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How different is the Neve 33609/JD from the original 33609? Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 28th October 2005
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Local 47's Avatar
 

How different is the Neve 33609/JD from the original 33609?

Are they actually the same compressor? I know they share the same 340 output card? And I know the new versions have the neon rocker switch, and maybe a few more cosmetic or operational alterations (remote cont), but what about the sound path? Are both sound paths identical? (except for the aging of course)

Cheers
Old 28th October 2005
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Local 47
Are they actually the same compressor? I know they share the same 340 output card? And I know the new versions have the neon rocker switch, and maybe a few more cosmetic or operational alterations (remote cont), but what about the sound path? Are both sound paths identical? (except for the aging of course)

Cheers

The new one(JD) to me is the best sounding incarnation they've made to date.
Old 28th October 2005
  #3
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Local 47's Avatar
 

Can't say it doesn't sound good, but are they the same? Let me elaborate: when Neve came out with 33609/c and subsequently with the 33609/J, most people felt they sounded worse than the originals. Now, with the advent of the JD, a bunch of those very same people seem fall in love with the comp again. Hence my question? Is this all due to this 340 output card? (cause this is the only difference with the J)
Old 28th October 2005
  #4
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I'm a hair trigger's pull away from buying the JD..
It does sound great. ...tighter,more clarity than the old 2264's I'm using.
Old 28th October 2005
  #5
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I just bought the JD. Threw it across the 2buss on an R&B tune and it was beautiful. Love that Neve sound. I think a Pheonix and a 33609 would be the best of both worlds. But then again, I'm still waiting on the Shadow Hills compressor, who knows...
Old 28th October 2005
  #6
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Local 47's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
I'm a hair trigger's pull away from buying the JD..
It does sound great. ...tighter,more clarity than the old 2264's I'm using.
So, do you know if the guts are identical to the original 33609?
Old 28th October 2005
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Local 47
So, do you know if the guts are identical to the original 33609?

The main differences between the C and the new J/D:

1) 340 output card-big difference

If a person can't hear the difference than they shouldn't be really using the stuff. heh


2)Power supply-all the new Reissue racks seem to have something going on with the power supply.

The modules just sound better in them.

You can hear it in the J/D.

3) The parts-caps and resistors look exactly as the original

In a compressor this is very important.


More important to me sonically than a when doing a mic pre.


By the way i have a friend who has both(as well as some 2264's)and he is looking to dump his 33609 C(and he will throw in some AB output cards as well).
Old 28th October 2005
  #8
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Tetness's Avatar
He's selling his 33609JD? How much?
Old 28th October 2005
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
The main differences between the C and the new J/D:

1) 340 output card-big difference.
Hi

Not wanting to be pedantic, but it's a 440! The difference to a 340 is minimal though.

The first 33609's used the motherboard from a 33314 (with Marinair LO1173 output transformer) and a 1777 power supply which was discrete transistor and rated at some teeny current... certainly no more than 500mA.

I almost begged Neve to update the design while I was there but they insisted that it would change the sound (and was costly... but no more costly than they were to make)... and they changed it to the C after I left, incorporating most of my changes.

The C is a different motherboard but similar circuit, the main difference being that it used IDC connections. It used my recommended 317 IC regulator and a better, toroidal, ac transformer. I think it went over to Carnhill transformers.

The J for Japan used those damn great buttons that have to drive relays.... my original toggle switches handled the signal without relays... there's progress!

I have no idea what changes were included in recent times but I'm equally sure that swapping an IC BA640 for a discrete BA440 was not the main reason for a change in sound.

My guess is that it's a transformer improvement... but that's just a guess.

Old 28th October 2005
  #10
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T
The J for Japan used those damn great buttons that have to drive relays.... my original toggle switches handled the signal without relays... there's progress!


My guess is that it's a transformer improvement... but that's just a guess.

Hey Geoff, sorry I haven't called you back..I'll call you at the shop today.


