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Old 19th August 2002
  #31
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

It's interesting to see that even with a limitless budget some of you would be mixing in a DAW.
Old 19th August 2002
  #32
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
It's interesting to see that even with a limitless budget some of you would be mixing in a DAW.
In my case, at least, it's because (A) I know it better than any other format, (B) it's already here, and (C) If Bob O does the mastering on this limitless budget project, we have a history of working this way. I wouldn't want to have to read manuals when I want to just be mixing...
Old 19th August 2002
  #33
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by planet red
As for backup.... I dont know, I'd get someone else to do it, since this is our dream gig.
dont you know it.... i need to find me a backup bitch [um, i mean intern]
Old 20th August 2002
  #34
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

It's all about Mezzo. Drag the project over, click 2 buttons, go home and let your assistant label the tape. No brainer.
Old 20th August 2002
  #35
"It's interesting to see that even with a limitless budget some of you would be mixing in a DAW"

I have been giving this some thought,

I have spent the last few days tinkering with 2 mixes, and taking breaks and doing other stuff. + an assistant and a PT editor have been taking shots at the material on the main rig and on a secondary PT rig. (tuning & finessing drop in points)

I like to tweak over time. I am done with the one shot aspect of mixing in commercial studios, but I see thier appeal to some folks.

I think mine is a relativly new approach to mixing, (or one that used to be limited to private studio owners)

Try as you may to claim that your style of studio is the only way to fly for hit records I will disagree untill the sun rises. I bet producers like Lindsey Buckingham from Fleetwood Mac and Brian Wilson plus countless other were only able to develop their hit sound 'chops' by having their OWN studio to use round the clock with no charge and thats what DAWS have brought to the music 'masses'.

As you can see from the other poll, capturing interesting 'accoutic spaces' unlimited by the ones on offer at commercial facilities also appeals to many..

(and today at least mixing at home seems to be in the lead)

It's wide open and - ALL GOOD! For you and for others.

BTW I was trying to sell some time in your studio to a friend of mine yesterday!

Old 20th August 2002
  #36
Lives for gear
 

Yeah, for me I'd use a DAW because its what I'm used to... not necessarily because its the best sounding tool.

For me personally, I can get a better sound out of a PT setup then a 2" machine, because I know PT well and have very limited expierence with a tape machine.

But for the records I like always seem to be recorded to 2 inch tape, so I do think it is superior to PT 'sonically', just not for me.

I still am going to pick up a 2" 16 track at some point to record basic tracks to. I'm sure once I get used to the format I'll hate transfering it to digital. But for now, I'm way more comfortable in PT.
Old 20th August 2002
  #37
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Guys,

With a *limitless budget*, one could rent a good number of various studios and locations, including several rooms at the same time...learn new formats/consoles...experiment, try new things...hire the world's best mixers to collaborate with/learn from/mentor under...and work without counting the hours/days/months.

Wouldn't that be more fun than just DAWing it or 'tooling it at home?

Personally, I would definitely NOT do a *limitless budget* project all at my place...much as I like it here, hell, I'm in every day already as it is.

Jules, thanks for talking up our place! Hope to see you in one of these days!

Jon
Old 20th August 2002
  #38
How about getting andy wallace to mic but wearing special gloves connected to a computer to recall his tweak methods, and with a micro camera rig to record his every move?

Same for all the big time fat cigar 'private' mixers.


TLA & CLA

Also I would finance Fletcher to get the Jimmy Miller Story written up with a co -journalist editor of his choice.
Old 21st August 2002
  #39
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Wouldn't that be more fun than just DAWing it or 'tooling it at home?
well fortunately DAWs arent limited to being stationary devices like the boat anchor desks and tape decks [sure you could move the tape deck around... nah]

i would certainly be on the quest for great rooms with great views. i wouldnt want to be in a "cave" for the whole project. maybe even some outdoor recording
Old 21st August 2002
  #40
Gear Head
 

Nobody seems to prefer mixing on a vintage Neve. Is there a particular reason for that, certain flaws or shortcomings, or is it just that there are better sounding and/or more convinient options? I'm really curious.

