helps.
Old 20th December 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Output gain sweeps (min to max and back) of a BAE1073MPF (first sweep @1200ohms; second @300): filter @30Hz, gain @70dB.

The file is 44.1/16 (no dither); AD using Sound Devices 702 with 22dB of gain added:
Attachment 209976

This is at the same settings but with the DI switch on: Attachment 209987

Hope this helps.
thanks,
I had the DMP, which didn't have any sudden noise jumps, and also did not break up with the gain at 70.. sounded like your audio clips.
Old 21st December 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Hi

I may have misunderstood what you are trying to do but....

It begs the question, why are you driving a line level synth signal into a mic pre at 70dB gain?

To do this you must have the output pot set seriously low...

So you are grossly over-driving the pre stage and the results would be unpredictable.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to do?

Old 21st December 2010
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

I may have misunderstood what you are trying to do but....

It begs the question, why are you driving a line level synth signal into a mic pre at 70dB gain?

To do this you must have the output pot set seriously low...

So you are grossly over-driving the pre stage and the results would be unpredictable.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to do?

I am recording into an apogee duet.
I switched the setting on the duet to -10dbv and i no longer have to drive the input gain so hard, and the output does not need to be very high either.

but after using the +4dbu setting and discovering that at those levels even with nothing plugged into the DI input, theres a loud jump in noise at certain output levels, it makes me think that something might not be working properly.

on a side note,
I am not an expert in the differences with balanced/unblanaced/line level/DI connections, but are you saying that i should be connecting my analog synths into the XLR line in on the back of the unit instead of the 1/4" DI input on the front?
Old 21st December 2010
  #10
Gear Head
 
elladoizquierdo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Viking View Post
I am not an expert in the differences with balanced/unblanaced/line level/DI connections, but are you saying that i should be connecting my analog synths into the XLR line in on the back of the unit instead of the 1/4" DI input on the front?
I think what he is trying to say is that it is not normal that you should apply 70dbs of gain on the DI input in order to get a proper recording level on your synth. The output of the instrument should be too low. Try to increase the output level on the instrument, there should be an output gain or something similar...
Old 21st December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
CJ1973's Avatar
 

I have the DPA1073.. similar..and alot of synths.
Get a JDI Radial Stereo DI.. fantastic. Hook up your synths into that first. Then from there, go into the BAEs XLR inputs. Try and borrow and JDI first and try this to see if this fixes everything.

With the 1/4" line levels, I have noticed similar in terms of distortion and hiss/noise. Sucks
Old 21st December 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elladoizquierdo View Post
I think what he is trying to say is that it is not normal that you should apply 70dbs of gain on the DI input in order to get a proper recording level on your synth. The output of the instrument should be too low. Try to increase the output level on the instrument, there should be an output gain or something similar...
Hi

Yes, that's exactly what I was concerned about.

With pre amps... any pre amp... you should have the output pot at maximum and bring up the stepped input gain to achieve the right output level.

If you had 70dB gain on a line level input, you would be murdering the headroom on the preamp.

Keep the output pot as high as possible. If a log law/audio taper it would be 20dB down at half rotation. If you assumed the headroom on the system was 26dB, you would have to crank the pre up another 20dB to make up the loss in the output pot and your headroom would drop proportionately.

Just make sure that these issues are not finger trouble.

heh
Old 22nd December 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings

And get a Lavry converter while you're at it
Old 22nd December 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post

With pre amps... any pre amp... you should have the output pot at maximum and bring up the stepped input gain to achieve the right output level.
I always have the output of the synth as high as possible..

are you saying crank the output pot of the 1073 and adjust the input gain accordingly?
Old 22nd December 2010
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
I have the DPA1073.. similar..and alot of synths.
Get a JDI Radial Stereo DI.. fantastic. Hook up your synths into that first. Then from there, go into the BAEs XLR inputs. Try and borrow and JDI first and try this to see if this fixes everything.

With the 1/4" line levels, I have noticed similar in terms of distortion and hiss/noise. Sucks
There is a DI input on mine, you are saying do not use the DI input on the 1073, instead use a DI box like the JDI radial into the XLR line in?

if so, what is the point in having the DI input?
Old 22nd December 2010
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Viking View Post
I always have the output of the synth as high as possible..

are you saying crank the output pot of the 1073 and adjust the input gain accordingly?
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. Set the output knob to max and leave it there. It is my understanding that the knob only attenuates anyway, it doesn't boost at all, as Geoff describes.

A 1073 in a console doesn't have a volume output knob and would be the equivalent to leaving your output knob all the way up. All the way up should be unity.

So turn the preamp input knob (the one that's detented and clicks) all the way down to "off" which should be around "4 oclock" on the dial. Turn the output knob all the way up. Then start clicking the preamp input up one step at a time until you get a desired level.