The JD will just have to hold us over until your comp is ready ! heh
Old 28th October 2005
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetness
He's selling his 33609JD? How much?

He is selling his 33609/C not the JD.

What are you crazy?

Old 28th October 2005
  #12
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The Alamo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T
Hi

Not wanting to be pedantic, but it's a 440! The difference to a 340 is minimal though.

The first 33609's used the motherboard from a 33314 (with Marinair LO1173 output transformer) and a 1777 power supply which was discrete transistor and rated at some teeny current... certainly no more than 500mA.

The C is a different motherboard but similar circuit, the main difference being that it used IDC connections. It used my recommended 317 IC regulator and a better, toroidal, ac transformer. I think it went over to Carnhill transformers.
I have no idea what changes were included in recent times but I'm equally sure that swapping an IC BA640 for a discrete BA440 was not the main reason for a change in sound.
My guess is that it's a transformer improvement... but that's just a guess.

Very interesting!! More differences to them than I would have expected. Does the new one still qualify as a 33609 then? Or more like a valuable spin off?
Are they still using the Carnhill on the new ones?
Old 28th October 2005
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alamo
Very interesting!! More differences to them than I would have expected. Does the new one still qualify as a 33609 then? Or more like a valuable spin off?
Are they still using the Carnhill on the new ones?
Hi

Yes, I believe so and Carnhill are the sole suppliers of those transformers now.

All the original 2264's, 33314's, etc used Marinair... take a peek inside and you'll see the characteristic rivetted build and large coloured label.

Old 29th October 2005
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T
Hi

Not wanting to be pedantic, but it's a 440! The difference to a 340 is minimal though.



Hi Geoff,

Not to be pedantic either AMS-Neve has this in their advertisement:

Two versions are available, the 33609/Jand the 33609/JD. Both units offer the legendary Neve sound but with enhanced internal and external I/O switching compared to the originals. The 33609/J uses similar circuits to the vintage 33609/C. The 33609/JD incorporates a 340 discreet output stage as used in the original 33609 design.

They are saying its a 340 that's in the JD.

I use a JD version here in town and can look inside to check.
Old 29th October 2005
  #15
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audioez's Avatar
 

Now I'm curious to see what's inside my 33609. although I'm 99.44% sure there's a couple of 440's under the hood.

For what it's worth I've compared the Neve 33609 to the AMS-Neve 33609J. I found the differences were in the gain stages in the compress. The limit sections seem to be comparable, but we all know that the gain in the compress has a great affect on how the limit is activated, and at the end of the day who cares, I guess I do

Old 29th October 2005
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
The 33609/JD incorporates a 340 discreet output stage as used in the original 33609 design.

They are saying its a 340 that's in the JD.

I use a JD version here in town and can look inside to check.
Geoff T and Thrillfactor,

The new 340's are actually 340C's. Robin made 340's with the fatter pins of the 440's, and called them 340C's. The new 33609J/D uses these, as do the new 1081's.

Jeff
Old 29th October 2005
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Goodman
Geoff T and Thrillfactor,

The new 340's are actually 340C's. Robin made 340's with the fatter pins of the 440's, and called them 340C's. The new 33609J/D uses these, as do the new 1081's.

Jeff
Hi

Indeed they do use fatter pins on the recent stuff.

In totally, factual, terms, the Neve site is wrong if it says they originally used 340 in their compressor because they all used 440's. What they've done is take the 340 out of their 1081 (which also had fat pins) and use it in the 33609.

All that aside, the only difference is that the 340 originally had skinny little pins and a preset pot to set the output bias while the 440 had chunky pins and an "adjust on test" resistor to set the bias. Bottom line is that the resistive value of the pot would be the same as the adjust on test resistor so there's no difference in the audio performance of either beast.

Still, I'm a stickler for facts and you won't find a 340 in a 32264, 33314 or early 33609. Imagine owning an early 33609 and seeing a pair of original 340's on EBay... one might buy them as spares based on the premise that they would fit inside and then be sorely P.O'd when one finds that they fit as snug as (excuse the Olde English ode) a dick in a bucket!