Predrag
Old 21st August 2002
  #41
One reason might be the broad band of the eq being unsuited for final 'sonic sculpting' of the sound.

SSL's from the beginning had a rep for being good at catching little bits you missed at tracking with narrow bandwidth..

I think folks like a first fitting on a neve then a final nip and tuck on an SSL.

But many folks do mix on them I belive...

Perhaps if its well recorded Neves will do ya fine, but if MAJOR surgery is required, then.... SSL can do the best job. (or an Amec 9098 I would geuss)
Old 21st August 2002
  #42
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk


well fortunately DAWs arent limited to being stationary devices like the boat anchor desks and tape decks [sure you could move the tape deck around... nah]


Sure, DAWs can sound like ass everywhere you take them!

(Couldn't resist)



A tape isn't much heavier to carry around than a hard drive....and any decent rental company will deliver a tape machine to your door if you're within an hour or two drive from them.

For folks who don't dig or feel comfy with analog, I'd go with a Radar24 over a DAW anyday.
Old 21st August 2002
  #43
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

um, analog can sound like ass anywhere also, just listen to steve albini. im totally diggin the way DP sounds. i think it sounds great.

oh, im laughing at the tape not much harder to carry around than a hard drive... 15 minutes per reel? come on jon... i can stick a WHOLE ALBUM on one hard drive with multiple takes.

a radar isnt going to give you anything more except use of their convertors. i think its so funny how a machine works influences its sound more than the sound of itself. a radar operates like a tape machine so it feels comfortable to the analog user which IMO influences its sound to sound "better".... kinda like the nuendo users working on that archaic mixing board they put in that shit app... limited just like analog boards with the auxes.

and p.s. i PREFER the sound of digital to analog tape. flame me... i have used both, but i like what i like.
Old 21st August 2002
  #44
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

You're right about only 15 minutes per tape. But I'd mention that when someone brings in a project on 2" to mix, it usually sounds not too bad to really good...whereas the majority of (major-label) projects that come in as a DAW project have a zillion tracks that all sound like ass and involve serious shit-shining work on the SSL to get the mix happening. I'm not kidding. The DAW stuff sucks ass when you first open it up and lay it out on the desk, then start removing all the incompetently-used plugins to get back some of the sound...when a DAW project sounds great, it is really a pleasant surprise. But by and large, the 2" projects blow them away. Sure, engineer/budget/all that are behind the diff. But it's there.

I'd take Radar over DAWs not because it operates like a tape machine (I've been using ProTools for a decade now, anyway, and it is an extremely familiar interface) but because it SOUNDS better to me. The same reason I go through the bother and cost of using analog tape. It's not just for the smell...(hey, you oughta like the smell of tape, at least).

I was a pro computer game programmer (assembly language, anyone) back in junior high & high school...made 3 games sold in the US and the UK in the early 80s that were published by Synapse and Broderbund. The computer aspect of DAWs is not a problem for me like it is for a number of engineers I see who couldn't properly deal with consolidating all the regions and files if their life depended on it.

If your ears like home-grown digital, you are lucky. Life is much easier, cheaper, and more convenient that way. But this is, after all, the high end forum...I call 'em like I see 'em! And you don't have to agree!

Old 21st August 2002
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

um, analog can sound like ass anywhere also, just listen to steve albini. .....

Agreed, even though i am an abject tapeslut.

But Steve has made some of the best albums of the 90's on 2". also made some real shockers too, but too his credit he has the ethos and stamina to stick to his guns and maintain his indie/cred profile.. but sm still not sure what that Bush album/experiment was all about?

My fave Steve jobs r:

Nirvana In Utereo.... they way they were meant to be without Andy Wallace trigerring every kik and snr hit etc etc...even though it does rock! totally bitchin drum tones....whoa!

Pixies... Surfer Rosa need we say more?


And a very new one..

Mc Clusky..... Mc Clusky do Dallas.. welsh punks that rip and roar their way though their songs with abandon and its [email protected]!!!

