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Trident or Neumann console? Consoles
Old 14th March 2010
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Trident or Neumann console?

I am looking at two different consoles here in Europe.

I will be using it for tracking directly to a Lyrec 2" 16 track tape recorder, and sometimes for summing mixes from Pro Tools HD.
Right now I have 2 x Telefunken V76 and 8 x Telefunken V676a preamps and 8 x Neumann W491a EQ's. In many situations 10 preamps is just not enough for tracking a live band (whether it's for tape or Pro Tools), and I need the faders, busses and other mixer facilities when recording to tape.

The two consoles are:

Trident Fleximix, 20 channels, 4 busses, 2 compressors, EQ's on every channel.
This is a nice and small mixer and it looks extremely simple, easy and straight forward to use.
The original bad IC's and PSU has been upgraded to better ones, and it's been completely serviced.
$8,200

or

NEUMANN Broadcast Mixing Console with 18 Inputs, 4 busses, 15 x V476b preamps, 20 x W492 EQ, 4 x U473A Compressor, 4x NTP 277-400 Stereo-Peakmeter, NTP Correlatorh.
This is propably better overall quality components than the Fleximix, but I also heard that the preamps sound very sterile and clean, which is not nessecarily what I want... And it's a lot more $$$
$15,000

Is the Neumann console definitely worth the extra dollars?

Please let me know your thoughts about these two consoles.
Old 14th March 2010
  #2
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I am also thinking about using my 10 racked Telefunken preamps instead of the preamps on the first 10 channels on the console, but still use the rest of the console, because the Telefunken sound so good, and porpably better than the preamps in both the Trident and the Neumann..
Is that possible?
Old 14th March 2010
  #3
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LeMauce's Avatar
Neumann... not becoz its a "neumann".
Becoz broadcast console's from europe (don't know about other parts of the world but I think its the same) have always (9outof10) on all inputs and outputs, transformers on it.
Its for having a galvanized separation signal path and much more secure clear signal before its amped in different stage's and shot in to the air for diffusion. Can you imagine a small buzz from a bad cable of induction of the electric cables of lights on the stage/tv set and after put true diff, console's and amp's that buzz could mean static 40db of noise on the end of the trip.
So yeah, the Neumann would be clean in the sound path. Putt what you put in, you get out of it.
Old 14th March 2010
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMauce View Post
Neumann... not becoz its a "neumann".
Becoz broadcast console's from europe (don't know about other parts of the world but I think its the same) have always (9outof10) on all inputs and outputs, transformers on it.
Its for having a galvanized separation signal path and much more secure clear signal before its amped in different stage's and shot in to the air for diffusion. Can you imagine a small buzz from a bad cable of induction of the electric cables of lights on the stage/tv set and after put true diff, console's and amp's that buzz could mean static 40db of noise on the end of the trip.
So yeah, the Neumann would be clean in the sound path. Putt what you put in, you get out of it.
thanks for your input LeMauce!
The built quality of broadcast stuff has always been extremely good.
I just don't know if I really need a super clean console. I want it to "sound" good as well...
But if the Neumann is in a completely different (better) league than the Fleximix in terms of quality and sonics then it might be worth buying instead of the Fleximix...


Has anyone tried both consoles?
Old 15th March 2010
  #5
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SP2016's Avatar
Buy ANYTHING but do not buy a Fleximix.
Comparing any Neumann with a Fleximix is like comparing a real car with a Dinky Toy.
Old 15th March 2010
  #6
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Dr Benway's Avatar
 

I also say go the Neumann. Broadcast stuff is, as a rule of thumb, built like a tank. I've not used the pres but I have the same eq's which I like a lot. And pre amps, after all, are just a single link in the sonic taste palate at our disposal. I'm sure their cleanliness wouldn't be as sterile once you got your head/ears around them. It might take a little bit to get it to suit your needs in your studio but between the 2 choices here I thinks its a no brainer.. For me anyway!!
Best of luck with you decision and keep us posted.
Old 15th March 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP2016 View Post
Buy ANYTHING but do not buy a Fleximix.
Comparing any Neumann with a Fleximix is like comparing a real car with a Dinky Toy.
thumbsup
Old 15th March 2010
  #8
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Thanks for your replies!
is the fleximix really THAT bad?
even if I use my 10 telefunken preamps instead of the built in??
Then I would just use the faders, busses and maybe the 2 Fleximix compressors.

The seller of the Neumann console just told me that there are no direct outs on the console because you didn't needed that in a broadcast console. He says I can just use the insert as direct out, but then I can't use the insert for other things...
He also says that this is not a multi tracking console...?
It's got 4 master channels.

Here is a part of his email to me:

"This Console is not a Multi Track Console.
It is possible to switch 9 Groups to 4 Master.
The input to V476 is switchable LINE/MICRO per channel
It has 4 mono and one stereo Aux per channel
It has 2 more Eq´s ( 18 inputs but 20 Eq´s )"

I guess that from reading that it would not be good for tracking right? I am confused...
Old 16th March 2010
  #9
well, you should just someone let it modify..

no big deal.

the neumann kills.
Old 16th March 2010
  #10
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SP2016's Avatar
Neumann is a name that may be discussed respectfully in a forum that is called "High end".
Fleximix is a name that does not really come in the distant neighbourhood of "High end"....

And for the Fleximix limiter/compressors: These also were sold by Trident as a stand-alone 19" unit.
Not bad considering the limited things you could do with these (apart from adding distortion).
In fact Trident has had two really great console types: The A and B range.
After that period they went for the money instead of the music and probably went out of business as a result of that.

