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Wunder CM7 FET or Neumann U87..
Old 15th April 2010
  #1
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Wunder CM7 FET or Neumann U87..

I realise these two are reasonably different...but if you could only have one for general duties (vocal wise it would mainly be for female vocals and rap vocals) which would you choose and why? The CM7 FET is £500 cheaper than the U87 here too...I currently have 2 x Schoeps MK4 and an SM57..
Old 23rd April 2010
  #2
7Hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.D View Post
I realise these two are reasonably different...but if you could only have one for general duties (vocal wise it would mainly be for female vocals and rap vocals) which would you choose and why? The CM7 FET is £500 cheaper than the U87 here too...I currently have 2 x Schoeps MK4 and an SM57..
Would need precise microphone with good hi-end response for rap to understand wtf is said or raped. CM7 is tube mic and that sould bring warmth what can mud the voice and is extremely expensive, U87 has slightly modern design , kinda 67 type capsule, 47 capsule was the first experiment on neumann and it could be less detailed, of course grill , and electronics, the shape can mean a lot. Can try the JZ BH 2 or JZ V67, which are very price quality adequate.
Old 23rd April 2010
  #3
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dhiltonlittle's Avatar
 

why the fet?

i'd be looking at the cm7 gt with either the k47 or m7 capsule.

the 87 is a great all around mic and you are right. they are both very different.

between these two for "general" duties i'd grab the 87 first.

i wouldn't really consider the fet for general duties...
Old 23rd April 2010
  #4
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get both and try it for yourself. there is no other logical advice. we have no idea what kind of music you produce, what kind of sound you are after and therefore we can basically just give you bad advice.

that being said i personally would get the 87. especially if you run a commercial studio. no client will even know the company wunder but every third client wll ask for a u87 - trust me. i used the wunder cm7gt (so thats a different model than the one you are looking at) and didn't like it at all compared to my horch. i would certainly prefer a 87.
but thats my opinion and it might be completely wrong in your eyes. so i suggest you do the only logical thing and audition both.
Old 24th April 2010
  #5
7Hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle View Post
why the fet?

i'd be looking at the cm7 gt with either the k47 or m7 capsule.

the 87 is a great all around mic and you are right. they are both very different.

between these two for "general" duties i'd grab the 87 first.

i wouldn't really consider the fet for general duties...
Reason why to grab 87 for general duties?
Old 24th April 2010
  #6
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Hz View Post
Would need precise microphone with good hi-end response for rap to understand wtf is said or raped. CM7 is tube mic and that sould bring warmth what can mud the voice
The CM7 FET is not a tube mic, its the solid state FET version of the CM7.
Old 24th April 2010
  #7
7Hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Hz View Post
Sorry i meant CM7 not CM7 GT
sorry I meant CM7 not CM7 FET
Old 24th April 2010
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Hz View Post
Reason why to grab 87 for general duties?
because it usually works on 99 percent of the things you put it on.
Old 26th May 2010
  #9
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Neumann U87 Fet

Ive only used the U87 myself , but gotta say i prefer a 414 on a most female... yeah i know weird..... but if you would like to try one out (U87) im based in london and have one for sale going for a really good price, if i can sell it quickly , and i have my eye on another toy, and have 2 U87s
Attached Thumbnails
Wunder CM7 FET or Neumann U87..-photo0018.jpg  
Old 25th June 2010
  #10
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Aaron Miller's Avatar
I have used 87s and own a CM7-GT w/ M7. For all around use and for what you're describing, get a U87. For smooth as silk, retro male vocals, get a Wunder.
Old 25th June 2010
  #11
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
get a U87.
+1 thumbsupthumbsup Unless you already have a pair. Then get the Wunder.
Old 25th June 2010
  #12
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Daedalus77's Avatar
If the 87 is a current run, Ai model, I'd look at the many other options in that price range. My choice would be a Gefell UM70. I've heard it called a "U87 killer," and it sounds excellent on anything. I've done whole albums of vocals with it. It is true that an older 87 is a classic workhorse, but the current run, to my ears, is not the same. Sorry to muddy the waters, if I've done that.
Old 25th June 2010
  #13
Gear Head
 

