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Questions regarding consoles, summing boxes and ITB mixing. Consoles
Old 25th March 2010
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm View Post
One sure way to find out. It might save you alot of hassle and money.

Take the same song and engineer and book a room with a nice desk and do a mix of the same song you did ITB and see for yourself. If you notice a major difference you need a desk...if you don't notice a difference and you dont like your mixes you need a new mixer heh


I suggested this as well many posts ago in one of James' threads. heh
Old 25th March 2010
  #92
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James- I think what you're hearing in the Chandler that you like is the transformers and the summing amp. When you come out of PT your signal could be at +10->+18 which, when hitting the Chandler, is going to give a nice shmeer or glue to the sounds. You might see that if your tracks are coming out of PT at lo levels the difference will be a lot subtler between ITB summing and OTB summing. That being said, I had a D2Bus and it was great. I went to a console and have stayed that route ever since.
Old 25th March 2010
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapehiss View Post

chandler will be releasing the MiniMixer II which will have fader options and also multiple aux's...... basically a mini-console with all the tone of the minimixer, but with a ****-ton of more options......
But it will also come too late for me and with a new price tag that will not make it a good business decision for me in the current studio climate/business economy. When i looked at it last(2-3 years ago) there was still throw away money in the till and those days are all but gone.

Plus i would rather put that money to other more suitable uses these days that are not necessarily gear related.

Its nice to have something to run tracks through to "change them up" but its not such a big need or deal breaker that if i didn't have it i couldn't function. Actually these days for those purposes i would rather design and build something myself. Something totally custom geared towards the way i hear things and like to currently work.
Old 25th March 2010
  #94
You have all the boutique pres and compressors already

Some state of the art 'plug ins de jour'

Add to that...

A summing box

With perhaps a kicking stereo compressor and stereo EQ (both items can be also put to use on tracking days too) across the output of that summing bus...

Picked up at 96k 24 bit / or a 1/2 inch machine

and you could be cool

If you need a center piece hardware console for client confidence - by all means get one - and get THE one that will make clients the happiest..

But you guys are all PT jockys right? Merchants of the mouse.

If your clients see you vibe-ing off the gear - then THEY will feel happy too. Thats really all that matters. In your position, do you really need to care about the chin scratching gear nit pickers? Are THEY your clients? Nooooooooooooo! They is not, I am guessing but perhaps your studios clients wouldn't give a rats ass if you had the console that recorded Aja. (but I could be wrong) You guys are hybrid PT / hardware ninjas. You need gadgets and new boxes coming in all the time to keep life interesting..

grentle men

I rast my case

P.S. You could probably get a giant air con hogging Neve V for peanuts these days - kids would think WOAH! A Neve! It impresses bands and its always something to put your feet up on..
Old 25th March 2010
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
Merchants of the mouse.
heh
Old 25th March 2010
  #96
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Hey. How about that SlateDigital console emulation thingy?


(Sorry. Could not resist )
Old 25th March 2010
  #97
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Like Michael James I thought about buying a used large format SSL or Neve console last year. STRONGLY considered it!

But after I talked to a few techs I realized that that was a nightmare I just didn't want to walk back into.

Maintenance bills. Constant cooling (24/7 with air conditioning). :(
After that moment of insanity, I thought you know what, I think that Hybrid mixing IS the way for me.
And with the Mark VIII, it has also been a better sonic direction.
Old 25th March 2010
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
Brad's a good dude and does a lot of great things around here.
Thanks James! I just generally try to treat folks with respect and not be a jerk. Sometimes I'm tempted though...

Brad
Old 25th March 2010
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
WRONG

NICE hehhehhehheh The LILO does look interesting!


Quote:
Originally Posted by mu6gr8 View Post

At the end of the day, however, the gear doesn't matter as much as the song, the artist and the performance. Some of my favorite records are not the best sounding, but the team behind the music used whatever was available to create something that emotionally resonates with the listener. Whatever works, right?

I'll take a great song over great gear any day!
thumbsup I can't count how many of my favorite artist/songs were recorded in poor low budget quality. It disturbs me that they were unfortunately archived that way, but that is the way it goes. And I still listen to them for the sake of it being a good song. They may have had a low budget, first record deal, etc. Just an example, I use to think Metallica Black was such a great recording compared to all the previous way early metallica low budget stuff and what was currently on the billboard at that time.. Now I recently gone back to hear it again in 2010.

My God have we advanced in audio when you compare to some of best recording in metal music today. Night and day for me at least. And that Black Record had a huge budget! And DVD documentary to go with it.


