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Questions regarding consoles, summing boxes and ITB mixing. Consoles
Old 24th March 2010
  #31
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
I think it was a very good decision.
Why don´t you use it for mixing? I think the EQs are very usefull.
Yes. I'd say it was an excellent decision if you got a good price. thumbsupthumbsup

The EQ's on the Orion ARE great. I prefer ITB for a variety of reasons.
Old 24th March 2010
  #32
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I contacted this guy- FILTEK BFE 16 Channel Vintage Mixer SUMMING AMP - eBay (item 260568627054 end time Mar-24-10 05:13:01 PDT)

He quoted me a 32 channel dsub in on rear with mono/steroe inputs on front for around $1500. He even said he would put a Tranny bypass switch on it, so I could make my own tranny box for different tones. Therefore I can get actual "vintage" trannies for different sounds, and put some good Jensens on there for a SSL type sound. I want the shadow hills, but dont need the preamps or the price tag. This mixer is all vintage German broadcast gear. The haufe transformers are gonna give a old German broadcast tone!!! At that price its a steal!!! I think I'm gonna go for it!!!
Old 24th March 2010
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post

I know the ultimate is to get a console but I just don't have the money right now.

Thanks,
James
For some reason everyone is suggesting a console but is over looking the statement in bold above. Also not just any console will really make it worth it. A console choice is such a personal decision that you don't want to really fu*k up.
Old 24th March 2010
  #34
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DONNX's Avatar
 

May I suggest. Mix, Mix, Mix, Mix, Mix until you are happy and know your gear and room like the back of your hand brother James. You got the tools to succeed. I would personally take whats in JJP or CLA's head (or any top mix engineer out in this day (knowledge/experience in the art of mixing) over any piece of additional gear from what you have already. For me. Knowing my gear, getting to know my room and monitors was the big part of the battle.
Old 24th March 2010
  #35
Gear Nut
 

summing

I have the Lynx Aurora converters and two API 8200s summed through a 7600. I think this setup has dramatically improved on the very problem you're talking about. Granted, my ITB mixes can sound really good too, but summing through the API imparts warmth and energy to the mix....the bottom end is palpably more alive and you no longer have to struggle to get the kick and bass to sit right against each other. I disagree that transferring back and forth to tape will make everything better, although bass and drums can benefit greatly from "tape compression". As always...."whatever works".
Old 24th March 2010
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbakron View Post
Here is the real question!!!!!! I know everybody says "just get a console" - well duh. Do you have $60 grand I can borrow??

this is what it comes down to-

option 1) Cheap Console with input trannies on every channel, and totally crappy eqs and parts. But because of the amount of trannies, it sounds good. Mix to tape!!$ 8,000
Like I said, TLAudio M4. It's cheap, it sounds nice, and it does everything you want.

The EQ's are actually SUPER, and the pre-amps love being driven. You can put them firmly in the red and pull back on the green knob to get a good level in PT whilst the pre-amp gets some old fashioned clipping on it.
Old 24th March 2010
  #37
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

James,

Don't rush! With a family and all, you gotta take it slowly. I also agree that not any console will do -- it's got to be the right kind for you and your genre/working style. Spend some time researching/trying out/listening&working on various ones like the API1608, SSL, etc.

I really tried to go ITB but went back to hybrid/console since it's just way too much fun and easier to get the tones you want!

See about financing a console too... I got a loan from the bank for my AWS900 plus a bunch of other gear when I upgraded my studio four or five years ago.
Old 24th March 2010
  #38
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Could I just about match my mix ITB??? Short answer, yes! However it took a few extra hours and quite a few tricks to achieve a similar mix. So it is "doable" to a certain degree but it is so much easier with a console... and immediate. This works for me... however, YMMV.

best, Larry
Larry, I felt that way initially as well, but now, I can achieve what I'm after much faster ITB. It's all what you get used to. I've been mixing ITB (or more correctly MOSTLY ITB, with a little hybrid on the inserts) for about 5 years now. Either way can work, but I could never go back to straight analog for my mixing requirements. I'm ITB for a variety of reasons, and it fits my workflow and sound requirements better.