+1

Got a pair of UM70s about a year ago and they have become the closest thing I have ever encountered in terms of put it up and forget it's there. They just get the job done on an amazingly wide range of voice types. Don't know about the new ones at Mercenary but an M7 capsule with FET amp is a great combo and you can find them for about half the $ of an 87. I own a Wunder CM7-gt and it's def got the silk thing going on but can be a bit too smooth depending on how you want vox to sit. That being said, an 87 is on my shortlist exactly because of that whole name-brand/classic thing so if in doubt go with the 87.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
If the 87 is a current run, Ai model, I'd look at the many other options in that price range. My choice would be a Gefell UM70. I've heard it called a "U87 killer," and it sounds excellent on anything. I've done whole albums of vocals with it. It is true that an older 87 is a classic workhorse, but the current run, to my ears, is not the same. Sorry to muddy the waters, if I've done that.
Old 25th June 2010
  #14
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
If the 87 is a current run, Ai model, I'd look at the many other options in that price range. My choice would be a Gefell UM70. I've heard it called a "U87 killer," and it sounds excellent on anything. I've done whole albums of vocals with it. It is true that an older 87 is a classic workhorse, but the current run, to my ears, is not the same. Sorry to muddy the waters, if I've done that.
I love my UM70's as well, but aside from a short run they did of them recently, I don't think they are readily available. The UMT70 (transformerless) is similar, but a different bird. And as far as the UM70 being a U87 killer......eh, I don't think so. They are very similar and both have that classic Neumann "vibe" but the lower half of the frequency spectrum is quite different with them. The UM70 is rolled off unless you have it right up on the source, and the U87 has a big warm smokey lower-mid / bottom. I love both mics and would hate to be without either of them.
Old 25th June 2010
  #15
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
and you can find them for about half the $ of an 87.
That is true!!!!!!!! And one of the most amazing mic bargains still out there even though their price has been climbing. thumbsupthumbsup
Old 25th June 2010
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I love my UM70's as well, but aside from a short run they did of them recently, I don't think they are readily available. The UMT70 (transformerless) is similar, but a different bird. And as far as the UM70 being a U87 killer......eh, I don't think so. They are very similar and both have that classic Neumann "vibe" but the lower half of the frequency spectrum is quite different with them. The UM70 is rolled off unless you have it right up on the source, and the U87 has a big warm smokey lower-mid / bottom. I love both mics and would hate to be without either of them.
They are still available for order drBill. Do you need 10 more?

And yes, we will continue to beg/influence MG to build the UM70S/MV692.

I think the reason you can call it a "U87 killer" is becasue there have been many people who have liked the UM70S or UMT70s for their work more than the U87. At least, many of my clients w/ 87's have switched to using these microphones in the same places towards [better/end user relevant] results. I mean you have them, so I am sure you understand what I mean, its just becasue they ARE different that one or the other might "win" or whatever the hell this contest is about. I certainly would freely admit, its a different shade of orange and probably best not to be compared, as apples to apples but its true that many people replace those mikes with MG product instead.
Old 25th June 2010
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
Don't know about the new ones at Mercenary but an M7 capsule with FET amp is a great combo
Yup. And these are the same exact thing. Nothing has changed.
Old 25th June 2010
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
If the 87 is a current run, Ai model, I'd look at the many other options in that price range.
That is, unless you like a lot of high-end hype - go for the U87Ai anniversary edition. Clients love that "expensive" sound the chrome adds to vocals. heh

Mine works great for VO or for dark male vocals in a dense mix, less eq needed.


Rob
Old 25th June 2010
  #19
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
They are still available for order drBill. Do you need 10 more?
Need them??? hehheh My wife has a different definition of "need" than I do. hehheh Want, hell yeah...5 isn't enough sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
And yes, we will continue to beg/influence MG to build the UM70S/MV692.
EXCELLENT!!!! Keep the tradition alive! thumbsupthumbsup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
I think the reason you can call it a "U87 killer" is becasue there have been many people who have liked the UM70S or UMT70s for their work more than the U87. At least, many of my clients w/ 87's have switched to using these microphones in the same places towards [better/end user relevant] results. I mean you have them, so I am sure you understand what I mean, its just becasue they ARE different that one or the other might "win" or whatever the hell this contest is about.
I certainly understand. It's not a contest to me, just a different color. I know the typical GS rant is that they are x/x interchangable with U87's, but I just don't really find that to be all that true in practical applications. For instance, I HIGHLY prefer the gefell's on OH over the 87's. On cello, it's going to be the 87. Vocals? Could go either way, but probably leaning towards the 87. Steel string, most likely UM. Nylon String, gonna be 87.