PEACE
Wiggy
Old 21st August 2002
  #46
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

in utero is the biggest pile of shit. no bottom and a honky midrange. its unlistenable. i have a VERY hard time that is what they REALLY sounded like. even the foo fighters albums totally kill it sonically.

it is a high end forum, and micheal wagener is one of the moderators... like to get his opinion of which format sounds better jon? tape might sound better to you, but you are not god... so your opinion is just another grain of salt. good thing there are both formats so we can all be happy and have a choice.
Old 21st August 2002
  #47
Jon

The topic title "I just gotta ask..."

Well you did, but you dont seem to dig any of the anwers that dont point directly to the type of equipment or style of facility you own.

heh
Old 21st August 2002
  #48
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
it is a high end forum, and micheal wagener is one of the moderators... like to get his opinion of which format sounds better
Well, like I mentioned above, I would still record to the Euphonix R-1, even if given a choice of any format to use. I would probably stay away from PT, just because during my whole career I have not been to a single, long ProTools session without seeing it go down in some way or another and taking the vibe with it, which took so long to built up. I dread the words coming out of the background of the control room: "What is it doing now???"

I might be in the minority, but I never liked the sound of analog tape, never could get back what I put in. Tape has too much of it's own mind for me. It IS a lot more forgiving than digital though.

I've been working with digital since the early 80s when the first 3M 32 track machines showed up in Germany and even though they had a ton of problems in the beginning, I still liked them better than 2" analog tape. The studio I was working at at the time was using those 2" 32 track Telefunken machines. The track width must have been the same as on a cassette tape. I did go back to using tape for a little while, for drums only, when the studios in LA started using the first Sony 24 track digi machines. Didn't like the sound of those, but when the first Mitsubishis came out I was back on digital and the 48 track Sonys/Studers where the sh*t after the Mitsus. This is, of course, just MY opinion, one in a million, I guess. In general, I would advise anybody to use what they get along with best and not worry about anybody elses opinion. One less thing to think about when trying to create...

I wonder if, 20 years from now, when we are all recording direct to DNA gel packs, people will long after the good old days (sound) of digital DAWs heh
Old 21st August 2002
  #49
Lives for gear
 
sonic dogg's Avatar
well if money were no object......i'd hire sir george and camp out at abbey road for a year or so...other than that i'd buy sixteen vipres and store on radar...ssl to monitor and mix....and at last i could afford to drive a 1966 cj cobra.....maybe even keep a c-12 in the glove box in case a recording breaks out some where...oh and i would scour the world for that 'perfect' sounding strat....peece
Old 21st August 2002
  #50
Gear Maniac
 

Re: I just gotta ask...

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
...if money and time were not a consideration, and you were the producer/engineer of a major project in your preferred style, today...and the label allowed you total freedom to choose...
Before getting into gear - there are a few other things that I would do with the luxury of having the free time and money,

1) I would secure a great house on a beach somewhere, I like to record in houses, that's my deal - or at least I use it to my advantage for not having my own facility. Having a great house / living enviorment that becomes one with the "studio" is a great thing, the artist in my experience feels less on the clock / off the clock - they think less about the studio and think more about the music

2) Guest musicians - I would use the budget to fly in / house friends of the band that could be there for either creative input and or backing tracks

3) extra sounds - I would like to have one room that consisted of re-amping, masses of pedals and such patched correctly, dedicated computers networked to drives full of samples - just for creative sake at the minimal, along with an assortment of general instruments and percussion toys

4) Joe Consumer Listening Party - whenever I am doubting something, I have two references I try out. One reference is the Mother and Father. They are your 50-something high middle class consumer that really only buy things such as Celine Dion to James Taylor to The Eagles Box set. To them if it's not super polished it sounds like crap, so if it sounds good to them you have things that will sound good on a ceiling speaker at a sushi bar. Needless to say I don't like to mix music with the parents due to the fact they feel that my career choice is the beginning of the end of my life, so I prefer to take reference number 2 - the Joe Consumer Listening party. I find we often listen for things In ways that the average music fan simply doesnt pay attention to, or is impacted from in a different manor. I like to get some of my friends who are huge music fans (yet are not musicians nor music biz people) to come over, partake in their party favors of choice - and then give feedback. If they can point out playing mistakes, shit needs to be re-done, and they are also a great reference for simple production (or lack thereof). I would basically have weekly Joe Consumer listening parties on weekend, and In grand style. There would need to be a few young ladies that ask " do you really know what all the buttons do?"

onto the gear:


Quote:

What tracking and mixdown formats would you use?