I will always own a console however......
Old 24th March 2010
  #39
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbakron View Post
Now could someone explain why a "high end" conole sounds $40 grand better than option 2 please!?!?!?!?! How is a cheap console gonna sound better than a "High end" summing unit!?!?!?!
Thanks
A console is not merely about "sound". It's a workflow. A lifestyle. A summing box is not.
Old 24th March 2010
  #40
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

I had a similar problem and decided to go hybrid ITB/OTB about a year ago. I'm quite happy with a Midas Venice 160 bused into a 1RU Speck X.Sum. The Midas routing ties in outboard gear and the Speck is clean, tall and fast like an SSL. I can direct tracks from the Aurora16 to either or both for summing.

Now I'm building a 1RU box for line-level transformer splitting, with steel Cinemags that can be inserted on any line or split to patch signal in two directions, i.e. to a track, outboard, a group bus, or even the 2bus. The transformers sweeten up as they're pushed and sound great even with a light touch. I know because I've tested them but just haven't finished the 8-ch box yet. Mixes sound deep and wide, and they glue up like a big console, yet with little money invested. All the pieces even fit in a little sidecar-like rolling rack.

I still use plugins, but some outboard options are DBX 162SL, Pendulum OCL-2, Hedd 192, Bricasti M7, Manely/Langevin MiniMassive EQ, and a Kurzweil Rumour.

One thing nice is automating pan, envelopes etc. ITB, then run it all out thru the OTB gear to print.
Old 24th March 2010
  #41
Gear Nut
 

MichaelPatrick, that sounds like a pretty nifty box you're building. Is that based on a kit or something of your own design?
Old 24th March 2010
  #42
alk
Gear Nut
my experience....
Apogee 16x going to 16 channel Tonelux summing, Alan Smart C2 or Manley VariMu, Hammer EQ, Cranesong Hedd 192 back into Pro Tools...
huge, smooth and punchy sound... can't go wrong.
Old 24th March 2010
  #43
Gear Addict
 

Hey James, have you had a look at the thermionic culture Fat Bustard - 12 channel mixer?
Old 24th March 2010
  #44
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

I spent the day at a couple of studios checking out summing options. I'm glad I did it. At one of the studios we mixed a song and summed it out through only 8 channels of the Chandler 16X2 mixer and then took the identical mix and went ITB, matched the levels. Absolutely no comparison. The Chandler 8 buss summed mix smoke the ITB mix. It had, tone, width and dimension. I also really liked what the chandler did to the sound of the heavies, vocals and snare specifically. The guitars summed out had a tone, a cohesive grunt that I loved, the snare was just plain fatter and darker which I also loved and the female vocal, ala Evenesence was so much more pleasing to the ear then the ITB. The computer summing did not like her voice and made it plasticky sounding. The other thing that jumped out instantly was the lesser depth of the ITB.

So that's it, I'm gonna get another DA16X that will be dedicated to the summing box and still do my mixing, automation and hardware inserts in PT. Not sure what summer to get, the Chandler definitely rocked, it was big and heavy sounding. The owner of it said if you don't drive the Chandler to hard it actually gets pretty transparent and he played us many mixes he had done. I want a summer with muscle so far I'm looking at the Chandler and the Inward Connections. Anyone use both? Other ideas?
Old 24th March 2010
  #45
James.. what you really need is a console.. you want to push that master section.. that is the sound you are looking for.

safe the money and get yourself an SSL. we did a shootout. well.. at the end it's a matter of taste.. I recommend checking out the SSL.

you have a Phoenixaudio nicerizer don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
I spent the day at a couple of studios checking out summing options. I'm glad I did it. At one of the studios we mixed a song and summed it out through only 8 channels of the Chandler 16X2 mixer and then took the identical mix and went ITB, matched the levels. Absolutely no comparison. The Chandler 8 buss summed mix smoke the ITB mix. It had, tone, width and dimension. I also really liked what the chandler did to the sound of the heavies, vocals and snare specifically. The guitars summed out had a tone, a cohesive grunt that I loved, the snare was just plain fatter and darker which I also loved and the female vocal, ala Evenesence was so much more pleasing to the ear then the ITB. The computer summing did not like her voice and made it plasticky sounding. The other thing that jumped out instantly was the lesser depth of the ITB.

