The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Nice little video about Converters shootout. DAW Software
Old 11th January 2006
  #1
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
Nice little video about Converters shootout.

I am sure some have seen this. Some pros in the field reviewing 2 inch tape versus Radar vs Pro Tools versus Nuendo.

Way to go Radar. I would have liked to seen more tech info on what was used, but its a great start..!!

http://www.recordproduction.com/mpg-...e05-video.html
Old 11th January 2006
  #2
Gear Addict
 
drummin4christ's Avatar
 

great video. If I only had the money for Radar!!!!
Old 11th January 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
i dont get it.
how can you judge the conversion abilities of nuendo?
it is software, right?
Old 11th January 2006
  #4
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
I was once in a situation where I was able to compare the playback of a Radar multitrack to Digi 192 multitrack - in a large orchestral context - and in some ways I preferred the Radar!
Old 11th January 2006
  #5
Lives for gear
 
neve1073's Avatar
 

Radar is definitely king of the digital domain, but I don't really see why they couldn't have made just a little more of an effort to explain what equipment they were using and what their methodology was.

They went to all that trouble and neglected to mention the converters they were using for nuendo or the details of the tape machine. As someone pointed out, nuendo is software.

IMO between nuendo, protools and radar, assuming they did no editing, they are mainly comparing converters.

It's definitely a worthwhile shootout--I went to something similar here in san francisco last year at coast recorders hosted by paul stubblebine. I hope people continue to do this kind of shootout, but I hope in future the methodology is just a little more rigorous & transparant so one can evaluate the outcome better.
Old 11th January 2006
  #6
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
"but I don't really see why they couldn't have made just a little more of an effort to explain what equipment they were using and what their methodology was. "


My thoughts exactly... We need more tests...

This is good info to get out there to the masses....

I love my Radar...!
Old 11th January 2006
  #7
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaugruen7
i dont get it.
how can you judge the conversion abilities of nuendo?
it is software, right?
Exactly! I think that test was pretty useless, because they are comparing Apples and Oranges. Most of these test are only good for that particuler recording in that particular room with that particular band and those particular engineers for that particular style of music. If you really want useful information for your own situation, do it yourself. Even in that relatively small crowd of people in that test, there were a lot of different opinions, now who is right?
Old 11th January 2006
  #8
Lives for gear
 
crypticglobe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener
Exactly! I think that test was pretty useless, because they are comparing Apples and Oranges. Most of these test are only good for that particuler recording in that particular room with that particular band and those particular engineers for that particular style of music. If you really want useful information for your own situation, do it yourself. Even in that relatively small crowd of people in that test, there were a lot of different opinions, now who is right?
I COMPLETELY agree. I did an A/B just recently with my Nuendo rig and a Radar. The Nuendo rig won out big time for everyone in the room. What hardware? 2 Lynx Aurora 16's interfacing with the computer via 2 RME AES-32's. Master clock was my Universal Audio 2192.

Nuendo is software. It will give back EXACTLY what you give it. Use crappy converters... get crappy sound. Use GREAT converters... get GREAT sound.

I think Fletcher recently mentioned that in his first review of the Lynx Aurora's he found them to be right up there with Radar Nyquist converters when he had them clocked to a Big Ben.

I do think that Radars have fantastic converters. However... I am now confident I have 32 channels of i/o that's as good or better with my 2 Lynx Aurora 16's and Nuendo as my recorder.
Old 11th January 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Bishbashbosh's Avatar
 

Funny that Radar appears to come out on top in the vid. I was just talking to Ralph Salmins (who played kit on that session) about it.... He'd been intending to buy a Radar for his own studio before they did that shootout. He ended up hating the Radar!

I think what the vid does prove, is that everyone has their own preferences in sound, and that there's a lot of great gear out there which is now more affordable than ever!
Old 11th January 2006
  #10
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
I think what the vid does prove, is that everyone has their own preferences in sound, and that there's a lot of great gear out there which is now more affordable than ever!

Old 11th January 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
nukmusic's Avatar
 

They should have mixed every format to stereo and then bounced each to 192k mp3 and then campared which one was the best...............LMAO

just joking
Old 12th January 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
neve1073's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener
Exactly! I think that test was pretty useless, because they are comparing Apples and Oranges. Most of these test are only good for that particuler recording in that particular room with that particular band and those particular engineers for that particular style of music. If you really want useful information for your own situation, do it yourself. Even in that relatively small crowd of people in that test, there were a lot of different opinions, now who is right?

Tony Platt is right!

I certainly can't disagree that doing it yourself is the best way, but it's great when these events are set up cooperatively at a big studio and you can hear for yourself the results--even tho they are specific to that source and that room. Watching a streaming vid of the test is pretty useless, but it would've been useful to be there in person where I could hear it and know the conversion in nuendo and what was going on with the analog contestant.
Old 12th January 2006
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Dave Peck's Avatar
 

In my opinion, a converter should be completely neutral. Any coloration or distortion or signal alteration of any kind should be done by the other gear, not the converter. The only factor that would identify one converter as 'better' than another is - which one sounds most like the source?

Therefore, a more objective way to test converters (or any other gear that should not alter the signal) would be to start with a high-quality signal with lots of realistic sonic details that has never been digitized, and that can be played repeatedly, like a high-quality first generation analog recording using minimal stereo mic techniques and real acoustic ambience.

Pass this signal through the A/D/A chain of a converter and A/B that converter against the ANALOG SOURCE, not another converter. If the sound changes at all when you switch between direct analog signal and A/D/A through the converter, the converter is coloring the signal. The converter that does not color the signal is the 'better' converter.