Tracking:

I can honestly stay that there is very little of my current tracking setup that I would not use, basically on the fact of I like to use the tools I am most familar with. I would definatly add a good chunk of the Schoeps line. M222 tube preamplifier bodies, MK41 hypercard capsules for the kit, and MK21 wide cardiod capsules for overheads or room apps. I'd also add an AEA 44 or two, along with a few 4038s to have those colors on hand. Besides the stuff I have for mics, I wouldnt really urge for much more - yet anything from the older M7 capsule family would be nice to try, along with some of the modern Soundelux stuff.

For preamps/eqs/compressors - Having 4xAPIs and 4 x telefunken v276s now, I would really like to add 2-4 of the Vintech X-73s. I would feel more comfortable with a modern as-new unit, Give me a HV-3 or Buzz Audio for the clean channels x 4 - and I'm pretty covered, mabye a UA or Pendulum for something different. For EQs, I'd like a GML just for the versatility, and contrast to the X-73 EQs. Give me a handfull of 1176s and Distressors and I am more than happy for tracking

For converters, the best I have personally heard in my opinion were the Myteks - so I would be more than happy with those for AD and DA

Mixing - In short give me my familiar platform of DP for piping out into an API Legacy.


Quote:

What media would you archive the project to at the end?


Extra ATA 7200 RPM drives, and DVD-R

I think it's very interesting to see what our dream lists are, and how we try to spread our hard earned money out to own or use a small piece of each of our no-compromise pieces in our projects...
Old 21st August 2002
  #51
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Isn't life beautifull ....... lovely weather ..... nice breakfast at Dubois Cafe in the morning ...... nice hamburger with bacon and fries at Dubois Cafe at noon ...... hmmmmm ...... tonight going to have pfff ...... maybe a lobster or 2 I guess at Dubois Cafe ...... after that ....... shoot some pool across the street from Dubois Cafe ........ yawn ...... I love this place ....... hope the Red Sox play better then last night ...... kinda screwed it up in the 8th and lost it in the 10th ....... I don't even like baseball ....... just enjoy watching it whenever I'm here .......

I love Dubois Cafe .....
Old 21st August 2002
  #52
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

forgot to reply to the subject in my vacation mood ......


hmm .... limitless budget ......


for tracking ..... go to the best possible place room acoustic wise. Have a mic placement guru as an assistant. bring in a load of avalon 2022's and some 9098's. a couple of tube tech CL1B's, some manley SLAM's to try out, some 1176's and some LA2A's ..... a 960 and a full blown TC 6000........ everything into ProTools HD at 96k with 192 ADDA's

for mixing...... go to the best possible Control room in the world ..... have a mixing guru who knows the room blind as an assistant. HUGE Genelecs as mainfields and a pair of BM15 A's ..... setup a 32 channel Pro Control in the sweet spot. Hire a rack of the best possible outboard stuff if not available with some avalon stuff, some manley stuff, a 960 and a 6000 ...... all the plugins available ......

for mastering ... bring it to gateway in Portland.


backup ...... just copy everything on an extra set of hard disks and keep them all.


sorry ... it has to be ProTools all the way .... would only go to other places for room acoustics. The rest I can have right here at home .... including the outboard.
Old 21st August 2002
  #53
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

hmmm, and the other high end moderator says... 2 out of 3 aint bad.
Old 21st August 2002
  #54
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Jules and AJ,

Guys, don't forget that I own a DAW just as both of you do...but it's important to be independent of it...It's vital, even, to not allow the gear we own blind our objectivity.

This is not a contest or a vote, and I would rather that my gear and mixes be different from yours. All that matters here is to learn, to experience, to listen critically and to decide objectively. When you are worried about justifying your gear, the learning process is compromised.

