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Why shouldn't I get a Royer 121? Ribbon Microphones
Old 3rd December 2010
  #61
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Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Pederson View Post
For you experienced guys out there obviously you are looking to pull the faders up and already have your basic mix (soundwise)

For less experienced folks like me, I would rather record a huge sounding guitar track, and then just dial in a HPF during the mix.

At least then you wont end up tracking a wimpy guitar track and being dissapointed that its not "huge" anymore
your not alone on this one. trimming the fat is a lot easier than adding it.in fact, i've never been able to add girth effectively to a wimpy track. gimme all ballz off the hop, anyday.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #62
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Pederson View Post
For you experienced guys out there obviously you are looking to pull the faders up and already have your basic mix (soundwise)

For less experienced folks like me, I would rather record a huge sounding guitar track, and then just dial in a HPF during the mix.

At least then you wont end up tracking a wimpy guitar track and being dissapointed that its not "huge" anymore

At least you are honest...even if you are letting a real nugget of good info whiz right by you.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #63
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Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
At least you are honest...even if you are letting a real nugget of good info whiz right by you.
if it whizzed by him then it whizzed by my too, and i didn't hear the distinctive whizzing sound. not everyone approaches this stuff the same, so not everyone reaches down to pickup the nuggets. one mans rock is another mans gem.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #64
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
if it whizzed by him then it whizzed by my too, and i didn't hear the distinctive whizzing sound. not everyone approaches this stuff the same, so not everyone reaches down to pickup the nuggets. one mans rock is another mans gem.

You know what?

That's a bunch of bull****. When a guy like RCM gives you a little something, you should listen...not because he's better than us...just that he's made some really good records and has good expereince.

First off I sure he didn't say anything about cutting off the balls of a particular instrument when tracking....he simply stated that guitars will generally end up sounding smaller in isolation in the context of a mix.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #65
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Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyC View Post
You know what?

That's a bunch of bull****. When a guy like RCM gives you a little something, you should listen...not because he's better than us...just that he's made some really good records and has good expereince.

First off I sure he didn't say anything about cutting off the balls of a particular instrument when tracking....he simply stated that guitars will generally end up sounding smaller in isolation in the context of a mix.
you know what? relax...

i respect rcm's posts, a lot. one of my fave posters as a matter of fact. i just happened to agree with the cat that you felt missed something. if he's like me, he missed nothing. thanks
Old 3rd December 2010
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
you know what? relax...

i respect rcm's posts, a lot. one of my fave posters as a matter of fact. i just happened to agree with the cat that you felt missed something. if he's like me, he missed nothing. thanks

yeah you're right...make it huge and add a highpass when mixing
Old 3rd December 2010
  #67
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Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Why shouldn't I get a Royer 121?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw
sonically superior to 121 but can't handle the spl like 121
The m160 is no slacker but for me the 121 has a more full and even response.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #68
Gear Head
 

good morning,

....to end the "hugeness" part of this thread: With "huge" I meant the full tonal range of my guitar sound, not some "maximised-bigger-than-life" sound that kicks out every other instrument in the mix. And I guess this is, what Eric meant, too.

Maby I chose the wrong words. But I'm a poor ass amateur and might still be wrong .
Most of the time for ME a little high-pass and a slight push @ 3kHz works out to a point, where I can live with my sound. There are not a lot of other instruments in MY arrangement (I'm recording my own stuff, I'm not an engeneer), that have to fight with the guitars.

however, I'm glad about any advice from everybody in this forum and especially from guys like Ronan, as I watch pretty much every episode of his Recording Show to educate myself.

I'll probably record some tunes this weekend and post them in another thread with a link in this one, so you guys can start bashing them and tell me my guitars are too "tiny" or "huge" ore just straight "suck" .
Maby after that, most responses will say "you don't need another microphone, you need a couple of years of recording school" and then post about gear, again.

Old 3rd December 2010
  #69
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai-fish View Post
@ BradLyons



Does this mean, ribbons in general might be a better choice for overhead-miking as SDCs, if the room I'm recording in is not great sounding? Mine, for example is somewhat small but treated with absorbtion (ceilling/partially walls) and diffusors but far from being a great drum room.

Sorry if I'm asking and almost highjacking my own thread, but I'm a sorry amateur and I'm always trying to learn.

And then, might this be a point to get two M160 instead of one R121, so I could use 'em for both, amp and drumkit?!

thanx in advance.
Well rooms ARE important......I'm saying that you don't have to have a high end space to use them. BUT as long as the acoustics are controlled well, remember you're recording the kit here. The thing to keep in mind is that there really are two schools of thought when recording drums.....those that want a big lively room and those that want a tighter, more controlled space. Personally I like the later.

