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Questions regarding consoles, summing boxes and ITB mixing. Consoles
Old 26th March 2010
  #121
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Titans55's Avatar
Hey James,

Did you get a chance to try out the inward mix690. If so, how sonically is it different from the Chandler.
Old 26th March 2010
  #122
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titans55 View Post
Hey James,

Did you get a chance to try out the inward mix690. If so, how sonically is it different from the Chandler.
I didn't. This is not the easiest thing to do, it's easy to grab a bunch of mics and check them out but this is way more involved.
Old 26th March 2010
  #123
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RoundBadge's Avatar
James did you guys dig the Nicerizer?
I had one for a while.
liked really that one , the chandler and the tonelux[still have it chained into the Neve/API]
although sonically my fav was probably the Shadow hills..[euphonic ,nice big/ wide sounding stereo image] just too limited routing.
Old 26th March 2010
  #124
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
James did you guys dig the Nicerizer?
I had one for a while.
liked really that one , the chandler and the tonelux[still have it chained into the Neve/API]
although sonically my fav was probably the Shadow hills..[euphonic ,nice big/ wide sounding stereo image] just too limited routing.

Thats what I want to know. I hear that nicerizer is pretty darn good. Whats the story?
Old 26th March 2010
  #125
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

The Nicerizer sounds great. Just playing the field.
Old 26th March 2010
  #126
If you need to discover what a high end console can do to the mix, rent a neighbor's room with one and bring in your tracks to find out. Always try before you buy, unless you want to do the SamAshGuitarCenterMercenarySweetwaterFullCompass two step.

As to the costs of an analog console, how low do they need to go for you?

One fellow brought in a Pacific Recorders FM radio console from "Rick Dees". It's built first rate. Very clean and very good quality. Sealed Clarostat conductive plastic pots like SSL. TKD faders. He paid $500 for it. It's built in 1997 and it's like brand new.

Another fellow bought a Harrison MR-4 40 input for $500 in Orange County. Is that low enough for you? He wasn't done yet, he bough a Harrison Raven for $800. Another in LA just got a very clean Soundcraft 6000 36 input with patch bay, $2000. I suspect you will be paying more for analog tape than you will for a console, if you shop.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 26th March 2010
  #127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
You will see, if the summer was pushed that the transients are a bit lower and as a result are fatter. Depending on the mix you will see that compression has taken place and distortion has been added.
However, the opposite is also possible and is being done. Some analog sum amp designs are far better than the resolution of any converter. Some have noise below -120 dbu. Some have the ability to put out +28 dbu with .0002% IMD.

In that case no THD is added nor any compression is occuring. The THD lowers down to the clipping point at +28 dbu, it's .0005% THD+noise on the Audio Precision analyzer. The results are a mix with all the clarity and transient response of high rate digital but with the organic qualities of analog including the depth factor, sans analog THD and mush.

To me it's the best of both worlds. You don't have to choose either a sterile ITB mix or a sloppy, dirty analog mix. There is a third way.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 26th March 2010
  #128
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
However, the opposite is also possible and is being done. Some analog sum amp designs are far better than the resolution of any converter. Some have noise below -120 dbu. Some have the ability to put out +28 dbu with .0002% IMD.

In that case no THD is added nor any compression is occuring. The THD lowers down to the clipping point at +28 dbu, it's .0005% THD+noise on the Audio Precision analyzer. The results are a mix with all the clarity and transient response of high rate digital but with the organic qualities of analog including the depth factor, sans analog THD and mush.

To me it's the best of both worlds. You don't have to choose either a sterile ITB mix or a sloppy, dirty analog mix. There is a third way.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
I really understand what you mean, although we don´t know i´ve been working with friends on this approach since month and it´s the best way for me, too.
I can get rid of the digital sufferings, yet stay "clean", open even more than ITB. I don´t need a "sound" machine desk, thats bad quality is advertised as colour.
It´s just great to work analog for it´s benefits and it´s just great to do the analog path as good as possible as it can get to maintain the sonics.
If i want a special sound i can still put it in with outboard, but if i don´t want it, i don´t have to struggle with it.
Peace!
Old 26th March 2010
  #129
"Digital sufferings", a great term BTW, must be avoided for the third way to work.
Any digital sufferings would be passed and heard in my console. The trick is to avoid them before mixing commences.

