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1073 Copies
Old 8th July 2003
  #1
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1073 Copies

There seems to be alot of them out there. The Great River (actually closer to a 1272 but are working on an eq that can be inserted), the Vintech, the Chandler Limited, and then there's the rackmount ones from actual consoles and probably more. Which are closer to the originals (not the great rivers, using jensen? transformers to I guess reduce low frequency distortion), and more importantly, which sound best?
Old 8th July 2003
  #2
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🎧 15 years
Without a doubt, hands down, no comparison, the 1073's I got from Brent Averill are the best I've heard and I have heard quite a few of the "clones". Most of them aren't even close. If his 1073's are a bit out of budget, I would not hesitate to recommend his 1272's or his API's. You cannot go wrong with Brent. Give him a call.
Sean
Old 8th July 2003
  #3
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NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Re: 1073 Copies

Quote:
Originally posted by jbuntz
The Great River (actually closer to a 1272 but are working on an eq that can be inserted)

It's based on the preamp in a 1073. Just because it doesn't have an EQ does not mean it's based on a 1272.


Quote:
which are closer to the originals (not the great rivers, using jensen?

I think you are confused about Great River's product line. The NV preamp (N=e=V=e) is using Sowter transformers. Which apparently provide more coloration in themselves. Great River also makes another preamp, the MP-2MH, which uses Jensen transformers, on the input and output (or just input). This preamp is very clean sounding.

As far as who is closest to the originals. Probably the originals refurbished by a qualified tech who knows what they are doing. After that you'd just have to compare for yourself to find out which one is closest to the original, and if at that point if it even matters to you. Expectations are not always the reality. Personally I like the way Dan Kennedy has altered the original circuit, and added various options that only the select few had known about (like the loading function).

Quote:
more importantly, which sound best?

Good to hear that you are putting great sound above romanticized notions of the 'good old days'.
Old 8th July 2003
  #4
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I thought the 1272's had the same pre's as 1073's? I've been told that but I'm no expert.
Old 8th July 2003
  #5
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Also, the price on the great rivers makes them quite a bit more appealing to my credit card balance.
Old 8th July 2003
  #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbuntz
I thought the 1272's had the same pre's as 1073's? I've been told that but I'm no expert.
I believe the preamp in a 1073 is called the 1290, and it has 3 gain stages instead of 2 gain stages, like in the 1272.
Old 8th July 2003
  #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by NathanEldred
I believe the preamp in a 1073 is called the 1290, and it has 3 gain stages instead of 2 gain stages, like in the 1272.

That's what I thought, but the quote from Brent Averill's 1272 specs "Same Class A preamp as Neve 1073 equalizer/preamp modules" has me confused - again.

Old 8th July 2003
  #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac
That's what I thought, but the quote from Brent Averill's 1272 specs "Same Class A preamp as Neve 1073 equalizer/preamp modules" has me confused - again.

My guess is that he is modding 1272 amplifiers into something similar to 1290's by adding the second amplifier on the front (his 1272's actually have 70db of gain not 45, so that's probably a easy way to tell) and still calling them 1272's because that's what they are, modified line amps. And I think Brent is trying to remain authentic in his numbers. He's a lot more qualified to answer than me though.
Old 8th July 2003
  #9
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Also, why doesn't Amek seem to have nearly the respect of Neve stuff? Is it the "good ol days" disease or is it just completely different?

Vintech says the same thing about their 1272 copiess. Same pre's as their x73's.
Old 8th July 2003
  #10
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jbuntz
Also, why doesn't Amek seem to have nearly the respect of Neve stuff? Is it the "good ol days" disease or is it just completely different?
Because the Amek stuff doesn't sound as good as the vintage neve stuff, and in many cases, costs much more. That being said, the pre's in the 9098 console were my favorite thing about it.
Old 8th July 2003
  #11
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Fletcher's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jbuntz
I thought the 1272's had the same pre's as 1073's? I've been told that but I'm no expert.
No, they have the same input and output transformers but only two of the three amplifiers found in the 1073 style pre.

The main amplifier board is the B283, the additional amplifier in the 1073 in on the B284 board... which is also the amplifers for the equalizer.

Quote:
Originally posted by jbuntz
Also, why doesn't Amek seem to have nearly the respect of Neve stuff? Is it the "good ol days" disease or is it just completely different?
Something completely different. The design is different, the implentation is different, the tone is different as it the 'texture'... there is a tone and depth that the early "N word" stuff achieves that is different from his later designs... his later designs have managed to remove many of the 'imperfections' associated with the 'old stuff' while maintaining a musical, albeit IMNTLBFHO, more boring tone.

Quote:
Vintech says the same thing about their 1272 copiess. Same pre's as their x73's.
They very well may be the same pre's as their x73... any way you look at it Vintech's implementation of the original design is different from the original design.

The components are laid out differently which causes different anomolies due to the interaction of the components, the transformers while theoretically are 'made to the same specifications' sound very different than the originals.

When we were working on the Great River MP-2NV, while we started with the original "Neve (tm) drawings... we weren't trying to do an 'N word copy'.