There's nothing wrong with the Beyer M160's---these are VERY good mics! Do I prefer them over Royer's? No, but that doesn't mean I don't like them or find them useful. As you can read by other posts, many others love them. My favorite feature of the M160's is the fact that they are so freaking small, I love that when using them live. In the studio, who cares.... BUT what makes them nice for me in the studio is using on Hi Hat or Ride (speaking of drums) because of their directionality.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #70
Gear Head
 

@ Bradlyons

thank you for the response, I have yet to try out recording a drumset in my space, after I treated it. before that, it was unusable due to horrific acoustics. I always thought it wasn't lively enough for drums after treatment, but I'll try to remove some absorbers and switch them for reflective wooden surfaces. And I think I can live with a thight sound as I mostly record straight rock.
right now I use EZ Drummer and record everything else live.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #71
Gear Addict
 

A couple of questions for Hai-Fish.

Do you own many mics already? Do you already own any stereo pairs? Do you own any ribbon mics at present?
Old 3rd December 2010
  #72
Hi everyone!

To the Op:

For Ribbons I have two Royer 121 and 2 Coles 4038 in the locker and more often then not I mic guitars with 2 Sm57 or a 57 and a 421.... I'm doing mostly rock.

While the royers sounds sweet, natural and full, I think i doesn't give me that girth we are used to hear on crunch/dist. guitars. You can eq them, but they stay somehow too gentle for me.

Clean guitars- yummy! but rock? in combi with a 57 they are good, different but not "better" than 421, 609, (but Michael Wagener is of different opinion .-so what do I know?..)

A few years ago I was in a similar state of mind as you are now regarding the "bigness" of guitars.. I disliked the 57 because its a middy, scratchy mess and it seemed thin.

Now I think If you dialed a good sound on the amp , a 57 or two (or 421) of them in the right placement just works best for me at the moment.

I think, the bigness of the guitars is in fact often the bass guitar.. :-)

and I'm sorry to tell you that the Royer is my favorite Mic on bass cabs.. (30-100 cm in front.), but thats a different story...

So if you want the Royer mainly for guitars, then I'd say there are cheaper and equally "good" (whatever that means..) alternatives.. but I'm not a pro yet.. so in the end.. Its best to try it for yourself..

Cheers,
Jens
Old 3rd December 2010
  #73
Gear Head
 

@Wlouch:

As of right now I own:
- CAD E-350
- AT 4050
- 2x SM 57
- E-906

I do not have a stereo pair, but got the Beyer Mc930 on my list....or maby the M160?

@ Jens Siefert

Danke. Ich seh' grad, dass wir fast in der gleichen Kante wohnen....Grüsse nach Mannheim.

btw. ich hab das E-906 und mag's ehrlich gesagt garnicht.

Alex.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #74
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Aaron Miller's Avatar
I have never seen R-121's "biggness" factor as a reason for preferring them on electric guitar (drum overheads or room mic is another story). Rather, I see two advantages: (1) a very smooth mid and upper mid range combined with some gentle high end roll off and (2) the perfect amout of room ambience when the mic is positioned optimally on a cab. The second one is pretty important for me because with mics like 57s, 421s, SM7Bs, etc., I'm always forced into making trade-offs between ideal positioning for tone vs. ideal positioning for the amount of room I want in the mix. The 121 seems to have a combination of frequency responce (1) and pickup pattern (2) that lends itself to easy cab mic'ing.
Old 3rd December 2010
  #75
Why shouldn't you TRY a Royer 121?
Old 4th December 2010
  #76
Gear Addict
 
amanitas's Avatar
My experience - 121 is great, smooth hi-fi sounding ribbon mic. Reasons I have reached for another:

1) RCA 44 (or really any other RCA) is available. The superiority of these mics has been confirmed for me vs. all other ribbons in multiple informal pre-session shootouts with different engineers and rooms and studios - every time I've ever done a session and an RCA has been available (granted one in good working condition) it has ended up being chosen over all other ribbons, often after a quick A/B/C but usually before. I can only assume this would hold for guitar cab as well as horns.

2) If it sounds too smooth. This has happened to me at sessions before: we do a bunch of chorale brass paddy stuff and the royer sounds fantastic. Then we go to record a sizzling salsa type trumpet solo and all of the sudden it sounds small and lacking in balls. M160 is a better mic for this purpose - it manages to tame the highs without losing as much bite on the sound. This may or may not be of interest to you for guitar cab as you probably get enough bite from the 57, but if you are only going to use one mic and want to get a lot of bite or aggression in the sound, that's a reason I wouldn't go for the Royer.

3) Coles 4038 is available. This is more of a personal preference of mine, I feel like the Coles is a little beefier sounding in the low mids.

4) The money makes a big difference. Fatheads are great and they cost roughly 1/10 the price of a 121.

But yah if you are looking for a mic to do smooth refined polished ribbon thing, Royer is pretty hard to beat.

If you check out the horns on Built To Spill's latest record, There Is No Enemy, that was all done with Royers, 121 if my memory serves me correctly...
Old 4th December 2010
  #77
Gear Addict
 

Hai-Fish, looking at your current mic locker, I would aim for a pair of M160s. Simply because you get TWO mics, and TWO very good mics at that. When first starting out a mic locker I would choose quantity over quality. When I say that, I make it sound like these Beyers are 10 for a £. They are far from that, they are top quality studio mics. Extremely versatile, and you have TWO of them. Get a couple more years under your belt with the Beyers and your locker as it is, then decide whether you need a Royer, my guess is probably not.