If I point out that ProStools (again, which I own) and DAWs (of which I hear many, when clients bring them in) are far from sonic nirvana, it is not tantamount to saying that you should use an SSL or Studer. I did particularly mention the Radar24, which BTW I don't own (which blows to hell the theory in Jules' last post).

All in all, I think the answers in this thread have been really great and would make for some awesome records.

On an unlimited budget, I would not stay at my own studio...would definitely try some exotic locations and soundfields. I would not work only with equipment that I already know or use...would try 2" 8-track and 1" 2-track, esoteric mic pres, do an R1 vs Radar24 shoot-out, maybe track on an old Neve, an R88, a J and a 9098, try unusual outboard gear and instruments. It would be live rock music with no outside samples or midi bullshit. And I would definitely not use ProStools or a DAW if it was possible to avoid doing so. What an adventure it would be!
Old 22nd August 2002
  #55
If you ask an open question, you must be prepared to accept the answers, even if they dont fit into your own beliefs.

Deep breath, buy a 1 inch ATR or something!

To have beliefs is good, to be incredulous that other people have different ones is irritating!

Cease!

heh
Old 22nd August 2002
  #56
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


On an unlimited budget, I would not stay at my own studio...would definitely try some exotic locations and soundfields. I would not work only with equipment that I already know or use...would try 2" 8-track and 1" 2-track, esoteric mic pres, do an R1 vs Radar24 shoot-out, maybe track on an old Neve, an R88, a J and a 9098, try unusual outboard gear and instruments. It would be live rock music with no outside samples or midi bullshit. And I would definitely not use ProStools or a DAW if it was possible to avoid doing so. What an adventure it would be!
Well, it seems as though there are a couple of diferent things happening here - on one hand, our function as engineer/producers, no matter what the budget, is to get the best sounds that we can. For me, that would be easiest in a room where the variables and things that I don't know are minimized. In other words, the room where I work every day.

On the other hand, as long as it's not my money, I'd love to spend time in Paris, London, Munich, Tokyo, or any of a dozen other cities around the world where I could indulge in my part time role as a perpetual tourist. But to make that work well, the sessions would have to either start late or end early, and have weekends off. (Why be in a new city if I don't have time to explore the restaurants, the museums, and music scene?). A Genex, a Masterlink, or an ATR 102 would be cool and all, but I can rent them here.

Or perhaps it's just that in my own room, I appear to know what I'm doing - if I were working in your room, I might seem to be a total klutz...

On the gripping hand, if someone offered me a gig in a great room in a cool city, I certainly wouldn't turn down the work. I'd simply lean on the assistants pretty heavily for a few days. But if there's an unlimited budget, I wouldn't be the guy that they'd call.

This is really one of those questions that we bat around at leisure, like. "Who is a better tactician - Hannibal or Napoleon, Rommel or Robert E.Lee?" Fun to discuss, but really not all that useful for most of us...
Old 22nd August 2002
  #57
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Jules,

Your understanding of my posts seems kind of different from what I wrote.

Dave,

Thanks for a cool post. I'd agree it's not immediately useful to sit back and imagine the possibilities. But it sure is interesting to read what we all would do if money was not a factor.

A number of the answers inspired me. It may seem like dreaming...but isn't following a dream or two what we live for? To maybe make it happen someday...while hopefully living fully the process of striving for it.

Hope yours come true.

Jon
Old 22nd August 2002
  #58
Thanks for the dreams Jon!

Peace!

Old 22nd August 2002
  #59
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


A number of the answers inspired me. It may seem like dreaming...but isn't following a dream or two what we live for? To maybe make it happen someday...while hopefully living fully the process of striving for it.

Hope yours come true.

Jon
Thanks - I'm trying my best...
Old 22nd August 2002
  #60
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

if it were unlimited budget, i would have a really nice room built on my property and use that. i got a killer view already.

then i would travel all around the world sampling rooms to use in Altiverb for mixdown [and also release a side CD containing all my room samples]

i dont know about the R1 though... its a bit more frightening it runs on windows, although the controller for it is REALLY nice. id rather just had a shitload of different convertors for DP.
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