Old 3rd November 2005
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
I'm a hair trigger's pull away from buying the JD..
It does sound great. ...tighter,more clarity than the old 2264's I'm using.
Hey Roundbadge

In that other 33609 thread, I kind of got the impression the JD wasn't really doing it for you. Can I ask what changed your mind?

I'm looking hard at a 33609/JD for mix-bus use, but also thinking about Thermionic Phoenix for the same slot. I realize they're different horses, but funds are limited. If you could only get one, can I ask which it would be? I'm thinking subtle mix compression (no limiting), but with character. Not trying to replace or interfere with mastering, just kind of rounding things out at around the top 3-4db.

Feedback much appreciated.

Jules
Old 3rd November 2005
  #19
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Tetness's Avatar
I was in the same boat. I was lookinng for a stereo drum compressor. I auditioned the Neve 33609JD and fellin love with it across the mixbus. And almost immediately bought it. I also had the Pheonix on demo, which I also want. It's a tough choice. But if you want color, go Neve for the buss. Roundbadge would agree as he was here when we put them through the test. And I'll speak for him and say, he's also in love with the Neve. We negotiated a price with Vintage King to buy two.
Old 3rd November 2005
  #20
Thanks Tetness - you may just have sealed it for me. heh

33609 feelings are kind of weird. You see people raving about them, and then others going off them, saying they can't get them to work on the 2-bus and moving onto something else, and then more recently people raving again about the JD! I've only used the J, which I really liked, but I felt it was taking a little top off the mix. It does have that sound though - perhaps the JD has made the difference.

Time to dust the cobwebs off my plastic ......

Jules
Old 3rd November 2005
  #21
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I have the Shadow Hills compressor on order and have designated that to the mixbuss. But after hearing the 33609JD, I knew I had to have it, because I simply love that Neve sound. Congratulations on your decision, you will not regret it. thumbsup and by the way, if you don't already have them, consider a pair of Pultecs or VT-4s to go with the 33609JD.
Old 3rd November 2005
  #22
Woah - enough with the Gear-carrots of temptation!

Have you actually heard the Shadow Hills comp? I wasn't aware they had models in circulation yet. Are you sure it's going to be an improvement on the 33609 as a mix comp? (sorry - totally unhelpful questions! )

I'm really torn between getting a 'monster' compressor (Phoneix, Shadow Hills, VT-7, Gyraf G10 etc.) for the 2-bus, and a 'classic' compressor (33609 et. al). Part of me wants tubes, part of me wants Neve - maybe I should just sell my children and buy both!

Jules
Old 3rd November 2005
  #23
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Tetness's Avatar
Haven't heard the SH. Maybe this weekend. Is it possible for you to demo these items?
Old 3rd November 2005
  #24
I've heard or know the Smart C2, 33609, Manley VariMu, STC-8, Drawmer 1969 - a couple of others.

The others are a little trickier, although I could probably get a hold of the Thermionics Phoneix and Pendulum ES8 through a friendly distributor, but it would probably be on the basis that I'd have to take one of them!

I'm also only about a half hour from AMS Neve, so depending how amenable they are to end-user interaction, I might be able to check out the JD. I suspect that's still the way I'll go .... that or the Phoenix ........................ or the ..........
Old 4th November 2005
  #25
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailerman
Hey Roundbadge

In that other 33609 thread, I kind of got the impression the JD wasn't really doing it for you. Can I ask what changed your mind?

I'm looking hard at a 33609/JD for mix-bus use, but also thinking about Thermionic Phoenix for the same slot. I realize they're different horses, but funds are limited. If you could only get one, can I ask which it would be? I'm thinking subtle mix compression (no limiting), but with character. Not trying to replace or interfere with mastering, just kind of rounding things out at around the top 3-4db.

Feedback much appreciated.

Jules


Jules,
What kind of stuff are you doing?