You will more than likely want a pair of LDCs or a quality dynamic such as a 421.
Old 6th December 2010
  #78
Gear Nut
 
arasandvolodkas's Avatar
 

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet, but if you plan to track drums and the guitar amp live in the same room, the royer isn't a good way to go unless if you can find a way to really isolate the drums from the guitar.

I would also like to add however, that I agree for clean guitars it smokes, sounds great on vibes too. I'm not sure if you saw it, but I did a shootout with the royer and some other nice mics:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-...oyer-kiwi.html

in all tests except for the ambient it would have been my preferred mic.
Old 9th December 2010
  #79
Gear Head
 

Ok, as promised, I just recorded some tunes, using my current mikes (SM 57, E906 and AT 4050). I thought, a ribbon would be a nice addition to it.
Btw. the amp used was an Orange Tiny Terror. To compensate for the bedroomlevel I have to record with at the moment, I added a Menatone KarKrash....kinda beefs it up a little.

The main Rhthm Guitar on the right was tracked through the three above mentioned Mikes, the left Rythm Guitar and the Melody Guitar, was recorded, only using the 57.

Fell free to bash this recording, it will only benefit my sorry amateur ass.

Thanx Alex.
Attached Files
Old 29th September 2014
  #80
I have a 121 in my studio now and I am trying to decide if its worth keeping (due to the price).

Comments about it being creamy and smooth on guitar amps is true. But it lacks the punch and attack we are so used to hearing on recordings. On clean channel of guitar amps it sounds great and there is no issue. For rock with amps that have a smooth distortion, I prefer it combined with an I5. On guitar amps that are s***** or have a grating sound, the 121 is perfect on its own.

Granted most have no issues with spending $1,200 on a vocal mic, but many have a harder time spending the same money on a guitar amp mic especially since most mic's used with amps have been below $450. I agree the cheaper ribbon mic's like Fatheads sound decent but when you add EQ and compression they don't sound as good or flexilble as much as the 121.

Some times you want the guitar to have an attack and the 121 smooths it out too much. So either combined with a I5 or an i5 with another dynamic or condenser mic is the way to go.
Old 22nd April 2018
  #81
Here for the gear
 

Interesting
I’m tempted to get a Royer 121
I have 80 vintage amps and Dumbles etc, several good mics but looking for good Mayall 60’s gtr sound for one trk. I have a proper ‘Bluesbraker’ amp. Will it take me closer, soundwise?
Old 22nd April 2018
  #82
Gear Head
 

Check out the SE VR1 Ribbon mic for a more budget-friendly option. Been happy with mine in tandem with a 57 or 421 on mic’d up cabs, doing everything from clean jazz to fuzzy grungey thick gritty guitars. Can handle high SPL’s, takes eq well though usually not much needed. They’re very cost effective and a bang for the buck as far as ribbons go.
Old 22nd April 2018
  #83
Gear Addict
 
outUVphaze's Avatar
 

Here's a negative or perhaps a lukewarm regarding the 121.


The 121 is not the be all and end all of "ribbon" microphones. It's a modern ribbon if I can loosely classify it as such. More hi fi than anything that I would classically refer to as a ribbon. It's also a tad thin at times.

It's not an AEA.

Now the AEA 44 ... That's a ribbon mic! It's not really fair for me to compare those two... BUT....

Since we are on the ribbon rant, I'll give myself permission to rant.

The 121 is an ok microphone.

I can live without it and do just as well with a variety of other mics.

I use it as an add on mic for guitar cabs. Occasionally a horn, but again 'my ear' likes the AEA products.

In terms of personal preference (apples and oranges here) I will go for the chocolate richness of AEA any day.

It's a matter of personal taste and how to like to capture sound.

Were you to say to me... I take all of your 121's or your 57's.
I'd say that I''l keep the 57's thank you.

Try 2 44's on a grand piano and try 2 121's....

It's not the application for a 121, to my ears.

My personal prejudice is to love everything that Wes Dooley touches and remain lukewarm to Royer.

My word of reference for Royer = Underwhelming.

I've got my shield up and I'm ready for the tomato toss and lettuce rainfall.

Last edited by outUVphaze; 23rd April 2018 at 12:58 AM..
Old 29th April 2018
  #84
Gear Addict
 

I've been playing guitar since I saw the Beatles on Sullivan and have been recording them since the late 70's. I wish I could go back and re-record every single guitar track I ever recorded prior to finding the 121's over a decade ago. There are several mic's that will make a great guitar sound, the 121 and 122 are the only mic's I've found that "feel" like great guitar sound.

That said, they rarely work for me by themselves. There's a reason everyone pairs them with a 57 - that combination blended to taste works 100% of the time for every guitar, every amp and every genre of music.
Old 29th April 2018
  #85
Gear Addict
 

sold mine long time ago

I sold my pair of royers years ago and don't miss them.

I have a Beyer m560dx (stephen sank modified)

It has the best sound for guitars and sounds great on anything else. My desert island microphone.

I love ribbons. Never loved the royers.
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