Putting 10 Telefunken pre-amps before a Trident Fleximix is hilarious !
Do you throw your food in the trash bin before tasting it ?
Give the Fleximix to a young boy in your neighbourhood and give him the opportunity to discover later what real quality sound is.
Namely: Anything else.....
Old 16th March 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SP2016 View Post
Neumann is a name that may be discussed respectfully in a forum that is called "High end".
Fleximix is a name that does not really come in the distant neighbourhood of "High end"....

And for the Fleximix limiter/compressors: These also were sold by Trident as a stand-alone 19" unit.
Not bad considering the limited things you could do with these (apart from adding distortion).
In fact Trident has had two really great console types: The A and B range.
After that period they went for the money instead of the music and probably went out of business as a result of that.

Putting 10 Telefunken pre-amps before a Trident Fleximix is hilarious !
Do you throw your food in the trash bin before tasting it ?
Give the Fleximix to a young boy in your neighbourhood and give him the opportunity to discover later what real quality sound is.
Namely: Anything else.....
thanks for your inputs.
I must say I find it kind of hilarious to read how much this console is hated and how extremely bad it should sounds.
Bernard Butler (producer of Duffy) and Radioahead both own Trident Fleximix consoles and use them everyday producing platinum selling records. Their albums does not remind me of trash cans at all.
I hear you, the Neumann is a finer console, and it makes sense. This is not an A or B console. But I find it hard to believe that the Fleximix should be a completely useles piece of trash!!
Remember, this one has got new IC's and a new and a much better PSU. Plus transformer balanced in/out on every channel. Why so bad??
Old 16th March 2010
  #12
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Dr Benway's Avatar
 

I guess this is the dilemma of buying a console.. While I can't speak for either of these consoles (which may make my post completely redundant) I can speak from owning an ex broadcast desk.. For all the reasons LeMauce stated.. Generally they are built to such high standards with so much redundancy built in.. The Fleximix may have upgraded psu's but the Neumann would have had GREAT psu's to begin with.. ect ect..
Like I said. It may take some time and effort to make it fit your needs in your studio and as George said, have a competent tech modify and make it fit.. Not a huge task really.
Again.. Best of luck with you decision.
Old 16th March 2010
  #13
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SP2016's Avatar
The fact that producers produce platinum records is not really fully depending on the equipment they use.
One cannot directly make the link between talents and tools.
What I mean to say is that these producers can even produce platinum records using a cassette tape recorder.
And it may be that these producers use the color of the Fleximix sound to meet their requirements.
I did not mean to say that a Fleximix is trash, I only wanted to make clear that there really is a difference between high tech and semi professional equipment.
And that I considered putting Telefunken pre-amps before a Fleximix a bad joke.
New IC's, capacitors and new psu only make it a better console of a bad design.
Of course it is your own choice.
I have worked on Trident A,B,Series80,Fleximix,Trimix and VFM consoles as a recording engineer and consider the Fleximix as a typical Trident failure.
Finally I would like to mention that transformers at the inputs and outputs are not always improving the signal path.
And in the case of Fleximix I am absolutely sure about that.
Old 9th July 2013
  #14
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Neumann n20 sombody had docs schematics

I dont know how to make work the 48 volts phantom power
best regards
Old 10th July 2013
  #15
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Stitch333's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarman View Post
thanks for your inputs.
I must say I find it kind of hilarious to read how much this console is hated and how extremely bad it should sounds.
Bernard Butler (producer of Duffy) and Radioahead both own Trident Fleximix consoles and use them everyday producing platinum selling records.
When joe 'tha butcher' nicolo's desk was down, he pulled out a short loaded fleximix that he liked. My friend Will Schillinger likes'em too. I've used A range, flexi, and 80b. Nothing is like an A range tho.
Old 10th July 2013
  #16
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Matti's Avatar
Just to remind you, Telefunken didn't manufacture their stuff themselves but rather
had them made by likes Neumann, Klangfilm, AKG, etc. offering complete solutions for the industry under their brand -So the Neumann amps might be from the same source?
My impression at least...

Matti
Old 11th July 2013
  #17
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitch333 View Post
When joe 'tha butcher' nicolo's desk was down, he pulled out a short loaded fleximix that he liked. My friend Will Schillinger likes'em too. I've used A range, flexi, and 80b. Nothing is like an A range tho.
Or the Trident TSM... right in between the A Range and an 80B.

Funny Neumann consoles didn't do much for any of the old time engineers, you always wanted something musical as opposed to clean (which the Neumanns were). That said a Flexmix is no A Range or even close to an 80B (nor is a 24 or 65 for that matter).

Have you considered an old Calrec or an Audix board since you are in Europe?
Old 13th July 2013
  #18
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i dont know the trident. i also never worked on a neumann console but im very familiar with the v476b preamp and to me its not very nice. i find it very bland. not clean in a good way. it sounds kind of dead to me. compared to your v76 and v676 you'd be rather dissapointed with the v476s. they are not in the same ballpark (to me at least).
Old 13th July 2013
  #19
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i dont know the trident. i also never worked on a neumann console but im very familiar with the v476b preamp and to me its not very nice. i find it very bland. not clean in a good way. it sounds kind of dead to me. compared to your v76 and v676 you'd be rather dissapointed with the v476s. they are not in the same ballpark (to me at least).
+1 Stringent in a less than musical tone.
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