If I had money flying out of my speakers. heh I personally, would not buy some 10ft long, speaker reflecting, electricity AC hogging, high maintenance , fan noise making 10ft console. I think if you search on Ebay for used console. You will find a good 20+ consoles on sale monthly!! Its not hard to figure it out, that console owners are realizing that this is not a severe necessity anymore to get the job done.

Sound is my primary importance, recall, and then workflow, etc, etc. I agree with the few here who said, the console isn't so much about a special "sound". Its a work flow thing and impress the client thing. I heard some **** mixes on a SSL 9000J in LA. Thats because they had shxt mixers on the board and/or not enough money/time. I am leaning on the old saying, It's the driver (ITB OR OTB) more so than the gear. And I am definitely not saying you can compete with an Mbox. There is a need for good musicians, good room, monitors, outboard hardware, mics, converters, etc.
Old 25th March 2010
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
BTW, one reason I end up mixing ITB, when I'm mixing for other people these days, is because people have come to expect endless recalls later on. I get all these calls about one instrument being a hair too loud or whatever, that you never used to get. People are no longer used to the time and expense of recalling mixes. That's why I tend to mix things ITB these days, because of the ease of recall....

But hey, you can do the endless tweaking that indecisive artists have become accustomed to. (sigh)
That's unfortunately the reality now. We have to be more concerned about providing for recalls (that we'll never even need to do) than using every tool at our disposal to get the best possible sound. Go figure.
Old 25th March 2010
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
I heard some **** mixes on a SSL 9000J in LA. Thats because they had shxt mixers on the board and/or not enough money/time. I am leaning on the old saying, It's the driver (ITB OR OTB) more so than the gear.
Yep, it's the nut behind the wheel.
Old 25th March 2010
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mu6gr8 View Post
That's unfortunately the reality now. We have to be more concerned about providing for recalls (that we'll never even need to do) than using every tool at our disposal to get the best possible sound. Go figure.

Well back in the day when Pro Tools recall wasn't such a widespread thing. Engineers would give the clients multiple versions of the mix. 1db bump on the lead vocals, -1-2db on the vocals, guitar bumped up, bump down, etc, etc. So the client would get several versions of the mix. So there would be no issue of, HEY DUDE? can you recall this back up and bump up the cow bell for me.
Old 25th March 2010
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post

If I had money flying out of my speakers. heh I personally, would not buy some 10ft long, speaker reflecting, electricity AC hogging, high maintenance , fan noise making 10ft console. I think if you search on Ebay for used console. You will find a good 20+ consoles on sale monthly!! Its not hard to figure it out, that console owners are realizing that this is not a severe necessity anymore to get the job done.
You do a realize that the majority of what people around here consider the best sounding recordings were recorded and mixed on these speaker reflecting behemoths. It didn't really bother these people before GS but i guess it really bothers some people now post GS.

The studio console in the control room is traditionally like the family dining table in the home. When it comes down to tracking or mix time its the place where everyone comes together to convene their ideas. I know that scares some people around here and seems strange for those who like working alone all the time and just emailing mixes back and forth, but there is something magical that happens when everyone comes together and locks the subconscious around the tablet.

All i know is since control rooms have turned into a bunch of people on a sofa sitting behind & staring at the back of one guys head who is at the same time staring at a screen all day, the records just don't sound as good.

Coincidence or not there is something to be said about this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Sound is my primary importance, recall, and then workflow, etc, etc. I agree with the few here who said, the console isn't so much about a special "sound". Its a work flow thing and impress the client thing. I heard some **** mixes on a SSL 9000J in LA. Thats because they had shxt mixers on the board and/or not enough money/time. I am leaning on the old saying, It's the driver (ITB OR OTB) more so than the gear. And I am definitely not saying you can compete with an Mbox. There is a need for good musicians, good room, monitors, outboard hardware, mics, converters, etc.
Some people around here say its the driver not the car. Well all i know is that most of the attention and money these days is pre spent on the car and not driver. Its both the right driver and the right car. So consoles themselves can have a sonic foot print plus a big impact on the overall sound of a record.

There is a symbiosis that develops between the person operating it and the console itself. Why do you think some guys will only work over and over on a specific console? Its also why console choice is very personal and for your studio it really should be.

Lastly yes it is a fact: more bad mixes have been made on every top console & platform imaginable. But it is also a fact: that even though good mixes have been done on every platform, there have not been great ones. Why that is should be another thread in itself.

I always say this...if i am cruising around, trying to pick up chicks & looking to score, i'll bank on my chances if i am driving around in a Ferrari than some fancy hybrid automobile that is good for the environment.

