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1073 transformer history? Plugin Bundles
Old 25th February 2010
  #1
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1073 transformer history?

I'm sure the subject's been beat to death but I couldn't find the info for some reason so I'm posting this hoping for a simple answer.

During the many years that 1073's were built, did the transformers change? I don't have much knowledge of this stuff but a friend of mine called me today because he found Carnhill transformers inside his own modules when he was expecting them to be Marinair 's.
Is this to do with the time frame that these were built or did all of the 1073's use Carnhills?

I'm talking about pre-AMS Neves.
Old 25th February 2010
  #2
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No not all neves used carnhills. I believe it is the time frame they were manufactured. From what I know and could be wrong here and there, so hopefully Geoff will confirm. The marinairs were before the carnhill st. ive input trannies. St ive came into the picture because the marinairs ceased.

But what I find strange is the Marinair LO1166 continued to be used as the output even with the carnhill came into the picture. Perhaps they had plenty in stock or Marinair agreed to continue production of this item? Lot of the neve tone comes from that marinair output trannie.

I am not 100% if the "beer can shaped" input trannies were first or the "Black" H.O. T1444s. But they were the early ones. I find it cool that Geoff had used the black can look on his Phoenix Audio Pre. Love that look. Then the dark olive green marinair cans (T1452 T1454), Then the Olive drab green marinair cans with the Yellow labels, then the lime metallic green painted, white puddy filled carnhill st. ive came into the scene.

In the last decade. You had the green painted carnhill cans used by early Vintech preamps. Then the blue and green painted Carnhills being used by AMS, Avedis Ma5, Chandler LTD-1, and BAE. And Carnhill does the current LO1166 clone.


Here is a photo of a very early neve 1066 with the "beer can" input trannie.
Attached Thumbnails
1073 transformer history?-1066neve5fbc_3.jpg  
Old 25th February 2010
  #3
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The designs didn't change... but some of the suppliers did.
Old 25th February 2010
  #4
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Beer-can=Gardners
Old 25th February 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
I don't have much knowledge of this stuff but a friend of mine called me today because he found Carnhill transformers inside his own modules when he was expecting them to be Marinair 's.
Very few vintage 1073's have Marinairs. I believe it's somewhere around 10%. Everyone thinks they have Marinair's until they open them up.
Old 25th February 2010
  #6
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Thank you very much guys, nice bit of education.
This is why I love this place.
Old 25th February 2010
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Very few vintage 1073's have Marinairs. I believe it's somewhere around 10%. Everyone thinks they have Marinair's until they open them up.
I'm pretty sure the one's we got from Norm have the Marinairs though eh?
Old 25th February 2010
  #8
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Hi

Your history is re 1073... I'm not sure that 1073's had Octals in the early days but 1066's certainly did.

The 10468 mic input transformer bought from Marinair Radar was a stock, off the shelf, product. Note that Gardners transformers used by previous modules were also stock, off the shelf, products. Tales of special Neve company designs should be taken with a pinch of salt.

There was a policy at Neve not to have one supplier of transformers so St Ive Windings produced a copy of the 10468. The output transformer LO1166 was designed by David Rees of Neve and the head of Marinair... St Ives (later Carnhill) never made this transformer until decades later... and then not particularly successfully, at first. There was another company made the LO1166... you will note it had no manufacturers name or part number, and that company still exists... but 40 years down the road nobody there remembers making the transformers so I spare them endless phone calls by not mentioning their name.

Generally, Marinair input tranformers are numbered with a T**** part number and have a folded/welded dark green case around the bobbin. St Ives transformers are numbered VT***** and are two "L" shaped light metallic green sections screwed to brass square rod.

Oddly enough, back in the old days, we really didn't consider there was much difference between the transformers. Who would guess that 40 years later we would be discussing this in audiophile terms and whether paint is green or blue.

Old 25th February 2010
  #9
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Thanks Geoff.