Also be aware that the line input isn't supposed to be turned up to +80dB. If you look at the dial, on the right side it says "line" and goes from -20dB down to +10. Then there is an "off" selection. From that "off" over to the left (clockwise direction) you are now in mic preamp territory. And you can see it goes from -20 up to 50 then there is a second "off" selection. then from 55 up to 80 you are in the "high gain" range usually reserved for low output microphones like vintage ribbon mics.

So to me, it sounds like you are not using the device as it was designed to be used for your specific application. You shouldn't need to be turning a DI signal up past 50. And if you plug it into the line inputs on the back (not the mic inputs, there should be separate line inputs if memory serves me correctly), you shouldn't need to turn it up past 0 or +10. Turn the output knob all the way up and leave it there and everything else should fall into place (hopefully!)

Also, the output of the 1073 is +4dBu. Make sure your interface is set to that as well. Otherwise, with the volume knob all the way up, you will distort the input of your interface at -10dBV pretty easily. At +4dBu it shouldn't distort.

Technically speaking, you are better off probably plugging your keyboards into the line inputs in the back. The DI input attenuates the line level signal down to mic level inside the 1073 and then feeds the signal to the mic preamp (no different than using a JDI or Whirlwind DI box), which then amplifies it back up to line level. Cut out the middle man and just plug the keyboard in the back. You'll probably like the sound better anyway.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #17
New BAE 1073 - 75/80 gain settings add harsh noise at higher output settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. Set the output knob to max and leave it there. It is my understanding that the knob only attenuates anyway, it doesn't boost at all, as Geoff describes.

A 1073 in a console doesn't have a volume output knob and would be the equivalent to leaving your output knob all the way up. All the way up should be unity.

So turn the preamp input knob (the one that's detented and clicks) all the way down to "off" which should be around "4 oclock" on the dial. Turn the output knob all the way up. Then start clicking the preamp input up one step at a time until you get a desired level.

Also be aware that the line input isn't supposed to be turned up to +80dB. If you look at the dial, on the right side it says "line" and goes from -20dB down to +10. Then there is an "off" selection. From that "off" over to the left (clockwise direction) you are now in mic preamp territory. And you can see it goes from -20 up to 50 then there is a second "off" selection. then from 55 up to 80 you are in the "high gain" range usually reserved for low output microphones like vintage ribbon mics.

So to me, it sounds like you are not using the device as it was designed to be used for your specific application. You shouldn't need to be turning a DI signal up past 50. And if you plug it into the line inputs on the back (not the mic inputs, there should be separate line inputs if memory serves me correctly), you shouldn't need to turn it up past 0 or +10. Turn the output knob all the way up and leave it there and everything else should fall into place (hopefully!)

Also, the output of the 1073 is +4dBu. Make sure your interface is set to that as well. Otherwise, with the volume knob all the way up, you will distort the input of your interface at -10dBV pretty easily. At +4dBu it shouldn't distort.

Technically speaking, you are better off probably plugging your keyboards into the line inputs in the back. The DI input attenuates the line level signal down to mic level inside the 1073 and then feeds the signal to the mic preamp (no different than using a JDI or Whirlwind DI box), which then amplifies it back up to line level. Cut out the middle man and just plug the keyboard in the back. You'll probably like the sound better anyway.
Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
Good to have the confidence of knowing how to get the most out of this pre!
Old 22nd December 2010
  #18
Lives for gear
 
E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

I saw you also were asking similar question (pertaining to noise) in this thread, which I answered: bae 1073 mpf, users please a feedback regarding noise floor

Keyboards and synths also don't sound their best with volume at max. I've found that about 3/4 of the way or 80% is the sweet spot for most of them.

+2 for using the line inputs in the back of the pre and yes, the output is an attenuator. Just leave it at max and tweak input as suggested.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #19
Lives for gear
 
latestflavor's Avatar
 

aside from common gain staging issues, i find a lot of people incorrectly using balanced cables from keyboard/synth to AD or preamp.

This is of course going to give you huge gain and sound problems when plugged in correctly.

Double check that you have unbalanced cables from synth to pre or A/D.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #20
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by latestflavor View Post
aside from common gain staging issues, i find a lot of people incorrectly using balanced cables from keyboard/synth to AD or preamp.

This is of course going to give you huge gain and sound problems when plugged in correctly.

Double check that you have unbalanced cables from synth to pre or A/D.
Truth!
Old 22nd December 2010
  #21
invaluable. thanks to everyone.
Old 17th October 2011
  #22
Gear Head
 

Fabulous. Thanks for sharing these powerful hints.
Old 17th October 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by blakeyboy View Post
One comment though- have you asked yourself why you are needing so much gain?
Because I like it is an answer? To me yes.

Sorry I came in, I don't have a BAE, I have a Vintech and I totally love how it sounds at 70 or so, I keep the output level very low (usually under 9 o'clock) but the pre as high as I can when I'm processing softsynths or synths in general... but sometimes also bass guitar, guitar or other things

Depends to what I'm looking for and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

Yes, that's exactly what I was concerned about.

With pre amps... any pre amp... you should have the output pot at maximum and bring up the stepped input gain to achieve the right output level.