Yeah hopefully i would eventually meet someone in the Prius but man would i have to work really hard.
Old 25th March 2010
  #104
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I feel ya Thrill. And by no means, did I intend to offend. And I know you are a console guy. And you should be. Thats the tool you have used for years and you most likely know how to use it in your sleep. I have nothing against a guy you swears by the console. Especially a guy who spent years on it, learned it, and knows how to use it. If I was in your shoes. I would continue to use a console, because thats your baby. But at the same time, I think times are changing and some engineers are trying new things, to get a different sound.

I did emphasize that as an example. You can't compete doing all this with Mbox or just staying completely ITB. I.E. no hardware, only plug ins, no good mics, no good hardware, no good room, etc. Thats one pepsi challenge I would not want to partake in. heh I personally hear what majority of the plugs do to a class A path. And I really don't like it. Taking a Neumann u47, to a 1084, limiter, converter, then you add a plug in on it. AHHH man. So the digital world has alot of catching up to do with analog. But mixing on a PTHD 8 and summing out, I have no quams at this time.

I agree the Console leaves a sonic footprint. No debate on that. And its a sonic footprint that alot of us are familiar with. I am up for the change. Progression. Going where no man has gone before ordeal. Trying new things which in turn gives us all a new sound. I think Tony Maserati has that sort of thinking based on the gear he uses. And for me his mixes sound great.


The chandler that James likes so much obviously leaves a color due to the trannies and other components it uses. But I feel there are other ways to add that similar tone with other kinds of outboard gear in the path.

Yes the majority of the records I love and everyone music buyer out there came from a console on the most part. Because that is what the standard has been for last half century. Console. I think pro tools sounds better than it did 10-15 years ago. I think we are moving forward to smaller consoles and new lower energy consumption controller/consoles like the Duality or Aws 900... ((1608, summing boxes D2bus, Mix 690, etc).

I am a firm voter for good pres, eqs, and limiters in the path. I am sorry. I am no longer convinced that a console is a mandatory item for a professional mix to be accompolished. There are quite of few good mixers out there now who don't use consoles and get paid. I just find it personally, the hybrid approach or small format console/hybrid is a great alternate approach.

But to each his own. and whatever gets you the right sound!

If you haven't read this. You might find this interesting. I agree with him.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-mic...sing-gear.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
You do a realize that the majority of what people around here consider the best sounding recordings were recorded and mixed on these speaker reflecting behemoths. It didn't really bother these people before GS but i guess it really bothers some people now post GS.

The studio console in the control room is traditionally like the family dining table in the home. When it comes down to tracking or mix time its the place where everyone comes together to convene their ideas. I know that scares some people around here and seems strange for those who like working alone all the time and just emailing mixes back and forth, but there is something magical that happens when everyone comes together and locks the subconscious around the tablet.

All i know is since control rooms have turned into a bunch of people on a sofa sitting behind & staring at the back of one guys head who is at the same time staring at a screen all day, the records just don't sound as good.

Coincidence or not there is something to be said about this.




Some people around here say its the driver not the car. Well all i know is that most of the attention and money these days is pre spent on the car and not driver. Its both the right driver and the right car. So consoles themselves can have a sonic foot print plus a big impact on the overall sound of a record.

There is a symbiosis that develops between the person operating it and the console itself. Why do you think some guys will only work over and over on a specific console? Its also why console choice is very personal and for your studio it really should be.

Lastly yes it is a fact: more bad mixes have been made on every top console & platform imaginable. But it is also a fact: that even though good mixes have been done on every platform, there have not been great ones. Why that is should be another thread in itself.

I always say this...if i am cruising around, trying to pick up chicks & looking to score, i'll bank on my chances if i am driving around in a Ferrari than some fancy hybrid automobile that is good for the environment.

Yeah hopefully i would eventually meet someone in the Prius but man would i have to work really hard.
Old 25th March 2010
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haikusoftruth View Post
Wow...

All you get for that level of malarky is this-



then one of these-



and in closing-

.


And even better-

You just made the claim that you would choose a board that sounded like ASS but had PERFECT workflow... OVER... a board that sounded INCREDIBLE but was a huge pain in the ass to work on.

HIRED!
Ew, you again. The gob****e


Great thread apart from that
Old 25th March 2010
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
On a price, features and sound front, I quite like the TL Audio M4 desks.

They are quite a nice hybrid between a console and a summing mixer, and also just so happen to have pretty nice pre-amps in them too, and cost very little.

I use one for summing but with the little added value of a nice punchy valve EQ, insert points, and the fact that I can use it on the way in too if I so want to.
Hi
I had messed about with this for 2- 3 years.
Tried a folcrom, tried a TL desk didnt like them for my stuff.
Started to make progress running a stereo mix though an A2D with the pad engaged- definite improvement. Then tried a nice 2 track machine - again progress.