A/B'ing one converter to another converter (rather than to the source) only tells you which converter you think is subjectively more pleasing, it doesn't tell you which one is more accurate (more like the source).

Dave Peck
Old 12th January 2006
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Peck
The converter that does not color the signal is the 'better' converter.
You mean like a "straight wire, no gain" sound?

Let me know when you find it. I've been listening for years for that. It sounds easy.

It's not. Even among the highest end converters, each has its own definition of "the truth."

In all my testing, I've only heard two converters that colored the signal very little. And they were my absolute favorites. On that day. Others in the room at the same time thought one sounded boring and flat.

So transparency is a moving target. One man's "transparent" is another man's "boring."

Oh, that it was as easy as you suggest.
Old 12th January 2006
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Dave Peck's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston
You mean like a "straight wire, no gain" sound?

Let me know when you find it. I've been listening for years for that. It sounds easy.

It's not. Even among the highest end converters, each has its own definition of "the truth."

In all my testing, I've only heard two converters that colored the signal very little. And they were my absolute favorites. On that day. Others in the room at the same time thought one sounded boring and flat.

So transparency is a moving target. One man's "transparent" is another man's "boring."

Oh, that it was as easy as you suggest.
Ah, but I didn't say it was easy to find a converter that doesn't color the sound. You're right, it's not. And to me, that makes it more important to compare them to the original source, rather than to each other.

I'll bet you've heard what I've heard - when you switch from the source to the converter, some will do odd things to the stereo image, some will add harshness or mess up the high end details, etc. But there are a couple that don't change the sound much at all. Like you, I would consider these the 'better' ones. If someone else finds them boring, it would mean they are not looking for a neutral converter, they prefer one that colors the sound. That's OK for them, but it's not what I want from a converter.

Dave Peck
Old 12th January 2006
  #16
Lives for gear
 
crypticglobe's Avatar
I'm with Lynn on this one. When it comes to converters, I want the closest thing to complete accuracy that I can find. If I want character.... I want it come from other gear choices (pre's, mics, console, etc).
Old 12th January 2006
  #17
Gear Nut
 

...its a shame that the convertors used for comparison weren't noted as this would obviously have a greater effect on the software's abilities,

in my (admittedly limited) experience with listening tests, there are two other factors to consider - you're going to need time to notice real difference and when testing for a group, a lot of the time you'll find that there's an element of everyone coming up with the same (or similar) conclusions -

I remember a shoot-out between different convertors and after a lot of chin scratching everyone was coming up with different descriptions of why convertor x was better than y - someone should write a book on how to describe 'better sounding audio'

I just thought it sounded better sitting down..

Steve
Old 13th January 2006
  #18
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Peck
... The only factor that would identify one converter as 'better' than another is - which one sounds most like the source?...
Dave Peck
I respectfully disagree. I would go for the converter (or other gear) that does the most for the music I record. Every unit that sound goes through, analog or digital, microphone, preamps converters, compressors, eqs and even cable, changes the sound to a degree, some more, some less. And it changes different sounds in different ways depending on the "shape" of the sound (transients, smooth etc.), so IMO everybody has to decide for themseves and for the specific music/sound they record which box is the best for that application and that style of music.

I have attended extensive, very well organized mic pre shootouts at Lynn's studio where everybody in the room, including me, agreed on a certain micpre sounding a certain way and beeing the most useful for that particular instrument. After the shootout was over, I took a few of the "key" mic pres to my studio to do some further testing and my opinion on most, if not all of the pres changed based on what I was hearing at my place that day.

That tells me that I would have to do comparisons every time I have another band in the studio to find the best gear for that session. If there is not enough time (or gear) for that, I just have to rely on experience and make the best of what I have to work with, which is not really THAT hard if the quality of the gear is at least decent.

That said, I remember times when we recorded complete albums with only the mic pres in a stock MCI 500 or used the "crappy" converters in the early Mitshubishi digital machines and 12 million people still bought the album
Old 13th January 2006
  #19
Lives for gear
 

So does anyone know what converters they used with Nuendo?
Old 13th January 2006
  #20
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Most everyone had different opinions so they are no clear cut huge differences. Having used analog mutitrack recording more than digital myself. I still find the convenience factor in digital editing VS cutting tape. Plus the track count abilities of digital and cost of analog tape make it some of the main reasons why my Studer sits relatively unused these days.
Old 13th January 2006
  #21
Lives for gear
 
neve1073's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bump Music
So does anyone know what converters they used with Nuendo?

I found out that the converters in the nuendo machine were apogee.

Although that was a crucial bit of missing info, I still think for various reasons that this video needs to be taken with a sack of salt--not as a competition with a clear universal winner.

If I understand him correctly, I think Michael Wagener is right on: test yourself and go with what works best for each project. That's a working philosophy I'm trying to live by.
Old 14th January 2006
  #22
Lives for gear
 
bcgood's Avatar
 

Heyman nice shot

Heyman, nice link that was a fun video to watch. Just like the producer said at the end we need more shootouts and tests done in this area. More double blinds with one person at a time rating and then post the results and exact set up and situation latter. All I know is that all of my favorite recordings (sonically) have been originally recorded in analouge...

bcgood
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Surfman / Newbie Audio Engineering + Production Question Zone
11
sequoia / Rap + Hip Hop Engineering and Production
1
XSergeantD / Geekslutz Forum
2
HudHudson / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
2

Forum Jump
Forum Jump