We wanted to 'start at a point and move forward'. For close to a year we broke Sowters balls to come up with different transformers than were found in the original units... these are custom models that are not available to the general public.

The idea was to get the 'thunder' associated with a '1073' like pre... but without the 'haze'/'tonal buildup' that can often occur when using a Neve (tm) module on a whole bunch of tracks within the context of a project.

Dan also made changes in things like the main tranistor... and a couple other things here and there. My point is that the unit, while it started with a 30+ year old drawing didn't get nostalgic... the implementation is quite modern in it's approach, and quite different in it's result.
Old 8th July 2003
  #12
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🎧 15 years
Yeah the great river has been calling my name even before hearing that. I like the transformer load and impedance buttons too.
Old 8th July 2003
  #13
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🎧 15 years
I've got a Great River MP-2NV on loan. I think it's a well done piece of gear and it captures all that is good with the Neve 1073 sound.

Steve
www.mojopie.com
Old 9th July 2003
  #14
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Try the Phoenix. There is no eq, but it has that Neve type low end that some clones miss (brent averill excluded). Best preamp I'ved tried. By the way, in the 1073 design, the 3rd gain stage doesn't kick in until over 50db of gain, so the only circuit that runs up to that point without eq is the BA 283 (or 183 on the older designs). Brent Averill has adjusted the gain staging to get the extra 20db from the input gain stage and they use the orignial BA 283 cuircuts, and recap them. Sowter's web site has all the drawings.
Old 9th July 2003
  #15
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🎧 15 years
I wouldn't decide on any Neve-alike without first checking out the Aurora.
Old 9th July 2003
  #16
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
From one Neveslut to fellow gearslutz.. what are the modules from this crew like?

http://www.steersaudio.com/

damn cheap! $1700 each and their 8 ch rack is $850!

Cheers
Wiggy
Old 9th July 2003
  #17
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Quote:
I wouldn't decide on any Neve-alike without first checking out the Aurora.
Been there, done that. See my first post.
None of the boxes mentioned in this thread can hold a candle to the Averill stuff. Not the Pheonix, Aurora, MP2NV, Vintech, none of it. I hate to sound like a walking advertisement for the guy but his stuff just rocks. If you do get another box on hand, make sure you get one from Brent to do a comparison. He gives you a 10 day money back gaurantee so you have nothing to lose. Compared to an Averill 1073, the other boxes sound tiny, amateurish, and uninspiring.
Old 9th July 2003
  #18
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De chromium cob's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So why not just save up a little more and by real Neves? I started my addiction with a pair of 1079s that a friend of a friend was selling for a great price because he was strapped for cash...After that I found 4 1073s for a price I couldnt turn down, then a pair of 1081s for the better eq and the class A/B sound to round out the collection....It was more money then 8 channels of clones would have been but they sound like they should, have more of a wow factor for the studio and I think they will hold their value better then clones in the long run.
Old 9th July 2003
  #19
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plexi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ziegenh5
Compared to an Averill 1073, the other boxes sound tiny, amateurish, and uninspiring.
Yeah right.......grudge

Comments like that isn`t very smart.....grudge
Old 9th July 2003
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by littledog
I wouldn't decide on any Neve-alike without first checking out the Aurora.
Chrisgraff, the guy that turned me on to the Phoenix and the Gordon, says the Aurora is pretty damn good. So, you're probably very correct.

Steve
www.mojopie.com
Old 9th July 2003
  #21
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ziegenh5
Been there, done that. See my first post.
None of the boxes mentioned in this thread can hold a candle to the Averill stuff. Not the Pheonix, Aurora, MP2NV, Vintech, none of it. I hate to sound like a walking advertisement for the guy but his stuff just rocks. If you do get another box on hand, make sure you get one from Brent to do a comparison. He gives you a 10 day money back gaurantee so you have nothing to lose. Compared to an Averill 1073, the other boxes sound tiny, amateurish, and uninspiring.
The Aurora GTQ2 is one of the preamps in which I have a great interest. (Along with Gordon Audio, Chandler, and VIPRE - yes I know, all very different animals). Have you had a chance to try that specific unit, ziegen?

Until I get hands on experience, I can't really argue your point. But I would be reluctant to assume (or take your word for it) that the only manufacturer of the bunch who was directly involved in original Neve designs (Geoffrey Tanner) who left Phoenix over philosophical differences to start his own company is now producing a box of horse**** that can't stand up to Brent Averill.

However, your advice about doing a comparison test for oneself is beyond debate. Hope to try it soon. (If I hadn't just spent almost $3000 on MassivePack, Oxford Dynamics, and a matched pair of Josephsons, it would be even sooner...)