Was advised to try a midas venice as a summing unit but actually I now running a stereo stem out of uln 8 into a 2 tracks of midas venice (with a UBK fatso on the inserts, come out the direct outs (sounds better to me) and then print to a masterlink.


What it seems to do is give good bottom end without loss of detail.
For me it
Old 25th March 2010
  #107
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I built a passive summing box 5 years ago. I've used on about 60% of my mixes with a TG2 for makeup gain. I wish I'd used it on all of them. My Passive+TG2 mixes always stand of above the rest in width and depth. It's even better when it goes straight from the TG2 to tape.

I own(and have owned) a lot of different pre's. But I always come back to the TG2. I've also owned a couple expensive summing boxes and they just didn't do the same thing.
Old 25th March 2010
  #108
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funka's Avatar
Could you give some more details about your passive summing box design please? I have also made one, and would like to know how others make theirs...just curious.

Otherwise, I had a Dangerous Music 2Bus(not the Lt), and sold it as I prefered the sound of my passive summing box into a DRS-2, more coloured, but more vivid and pleasing than the clean side of the dangerous box.
Old 25th March 2010
  #109
Neve Melbourn anyone?

V handy when tracking, not unshabby at mixdown /summing either..?

A central "place of worship" for you and your engineers?

Small foot print - large vibe-factor?

Studer / Neve

World domination?

What is your crew leaning towards?

Are there obvious potential freelance engineer customers / chums that you want booking time? (if so, what do they want)
Old 25th March 2010
  #110
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I used this

http://www.forsselltech.com/download...s/8chsum_2.pdf

Took me about an hour to put together.
Old 25th March 2010
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
...I want a summer with muscle so far I'm looking at the Chandler and the Inward Connections. Anyone use both? Other ideas?
James we bought the Inward Connections 690 summing amp last summer and have been very pleased with it's impact on our mixes. Since you are in LA, I know Steve Firlotte or the guys at VK would be glad to provide you with a demo unit to try out and I think you should compare against your Chandler experience.

However, your Studer thread is partially responsible for inspiring me to buy a by a MCI multi-track recorder and now I am looking for a small format console. Like you I have spent too much money on my studio recently and money is definitely a factor in what I can buy right now.

From an outside perspective you are in the process of building a very cool, well equipped studio. In my opinion, longer-term you definitely are going to want a console that is of equal quality to your other "high-end" gear. The question is what to do in the interim....The summing mixer is definitely going to be the least expensive option for now, although with cabling and patchbay it's still easy to spend 5K - 8K.

As has already been mentioned, a variation on the approach could be the Pete's Place MKIII or the BAE 8CM. The benefits of these type devices is they have other potential for longer term uses i.e. you could create a portable rack like Nobtwiddlers for doing remote recording using the MKIII or BAE. This could be another revenue source for your studio, i.e. take your remote rack to a bands gig or rehearsal space to record them.

Good luck as you work through this...You do have a lot going on, new baby, new studio.
Best,
Tim Cochran
Old 25th March 2010
  #112
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funka's Avatar
Quote:
I used this
http://www.forsselltech.com/download...s/8chsum_2.pdf
Took me about an hour to put together.
Yes, I also used this PDF file, but not only. Would you mind sharing the resistor values and number of channels you ended up choosing?

Sorry for being a little off topic. If it annoys to much, we can continue by mp if someone prefer...but I thought It might be interesting.

PS: I listened to some titles on your myspace, sounds nice!
Old 25th March 2010
  #113
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andychamp's Avatar
Since I started recording with computers I've moved from purely ITB, through ITB with hardware inserts, to my current setup that adds a console to the equation.
I feel that current combo gives me the best of both worlds.
And while I could always improve the quality of some of the elements (faster comp./better desk, etc..), I have all the elements I need.

The console definitely helped shift my focus back towards the ears and away from the eyes. And the lack of hardware automation helped bring back a sense of occasion, performance and uniqueness to the mixes.