If you had 70dB gain on a line level input, you would be murdering the headroom on the preamp.
I don't like dogma

If I'm processing a kick that tends to lose some bottom end, some transient in the bottom end, and if I want totally clean lows, I can also process at 30, but if I want that effect the Vintech gives me at 70... why shouldn't I use it?

It sounds immediately classic vintage, or overdriven... and if you hear the Beatles and many other bands, you hear exactly that sound (for example in a bass guitar)

If the OP has tested his BAE and the BAE told him it is not normal, he should send it to BAE or ask for a refund, or another unit.

With synths, almost every people I know, use preamps in exactly the same way.. to add some unpredictable behavior to their synths.. and some fatness.. compression
Old 11th November 2011
  #24
RiF
Lives for gear
 
RiF's Avatar
I aquired a BAE 1073MP recently and I am concerned about the correct usage as well. With an LDC mic in front, I found myself driving the input pretty hard (say 50) and I keep the output pretty low (9 o'clock). This might be a bit much, but I can hear some nice saturation and distortion going on. A quick test revealed that if I dial down the input, the signal gets clearer (and more boring, so to speak).
The input gain is used to drive (and OVERdrive) the unit and controls - besides level - the color of the sound, right? The output knob just attenuates the level without changing anything more, correct?

Am I hearing things?
Old 11th November 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 
latestflavor's Avatar
 

yep, thats correct. the input is your color (to a point)
Old 11th November 2011
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiF View Post
I aquired a BAE 1073MP recently and I am concerned about the correct usage as well. With an LDC mic in front, I found myself driving the input pretty hard (say 50) and I keep the output pretty low (9 o'clock). This might be a bit much, but I can hear some nice saturation and distortion going on. A quick test revealed that if I dial down the input, the signal gets clearer (and more boring, so to speak).
The input gain is used to drive (and OVERdrive) the unit and controls - besides level - the color of the sound, right? The output knob just attenuates the level without changing anything more, correct?

Am I hearing things?
To answer your question/post... read these again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

Yes, that's exactly what I was concerned about.

With pre amps... any pre amp... you should have the output pot at maximum and bring up the stepped input gain to achieve the right output level.

If you had 70dB gain on a line level input, you would be murdering the headroom on the preamp.

Keep the output pot as high as possible. If a log law/audio taper it would be 20dB down at half rotation. If you assumed the headroom on the system was 26dB, you would have to crank the pre up another 20dB to make up the loss in the output pot and your headroom would drop proportionately.

Just make sure that these issues are not finger trouble.

heh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. Set the output knob to max and leave it there. It is my understanding that the knob only attenuates anyway, it doesn't boost at all, as Geoff describes.

A 1073 in a console doesn't have a volume output knob and would be the equivalent to leaving your output knob all the way up. All the way up should be unity.

So turn the preamp input knob (the one that's detented and clicks) all the way down to "off" which should be around "4 oclock" on the dial. Turn the output knob all the way up. Then start clicking the preamp input up one step at a time until you get a desired level.

Also be aware that the line input isn't supposed to be turned up to +80dB. If you look at the dial, on the right side it says "line" and goes from -20dB down to +10. Then there is an "off" selection. From that "off" over to the left (clockwise direction) you are now in mic preamp territory. And you can see it goes from -20 up to 50 then there is a second "off" selection. then from 55 up to 80 you are in the "high gain" range usually reserved for low output microphones like vintage ribbon mics.

So to me, it sounds like you are not using the device as it was designed to be used for your specific application. You shouldn't need to be turning a DI signal up past 50. And if you plug it into the line inputs on the back (not the mic inputs, there should be separate line inputs if memory serves me correctly), you shouldn't need to turn it up past 0 or +10. Turn the output knob all the way up and leave it there and everything else should fall into place (hopefully!)

Also, the output of the 1073 is +4dBu. Make sure your interface is set to that as well. Otherwise, with the volume knob all the way up, you will distort the input of your interface at -10dBV pretty easily. At +4dBu it shouldn't distort.

Technically speaking, you are better off probably plugging your keyboards into the line inputs in the back. The DI input attenuates the line level signal down to mic level inside the 1073 and then feeds the signal to the mic preamp (no different than using a JDI or Whirlwind DI box), which then amplifies it back up to line level. Cut out the middle man and just plug the keyboard in the back. You'll probably like the sound better anyway.
Old 13th November 2011
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Hi

With synths or any ac powered source with an unbalanced output, I always recommend connecting to the XLR/transformer input putting the hot to pin 2, shield to pin 3, and leave pin 1 high.

That way the transformer takes out any ground loop issues you might get with an unbalanced DI input (unless that input also has a transformer, in which case ignore the hint!)

Plus I have no idea why anyone would use a +80 dB (1/10th of a millivolt sensitivity) on a source that might be tens or even hundreds of millivolts.... Meaning the output level pot has to be turned back.... Meaning sod all input headroom.

Just my 2c via my iphone
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