By the way, others have used almost your exact words in describing the Aurora blowing away the Averill, Phoenix, etc. With all the blowing going on, I better bring in all my patio furniture...
Old 9th July 2003
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by littledog
With all the blowing going on, I better bring in all my patio furniture...
heh heh heh
Old 10th July 2003
  #23
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🎧 15 years
I really don't mean to set anyone's panties on fire. I am simply sharing my experience so that I may save those interested in that real deal Neve sound some time and money. I wish somebody had given me the advice I am giving you. I have owned the Phoenix Audio DRS-2, the Phoenix Audio(now Aurora Audio) GTQ2, the Great River MP2NV among many others from a non-Neve camp. While I had never heard a 1073 module before, my ears were telling me that this couldn't be it, there had to be something more. So I took the plunge and ordered some real 1073's racked and recapped by Brent Averill along with some of his API modules and put them up against the pre's I already had. No comparison. The Averill 1073's ate the other pre's for breakfast in size, depth, emotion, musicality, warmth, ........you get the picture. I also prefered the API's over the others for the same reason, though the API does it in a different way(more sizzly up top, and less bottom) All the other pre's are fine units that a lot of people use and get great results with. Heck, I got great results with them. But now I get way better results and am finally loving the sound I hear coming back at me through the speakers. Am I done buying preamps? Hell, no. I'm a gearslut. There's always something else out there to try.....
Sean
Old 10th July 2003
  #24
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ziegenh5
I really don't mean to set anyone's panties on fire. I am simply sharing my experience so that I may save those interested in that real deal Neve sound some time and money. I wish somebody had given me the advice I am giving you. I have owned the Phoenix Audio DRS-2, the Phoenix Audio(now Aurora Audio) GTQ2, the Great River MP2NV among many others from a non-Neve camp. While I had never heard a 1073 module before, my ears were telling me that this couldn't be it, there had to be something more. So I took the plunge and ordered some real 1073's racked and recapped by Brent Averill along with some of his API modules and put them up against the pre's I already had. No comparison. The Averill 1073's ate the other pre's for breakfast in size, depth, emotion, musicality, warmth, ........you get the picture. I also prefered the API's over the others for the same reason, though the API does it in a different way(more sizzly up top, and less bottom) All the other pre's are fine units that a lot of people use and get great results with. Heck, I got great results with them. But now I get way better results and am finally loving the sound I hear coming back at me through the speakers. Am I done buying preamps? Hell, no. I'm a gearslut. There's always something else out there to try.....
Sean
Yeah, they sound great because its a real Neve, kinda- or as he puts it- "Made from an authentic reproduction of a Neve 1073 module." Whatever that means.......I dont like the fact that he puts his own faceplate on it....And for the price theyre going for its not that much more to get the real deal-
Old 10th July 2003
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
It was more money then 8 channels of clones would have been but they sound like they should, have more of a wow factor for the studio and I think they will hold their value better then clones in the long run.
Amen. They may even make you a few(hundred) bucks.


Quote:
Comments like that isn`t very smart.....
No. You ISN'T very smart. Have you tried them all side by side as I have? I stand by my previous statement.

Quote:
But I would be reluctant to assume (or take your word for it) that the only manufacturer of the bunch who was directly involved in original Neve designs (Geoffrey Tanner) who left Phoenix over philosophical differences to start his own company is now producing a box of horse**** that can't stand up to Brent Averill.
Geoff Tanner's knowledge, reputation, career, designs, and what he continues to contribute to the pro audio community is unparalleled IMO. Very few people are in his league. The GTQ2 is not a box of horse****. To the contrary, it is a great box, one of the best of the current designs that I have heard. That said, an Averill 1073 is at another level of sonic pleasure IMO.

Sometimes when you improve the specs of a design, you lose something in the audio. If you were to measure a Trident A Range module with a scope, it would look horrible, but the sound is an entirely different story.....and the sound is all that matters.....right? Same thing goes for a Neve, Helios, or an API. Their imperfections are what make them special. They do something to the signal that changes it in a pleasing way. They make things sound bigger, richer, better. Today, everything seems to be geared toward being cleaner, crisper, faster, more "modern" sounding. Straight wire with gain........yuck...........This is not the sound of rock & roll.
Old 10th July 2003
  #26
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Yeah, they sound great because its a real Neve, kinda- or as he puts it- "Made from an authentic reproduction of a Neve 1073 module." Whatever that means.......I dont like the fact that he puts his own faceplate on it....And for the price theyre going for its not that much more to get the real deal-
Mine are actually the real 1073 modules he racks up. Not the re-makes. I agree about the faceplate but I still love how they look, feel, and most importantly, sound.

And dude........Nice Rack.

Sean
Old 10th July 2003
  #27
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Old 10th July 2003
  #28
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The only one I've heard in person is the Brent Averills and that's why I want a 1073 or a copy. At least it's a safe bet that the Averills kick ass. Not much talk about the Dan Alexanders.
Old 10th July 2003
  #29
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Robotnik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
The idea was to get the 'thunder' associated with a '1073' like pre... but without the 'haze'/'tonal buildup' that can often occur when using a Neve (tm) module on a whole bunch of tracks within the context of a project.
My mileage definitely varies to yours.
Old 10th July 2003
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
My mileage definitely varies to yours.
Ditto.

I find the low end on my 1073's to be very tight and well defined, as well as being huge. I've never experienced any haze/tonal buildup of any kind, and I'm going to tape.heh

Sean
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