Someday I hope the Gefell's will get the iconic cult status that they deserve. Until then, I still have a chance to buy up another 10 or so before they go skyhigh...... heh
Old 26th June 2010
  #20
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Daedalus77's Avatar
I have one of the recent Mercenary run of UM70, and I've used a lot of 87s, in various conditions, from various eras. Dr. Bill is correct that the lower registers on the two mics are a bit different. But I've found you can approximate that 87 low-mid girth (if that's what you want) with the UM70 by getting the up-close to the source. I guess what I meant by "87-killer"—and I think it was Joel Hamilton who originally said that; my apologies to Joel if I'm wrong—is that, for me, it's the mic I can put up on anything and know I'm going to get excellent results, every time. I've also got a UMT70S, which, as noted, is a different beast, but equally utilitarian.
Old 26th June 2010
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Adam,

I own a UMT70s. I didn't even realize Mercenary had a Limited Edition UM70 available.

What could you say differentiates both mics on a sonic/performance level. I know that mine is transformerless whereas the UM70 has a transformer, but how do they compare side by side?

Are these LE UM70's built exactly like the old ones?
Old 26th June 2010
  #22
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Daedalus77's Avatar
I'm sure Adam can say more, but I own both, and I'd say the UM70 is a bit "fuller," a little more robust in the lower registers, and (I hate to use this word), a tad "warmer," subjectively. But it's also detailed and true to the source. The UMT70S is similar, but a bit more transparent, a bit "cleaner," without sacrificing any musicality. Both microphones ooze euphonic goodness. One isn't a replacement for the other, and having both gives one a slightly more diverse palate of tones. I hope that's helpful.
Old 27th June 2010
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmik_debris View Post
Adam,

I own a UMT70s. I didn't even realize Mercenary had a Limited Edition UM70 available.

What could you say differentiates both mics on a sonic/performance level. I know that mine is transformerless whereas the UM70 has a transformer, but how do they compare side by side?

Are these LE UM70's built exactly like the old ones?
As Daedalus77 mentions, there is a mighty useful subjective difference between them. I can tell you they are almost the same exact microphone, but insist that they will never be redundant. The UM70S/MV692 is cool because of its modular capsule design [they make other capsule fittings which are highly recommend for their sought after sonics with the MV692] The transformer output gives the microphone a special "old world" sonic, which is different from the "DC-to-Daylight" and super huge dynamic range of the UMT70S. Because of the output transformer, the UM70S/MV692 has more phase distortion, rounder and "warmer" fuller kind of tone to it. More Harmonics and perhaps a darker more forgiving character. Its got a warmer sound [fully rotund but balanced and organic] comparatively speaking. It also has slightly less output, and less super huge dynamic range when compared to its over performing transformer less brother.
Old 28th June 2010
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Awesome. That's kind of what I was expecting to hear. I love my UMT70S on the snare drum. I like it on acoustic guitars and vocals but it rarely gets used in those applications. Can't figure it out on electric guitar, but maybe I haven't tried hard enough yet

What applications do you guys think both versions shine on??? I think I'd love the UM70 on electric guitars by the way you describe it. I've recently enjoyed a CM7-GT/R84 combo for electric guitars, but it never hurts to entertain other options.
Old 28th June 2010
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmik_debris View Post
Awesome. That's kind of what I was expecting to hear. I love my UMT70S on the snare drum. I like it on acoustic guitars and vocals but it rarely gets used in those applications. Can't figure it out on electric guitar, but maybe I haven't tried hard enough yet

What applications do you guys think both versions shine on??? I think I'd love the UM70 on electric guitars by the way you describe it. I've recently enjoyed a CM7-GT/R84 combo for electric guitars, but it never hurts to entertain other options.
Snare is a great app for these microphones. I actually love the UMT70s on small combo amps [clean tones/sounds, perhaps like a VOX AC15 or our Oahu] or even my highly favorable SVT 8X10 Bass Cab. Its never really blown me away for needing more aggressive/non-linear capture of stuff, but it will present the source and all its worth in a clear and intelligible light. It certainly might not be every ones thing, but in the scheme of life I find this microphone to overwhelmingly versatile.