Without really hearing your stuff, it's kinda hard to make any hard suggestions.

Neve..thick transformer sound, colored..
..A real Squasher/limiter from hell if you really want to go there: ROCK
I find -2 maybe -3 DB max does it with nice EQ on the ass end.
Phoenix ..nice tube color from clean to overdrive..Big with a nice sparkle and leaves the Lo end intact...Not really jonesing for a side chain on this one.
Can be very useful on everything from Rock,Pop, to R&B... hip hop,etc..could be a good "all rounder" for you to start with. ...I love it.
Been using it very happily on some Fuzzy/jangly indie rock lately.

Up until now, I usually did 2264's for drum subs,etc...
and other things on the 2 bus[fairchild SSL,smart,etc]
It took a bit of mixing into the 33609 it to get a feel for it..
after a while I found ways to make it work for me[experimenting with EQ's pre/post comp,etc]..
I really want the Shadow Hills to blow my mind ,so I can put off buying a 33609 for a while..
...taking quite a while to actually hear it though.

I mostly do guitar based rock stuff and could cover a lotta bases with just a C-2,Neve and Phoenix.
Let's face it..I really just want them all..God help me.

heh$$#@!%^(*
Old 4th November 2005
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Neve..thick transformer sound, colored..
..A real Squasher/limiter from hell if you really want to go there: ROCK
If you think its thick sounding wait till you try the 2254.

You want to talk thick? heh

Hey maybe AMS-Neve will re-release a pair.

I'd be curious to check it out.

I got a vintage pair, but a more modern and updated pair that sound like their new reissue would be bananas in my rack!!!
Old 4th November 2005
  #27
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Cue Geoff Tanner... heh
Old 4th November 2005
  #28
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Tetness's Avatar
Thrill, now you got me droolin'. What a great idea. Someone call AMS!!!!
Old 4th November 2005
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
Jules,
What kind of stuff are you doing?

Without really hearing your stuff, it's kinda hard to make any hard suggestions.
Hey Roundbadge - thanks for your post.

I do dance production, some remix work, a bit of pop writing, and alot of TV work (fairly edgy percussive stuff, mainly beats driven).

I'm NOT looking for something to mash the heck out of a mix - everything gets properly mastered elsewhere. I'm looking to just round off the top couple of db's, and a add a little colour and cohesion to what are essentially ProTools mixes.

I think this is one of those situations where there's no right/wrong answer - really you want two pieces of gear, and choosing just one is basically impossible. They're very different flavours I realize, but I guess I was hoping for a lead on which would be the best to live with long term.

Anyway, today's decision time, I have three mixes to deliver next week which would be perfect testing grounds. May try and get hold of both on the basis I send one back end of the week (yeah right!!) ....... heh heh heh

Jules
Old 4th November 2005
  #30
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailerman
Hey Roundbadge - thanks for your post.

I do dance production, some remix work, a bit of pop writing, and alot of TV work (fairly edgy percussive stuff, mainly beats driven).

I'm NOT looking for something to mash the heck out of a mix - everything gets properly mastered elsewhere. I'm looking to just round off the top couple of db's, and a add a little colour and cohesion to what are essentially ProTools mixes.

I think this is one of those situations where there's no right/wrong answer - really you want two pieces of gear, and choosing just one is basically impossible. They're very different flavours I realize, but I guess I was hoping for a lead on which would be the best to live with long term.

Anyway, today's decision time, I have three mixes to deliver next week which would be perfect testing grounds. May try and get hold of both on the basis I send one back end of the week (yeah right!!) ....... heh heh heh

Jules

Hey Jules ...for what you're doing, you should really give the Phoenix a go..It's a lovely compressor.
sounds very much up your musical alley..
but a demo is really the only way to know for sure my friend.make sure it truly will float your boat..4 G's ain't chicken feed.
Should be a way to get one somewere in the UK!
KMR maybe?
Hell ..try calling Thermionic directly..thats what I'd do.
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