I'm not sure if a simple summing box would have achieved that.
Old 25th March 2010
  #114
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Before you spend 7 grand on a Chandler, look at this -
Studer 970 16 x 4 Console (used)

If I had the Money, how rad would this be?? -
API 3288 Classic Console (Used) | VintageKing.com

Heres just the link to all the used consoles at VK -
Consoles | Used | VintageKing.com




That Studer desk has had me itching for months now, just thinking about it.
Old 25th March 2010
  #115
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player 1

James, I thought I would jump in here! I've been going through the same decision making process of ITB, Hybrid, or console. I agonized over what to do . I decided for me that nothing beats a good old high quality console! I've been ITB for 10 years doing a lot of post work and music. I've got some really quality mixes from ITB but I too have felt a little something missing. I've tried the summing thing, I currently run an API 2500 on the mix buss and I really like what it does. Having said that I opted for a 40 channel Raindirk Symphony LN1, it should be here shortly! I picked up a Command 8 to control my PT automation and I will use the console for the big hump after PT. The console does have fader and mute automation but I'm not sure if I will use it or not. I decided for my business that the large format console is a great center piece for the control room and will have a positive effect in my studio. I agree with Thrillfactor about it being a center piece for client gathering and a creative catalyst. Clients who don't really understand are wowed and the ones that do understand that your are serious about you're craft! Good quality consoles can be had for an attractive prices these days. I will have the new setup in and installed in about thirty days so I'll let you know what results I get! FWIW, I was in the same camp as Tony, SSL, Neve, a lot of maintenance, heat, and expense. I couldn't afford those consoles, I didn't have the space for an AC room and did want to responsibility of the high maintenance. The Symphony is noted for much lower maintenance, low heat etc.
Old 25th March 2010
  #116
Gear Head
 

was just checking out James' website and looks like he got the chandler.

I'm sure you'll dig it James.
Old 25th March 2010
  #117
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post

The studio console in the control room is traditionally like the family dining table in the home. When it comes down to tracking or mix time its the place where everyone comes together to convene their ideas. I know that scares some people around here and seems strange for those who like working alone all the time and just emailing mixes back and forth, but there is something magical that happens when everyone comes together and locks the subconscious around the tablet.
Thrill, out of 13,000 + posts this is without a doubt the greatest thing you've ever posted.
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

-R
Old 25th March 2010
  #118
Gear Addict
Just a quick newbie question.

Do most people using summing boxes and who are using outboard compressors while mixing ITB (DAW) avoid placing the compressor between the DAW and the summing box due to the varying volume levels which would change the compression effect? Am I correct in this assumption? If so, would they instead prefer to place the compressor as a DAW h/w insert pre-fader to avoid influencing the compressor with changes in level?

Thanks
Aqua
Old 26th March 2010
  #119
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 View Post
Just a quick newbie question.

Do most people using summing boxes and who are using outboard compressors while mixing ITB (DAW) avoid placing the compressor between the DAW and the summing box due to the varying volume levels which would change the compression effect? Am I correct in this assumption? If so, would they instead prefer to place the compressor as a DAW h/w insert pre-fader to avoid influencing the compressor with changes in level?
Yes, you're correct. I have a bunch of hardware comps/FX/etc inserted in Logic's I/O plugs on channels and Auxes. Then gain changes are handled properly by the compressors. Once my ToneBuss arrives, I'll still have my Foote on the 2-bus but it will be on the output of the TB before the mix is captured.
Old 26th March 2010
  #120
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Absolute's Avatar
 

Wow..some really good posts by everyone...Thrill..nice stuff

I have always argued that a good ear can overcome anything a summing box or console can do as long as you most of the available tools in the box.

However, for people arguing that James shouldnt bother with a summing box...man thats missing the whole point of workflow. You use what makes your mixes the best(within your budget). It made his mixes better and he didnt have to go through many of the things you have to do itb to get there. Its a no brainer.

The only thing I can add for people who want to stay ITB but cant hear, at this point in their journey, what consoles and summers do that is beneficial---Get a hold of the individual ITB tracks, the individual console or summing tracks and LOOK at them. Alert..no dumbass comments about looking at waveforms allowed

You will see, if the summer was pushed that the transients are a bit lower and as a result are fatter. Depending on the mix you will see that compression has taken place and distortion has been added.

I have done this and it is completely obvious what has happened. No magic process has occurred. No magic fairy pushed things around and created more depth. Remember Im saying to look to the people who cant hear whats happening on the tracks. Now, if your familiar with your ITB tools you will be able to copy that process to some degree and this so called magic will be nothing more than a waveform change.

When looking and listening to the whole mix You will some summers will actually bring up your bass, make your snare hit and vocal wider. Processes you could have done when actually mixing it. Yes, they are more work than just running it through a device---so weigh that. But this business is about hearing and as long as you go around thinking its magic you wont know how to craft your tracks exactly the way you want them in any medium.

It is quite easy to See compression on a waveform and you will find that is exactly what is happening along with one device imparting its flavor to all tracks which help tint the mix--making it appear more cohesive. People know how to do that ITB as well it just technically harder.
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