For me that requires first rate ADC's to track. Then I avoid the DAW and all digital editing. One pass through that stuff and it's all over for me. Then you end up with that DAW/Pro Tools thin as a hair "soda straw" sound that we all hear on current releases. My tracks come back as recorded, just the way I like them. Then I use all analog processing. Digital is just a storage medium for me, editing is done traditionally, the "play it again, Sam" rules apply.

I use the studio as a traditional facility. It's to record and mix, not replace and fix.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 26th March 2010
  #130
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
"Digital sufferings", a great term BTW, must be avoided for the third way to work.
Any digital sufferings would be passed and heard in my console. The trick is to avoid them before mixing commences.

For me that requires first rate ADC's to track. Then I avoid the DAW and all digital editing. One pass through that stuff and it's all over for me. Then you end up with that DAW/Pro Tools thin as a hair "soda straw" sound that we all hear on current releases. My tracks come back as recorded, just the way I like them. Then I use all analog processing. Digital is just a storage medium for me, editing is done traditionally, the "play it again, Sam" rules apply.

I use the studio as a traditional facility. It's to record and mix, not replace and fix.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Thanks!
I use UA2192 for overdubs and Alphalink for the bigger trackings.
I think it´s ok, but well, i don´t really know if it could be better. maybe it can.
ITB it´s great to edit for me. I´m a faker sometimes, i have to admit. I mean thinks like cutting the bass guitar to bassdrum, for example.
I´d never touch an eq or a tube simmulator or anything that will change the sound, i did in the past, but i now know why i shouldn´t.
When this is done i print to tape an record back.
Thank i put to desk and do the eq´s and levels.
My reverbs are still itb, as my compressors.
Compressors will be replaced soon by Fet style DIY units and than i want to check the reverb gear. They will be selected from near to rear in 3D by choosing the electronics, this will be fun. Ok, maybe some optical devices, too. We´re very optimistic and focused on this at the moment!
I want to have 48 channels with real EQ and compressors first.
I´m very picky about instruments, amps, drums and tuning and so on, it´s so much fun and there is no other way to get a good sound imo.
I started digital and i understand now what´s possible and what´s not possible for me. There are things that i can´t reach itb within hours of work, that are just happening analog. I´m cured, not black and white, but understanding the benefits of great analog systems.
Peace
Old 26th March 2010
  #131
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Plugging in our second DA now.

Old 26th March 2010
  #132
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six_wax's Avatar
 

...

Last edited by six_wax; 26th March 2010 at 10:47 PM.. Reason: Nevermind... Late to the party...
Old 27th March 2010
  #133
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Bubbakron's Avatar
 

Why so many channels when the chandler is only 16 input??? just curious




Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
Plugging in our second DA now.

Old 27th March 2010
  #134
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbakron View Post
Why so many channels when the chandler is only 16 input??? just curious
16 channels for hardware inserts through pt and 16 channels out to mixer.

On a side note, the DA16X was bought used and showed up this week DOA, we called Apogee and they spent about 20 minutes on the phone with us trouble shooting to no avail. My guy drove it to them they fixed it in one hour on the spot no charge. It came back and was perfect. F'n amazing company.
Old 27th March 2010
  #135
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James, I say this in all seriousness: Leave space between your Apogees and whatever gear is above and below. Those things need serious ventilation. They get hotter than even my tube gear.
Old 27th March 2010
  #136
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DONNX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
16 channels for hardware inserts through pt and 16 channels out to mixer.

On a side note, the DA16X was bought used and showed up this week DOA, we called Apogee and they spent about 20 minutes on the phone with us trouble shooting to no avail. My guy drove it to them they fixed it in one hour on the spot no charge. It came back and was perfect. F'n amazing company.


Yea Apogee is has some of the best support I ever dealt with. Yea, dude. I agree on spacing those out. But then again, they are just down the street from ya! heh Do you have a Big Ben clock or a master clock?

The BB doesn't get so hot like the AD/DA units. I have my DA just sitting on top of the BB. And the AD spaced away from the DA for some air. The only troubles I really have with the X series are those damm power buttons. But Apogee just put some new ones in for me "free of charge".