On electrics; try using it, with another microphone, like a dynamic and a ribbon and blend them together. I don't think I've heard a single instance of undesirable sonic quality with the UMT70s anywhere I have ever put one. There's one on the outside of the kick drum right now. Its going through my FEARN and I have yet to take my jaw from the floor. Anyway, the UM70S/MV692 seems to have a darker, more intimate harmonic coloration, which gives the microphone a beautiful resonance of rich lows and flattering - rounded HF while retaining all the detail in the world. I love them on Drum overheads, strings, acoustic GT, bass, VOCALS, etc...

The UMT70S has slightly better S/N ratio and dynamic range, along with less transient skew/phase distortion so it has a more responsive, faster, lighter 'less harmonically pleasurable type of tone/sound, [more straight forward/flatter] whereas the UM70S/MV692 seems to have less of this extreme height to the dynamic, [slightly less, nothing to lose sleep over, having trouble counting microphones jump over fences] so you might not get as CHEST thumping HEART pounding attack and girth outside of a kick drum that you would with the transformer less version, but you are sure to miss the "grandmas freshly baked chocolate chip cookies" with the UMT70s. In all regards MG's PVC M7 is just instinctively musical in any direction no matter what amp body its attached to.
Old 28th June 2010
  #26
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Daedalus77's Avatar
I'm (again) with Adam.

As far as electric guitar, the R-121 / UMT-70S combination is a current favorite for clean to moderately overdriven stuff. You get the meat, the bite, the dynamics of the player's fingers—the whole enchilada. In truth, I could easily get by with just the Royer, but often the Gefell adds some clarity that's really valuable. I'm not doing heavily-scooped aggro and metal stuff, usually, I'll stipulate—in which case the Royer / 421 or 57 combo is usually the ticket.

I'll have to try the Gefell on snare. I've never used it there, which really says more about my confidence in most of the drummers I track than the usability of that specific microphone in that specific application.

Best of luck,
David
Old 24th July 2011
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.D View Post
I realise these two are reasonably different...but if you could only have one for general duties (vocal wise it would mainly be for female vocals and rap vocals) which would you choose and why? The CM7 FET is £500 cheaper than the U87 here too...I currently have 2 x Schoeps MK4 and an SM57..
Great question.
First of all, a well maintained u87 from the 1960's or 1970's is a way better product than a U87ai.
I don't know exactly what happened there, lots of products can mirror that example from autos to musical gear...
Back to the question
The Wunder cm7FET is a great solid state all purpose mic, the u87ai is not as universal to my ear.
I've owned two U87ai's before and I'll never do it again.
I own a Wunder Cm7 fet and I'd be happy to purchase another if needed.
Side note...(cm7fet does not come with pad switch, I use a Shure line pad when appropriate)
I have used this mic on Bass amps, kick, guitar amps, vocals, ac guitar.
I hope this helps.
The sonic value of this mic is huge, I love that it's cheaper than a U87ai and it it leagues above.
To be fair, I'm usually recording rock performances, so the fragile nature of u87ai has never been seem as an asset.
Best
Frenchie
Old 5th May 2015
  #28
I'm interested if anyone else has anything else to add on this topic. The FET and the u87 are both contenders for me.
Old 11th May 2015
  #29
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mbvoxx's Avatar
surprised this thread got revived.
I have both the 87 and the Neumann 47fet and use the 47fet 10:1 over the 87. The 87 is a great mic but I find the 47fet to work for everything when all I need is cardioid. It's not just a good kick drum mic. Have wondered about the Wunder mic as it's half the cost of a Neumann.

Last edited by mbvoxx; 11th May 2015 at 11:38 PM..
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