So that's it, I'm gonna get another DA16X that will be dedicated to the summing box and still do my mixing, automation and hardware inserts in PT. Not sure what summer to get, the Chandler definitely rocked, it was big and heavy sounding. The owner of it said if you don't drive the Chandler to hard it actually gets pretty transparent and he played us many mixes he had done. I want a summer with muscle so far I'm looking at the Chandler and the Inward Connections. Anyone use both? Other ideas?
Old 24th March 2010
  #46
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
For some reason everyone is suggesting a console but is over looking the statement in bold above. Also not just any console will really make it worth it. A console choice is such a personal decision that you don't want to really fu*k up.
Hey James, I PM'd you, I'm literally developing a mastering software for people who can't afford a desk.

Shoot me a line if you want to get emailed some wav samples.
Old 24th March 2010
  #47
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Hey James, I PM'd you, I'm literally developing a mastering software for people who can't afford a desk.

Shoot me a line if you want to get emailed some wav samples.
Cool man send them to [email protected]
Old 24th March 2010
  #48
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Thanks!

I'll be sending you files tomorrow evening after my session, with a detailed description of how works. =)

Hope it helps!
Old 24th March 2010
  #49
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Hey James, I PM'd you, I'm literally developing a mastering software for people who can't afford a desk.

Shoot me a line if you want to get emailed some wav samples.
Mastering software to replace a desk???

There's mastering software out that's suppose to replicate the actual hardware and that **** doesn't do it... how the hell is software going to replace a desk?

What kind of desk? A Neve, a SSL, a Quad Eight, a Helios etc... how is one app going to emulate all these desk?

Please explain.

Sorry but I'll have to hear this to believe it.
Old 24th March 2010
  #50
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Larry, I felt that way initially as well, but now, I can achieve what I'm after much faster ITB. It's all what you get used to. I've been mixing ITB (or more correctly MOSTLY ITB, with a little hybrid on the inserts) for about 5 years now. Either way can work, but I could never go back to straight analog for my mixing requirements. I'm ITB for a variety of reasons, and it fits my workflow and sound requirements better.

I will always own a console however......
Hi Bill,

If I was doing mixing for a living now I'd learn the ITB method for sure... especially with todays budgets.

However I'm very old school and work fast on all projects... I like to get a mix happening right away... usually while I'm tracking. I like the separation a console gives (that you have to "fight" to get out of the DAW). I like outboard processors better than plug-ins.

Also I'm selfish right now and this whole room is just for me...I have the gear and am use to it... sort of, as I'm so far retro on my recording gear I'm having to re-learn some things again!

I keep the latest and greatest gear in my mastering room... in my recording room, with the exception of the DAW and that one PCM 60 nothing going past 1969 as far as equipment goes. I love my 1960's studio!

However, it's the 1950's tube based recording studio I'm building right now that really "floats my boat"... wait till that's done.
Old 24th March 2010
  #51
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabehr View Post
MichaelPatrick, that sounds like a pretty nifty box you're building. Is that based on a kit or something of your own design?
It's 8 Cinemag trifiler steel transformers in an a little 1RU chassis I got from a local used electronics store. There will be three TRS plugs in the back for each XFMR, one input and two output. That makes patching flexible. Across each output winding put a 1.8k or 2.2k resistor to load it a bit.

If someone wants a simple 1:1 (no split) they can get a 1:1 from Cinemag or use a quadfiler XFMR and just connect the two windings on each side together in parallel.