Curious to know.. Why not just patch/insert all your hardware after the DA before it hits the mixer? You got a patch bay. 0 latency. And no need for another DA16x unless you got a 24/32 channel mixer.
Old 27th March 2010
  #137
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Curious to know.. Why not just patch/insert all your hardware after the DA before it hits the mixer? You got a patch bay. 0 latency. And no need for another DA16x unless you got a 24/32 channel mixer.
Because all the inserts would then be post fader, post automation. Not good. Additionally, you wouldn't be able to use buss compression unless you created an output for each buss.

Carry on...
Old 27th March 2010
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
James, I say this in all seriousness: Leave space between your Apogees and whatever gear is above and below. Those things need serious ventilation. They get hotter than even my tube gear.
Yeah. And, really, you should have digital gear and analog equipment on other sides of the room, or at least in different racks, to avoid hum fields.

I'm always amazed to look at racks of peoples studios and it's loaded to the gills with gear...there's a reason some pieces of gear have vents...they need to breathe!
Old 27th March 2010
  #139
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
James, I say this in all seriousness: Leave space between your Apogees and whatever gear is above and below. Those things need serious ventilation. They get hotter than even my tube gear.
I was gonna do that this morning, that's funny you mentioned it. When I pulled out the one DA to send to Apogee yesterday that thing was hot like an oven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi View Post
Because all the inserts would then be post fader, post automation. Not good. Additionally, you wouldn't be able to use buss compression unless you created an output for each buss.

Carry on...
Exactly.
Old 27th March 2010
  #140
Lives for gear
didn't read all 5 pages of this thread but responding to OP:

a summing box will get you "there".

a passive summing box doesn't have the same sound as an active mixer.

which sounds better is a matter of opinion.

once you get the tape machine going you will want a console though. Since you are in LA it shouldn't be hard to find something cool, this isn't even something you should be thinking about so hard. you can get a phat console for less than the price of one decent piece of rack gear, and it will take you 10x further. just don't buy something in crappy condition. there are plenty of threads on this board talking about consoles, you could make a short list in your range in a couple hours, then used "crazedlist" to search craigslist in your driving distance for a couple months. you'll find a deal, and just rent a uhaul van or something and go pick it up. I would recomment not shipping a console.
Old 27th March 2010
  #141
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Delphino's Avatar
 

What about a simple solution like routing 2bus thru a chain of wonderful mic-pre's, eq' or even compressor to add iron mojo/glue?

i'm saving up for pacifica->gyratec14....

shouldn't such a solution be close to summing amp? with the added value of dual use.
Old 27th March 2010
  #142
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

we already do that
Old 27th March 2010
  #143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphino View Post
What about a simple solution like routing 2bus thru a chain of wonderful mic-pre's, eq' or even compressor to add iron mojo/glue?

i'm saving up for pacifica->gyratec14....

shouldn't such a solution be close to summing amp? with the added value of dual use.
I currently do that with my Foote P3S on the 2-bus in Logic - adds some excellent iron/weight to the sound. My ToneBuss arrives today and I'll be testing it to see if it's adding even more.
Old 29th March 2010
  #144
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mu6gr8's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphino View Post
What about a simple solution like routing 2bus thru a chain of wonderful mic-pre's, eq' or even compressor to add iron mojo/glue?

...shouldn't such a solution be close to summing amp?
Not at all. It can add coloration, mojo and glue, but it won't give the benefits of analog summing.

You can integrate outboard gear with analog summing, and get the best of both worlds.
Old 6th April 2010
  #145
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Hello

Old 6th April 2010
  #146
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

The site is just getting started:
Hemispheres Recording
Old 6th April 2010
  #147
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Seamus TM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
The studio console in the control room is traditionally like the family dining table in the home. When it comes down to tracking or mix time its the place where everyone comes together to convene their ideas. I know that scares some people around here and seems strange for those who like working alone all the time and just emailing mixes back and forth, but there is something magical that happens when everyone comes together and locks the subconscious around the tablet.
I really love this sentiment.
Thanks.
Old 6th April 2010
  #148
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Grumblefoot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
Hello


SLUT!
Old 6th April 2010
  #149
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Cool James, just be sure to do a version of the site that doesn't rely on Flash, for those who browse on their mobile devices/iPads/phones/etc.
Yeah there will be skip intro tab.
Old 7th April 2010
  #150
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