Iron makes a huge difference. I bet that's much of what James and others hear in the Chandler and other summing boxes like it.
Old 24th March 2010
  #52
Gear Head
 

Neotek? 24 channels for under 20k. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

Sytek Audio Systems - Neotek Élan II Table Top Console


Otherwise I'd say keep buying a bunch 500 series eqs and using the phoenix until you can afford an empty 1608, then fill it up.
Old 24th March 2010
  #53
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Tony Maserati uses the Chandler as his main summing mixer, but also has a Dangerous 2 bus and a 10 channel Neve sidecar that both feed stereo sums to a pair of ins on the Chandler, so altogether he's running I think 48 outs from PT to the three units, of which the Chandler is the final summer.
That is how Michael's set up was last night when I checked out the Chandler, he also had a D2 Buss along with it.
Old 24th March 2010
  #54
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mu6gr8's Avatar
Loving the Chandler Rack Mixer and the Dangerous 2-Bus!
Old 24th March 2010
  #55
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mu6gr8 View Post
Loving the Chandler Rack Mixer and the Dangerous 2-Bus!
Yeah man. Thanks so much for helping me out last night. Michael took the whole night to show me his mixing setup and do a quick mix of one my songs through 8 channels of the Chandler and then bring it back to itb. It was the only way for me to hear it first hand for myself. He bounced me a disc and listened to it on the way home. For me the Chandler mix killed, Michael's itb mix was cool too but the Chandler mix had more everything and felt more like a record. I also loved the way it colored the heavies and sweetened the lead vocal. Thanks Michael you're a God send.

As was Tony Shepperd, I spent the afternoon at his place listening to my mixes and running things through the Pete's Place MarkVIII, that thing has endless possibilities; tracking or mixing. We stemmed out some of his work and mixed and matched the routing to use the various eqs and comps he had loaded in the MarkVIII, ridiculous! That thing is modular heaven and Tony's work is awesome.

Both you guys helped me out more then you will ever know and what makes gearslutz a great place. Thanks.

James
Old 24th March 2010
  #56
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jjblair's Avatar
A summing box will not give you that thing you are looking for. Not all consoles will, either.

You can get amazing results ITB. It just takes a lot more work than a console.

BTW, if you dig up a thread I made on PSW, I think I pretty much conclusively proved that summing OTB is not superior to ITB, if you gain stage properly.
Old 24th March 2010
  #57
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
A summing box will not give you that thing you are looking for. Not all consoles will, either.

You can get amazing results ITB. It just takes a lot more work than a console.

BTW, if you dig up a thread I made on PSW, I think I pretty much conclusively proved that summing OTB is not superior to ITB, if you gain stage properly.
From what I experienced last night the Chandler made a pretty big difference and it gave the guitars, snare and vocals a tone that was pleasing to the my ears.
Old 24th March 2010
  #58
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Oroz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
BTW, if you dig up a thread I made on PSW, I think I pretty much conclusively proved that summing OTB is not superior to ITB, if you gain stage properly.
Hey J.J. what's the thread's name?

Thanks.
Old 24th March 2010
  #59
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
A console is not merely about "sound". It's a workflow. A lifestyle. A summing box is not.
Exactly! I was just about to point that out. So many folks get hung up on a console being some giant "tonal betterizer". I think Bill will agree with me here. A console is about workflow and ergonomics as much or more than it is about sound....IMHO.

Brad
Old 24th March 2010
  #60
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ddageek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
Exactly! I was just about to point that out. So many folks get hung up on a console being some giant "tonal betterizer". I think Bill will agree with me here. A console is about workflow and ergonomics as much or more than it is about sound....IMHO.

Brad
I agree the other to remember is that a summing box /summing mixer is just console cut down to fit someone's own work flow! if you build one to fit every situation you have a console!
Many of us grew up with it some can get away from it !
But james I still say if you go with a summing system try Tonelux if you can build what works for you and even a console!
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