So just to be clear, 1073s of the past (so called 'vintage') only used output transformers made by Marinair and the mystery company and in fact did not use Carnhill/St Ives?
And input transformers were either Matinair or Carnhill and not the mystery company, correct?

Thanks.
Old 25th February 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
Thanks Geoff.

So just to be clear, 1073s of the past (so called 'vintage') only used output transformers made by Marinair and the mystery company and in fact did not use Carnhill/St Ives?
And input transformers were either Matinair or Carnhill and not the mystery company, correct?

Thanks.
Hi

Let's forget the word Carnhill that took over St Ives Windings for the moment.

10468 and 31267 and 10368 = Marinair Radar and St Ives Windings

LO1166, LO1366, LO2567 = Marinair Radar and Another (Never St Ives)

Old 25th February 2010
  #11
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Got it! Thanks!
Old 22nd March 2010
  #12
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Hey Geoff, What are these?

Hi Geoff, can't find any information on these old 70s Marinair socketed canned looking transformers.


Do you know what these are for? Mic input? Or strictly interstage? I am bit confused. Because it says T.1401, LI10468/8. Owner tells me these came from the first Neve console shipped to the USA back in the 70s. It was dissected and scavenged for the modules. He says they are interstage transformers. But I see the mic input designation of L.I. 10468/8. and I guess the I = interstage. But I want to double check with ya.

Because the 10468 makes me feel Mic input. If they are meant for interstage purposes, can they be used for line input or mic input anyway? Thanks for the help.
Attached Thumbnails
1073 transformer history?-neve-transformer.jpg   1073 transformer history?-neve-transformer-t.1.1401.jpg   1073 transformer history?-neve-transformer-t.1.1401-3.jpg  
Old 22nd March 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Hi Geoff, can't find any information on these old 70s Marinair socketed canned looking transformers.


Do you know what these are for? Mic input? Or strictly interstage? I am bit confused. Because it says T.1401, LI10468/8. Owner tells me these came from the first Neve console shipped to the USA back in the 70s. It was dissected and scavenged for the modules. He says they are interstage transformers. But I see the mic input designation of L.I. 10468/8. and I guess the I = interstage. But I want to double check with ya.

Because the 10468 makes me feel Mic input. If they are meant for interstage purposes, can they be used for line input or mic input anyway? Thanks for the help.
Hi

Original, black faced Neve modules used Gardner's octal based input transformers. The LO1166 output transformer was a colaboration between David Rees and the owner of Marinair Radar.

The T1401 was a stock mic input transformer by Marinair... rather like the stock Gardners on earlier modules.
It was adopted by Neve as the 10468 and early Neve 45 series modules, especially the 1066, had an octal transformer instead of the later rectangular type.

I have no idea what he means by "interstage" heh it's not like a piece of tube equipment that might use such a device.... or the buffer transformer in a Neve 2254 or later compressors.

All vintage class A Neve gear had input and output transformers (or inductors if they did not need balanced outputs) and the stages were capacitor coupled together.

Old 22nd March 2010
  #14
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Thanks Geoff. You always save the day. Well, I am going to get a some of these and give a shot on the mic input end. I wonder how much these T.1401s differ from the T.1444 or T.1445 in sound? One's square the other is a round can. Would they still have the same points for connection with their numerical system printed? I also notice alot of 11 pins are not there. I guess there was no need for #11 eh? hahahah


Sorry to trouble you again Geoff. BUT the... Marinair T.1461. Owner tells me they came from a rack of Neve line drive amplifiers and other bits and pieces. I have no clue what this was used for 100%. Line input? Mic input? I posted a picture. I want to put it to use if possible. Love that old iron

Thanks again Geoff.
Attached Thumbnails
1073 transformer history?-neve-transformer.jpg  
Old 22nd March 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DONNX View Post
Thanks Geoff. You always save the day. Well, I am going to get a some of these and give a shot on the mic input end. I wonder how much these T.1401s differ from the T.1444 or T.1445 in sound? One's square the other is a round can. Would they still have the same points for connection with their numerical system printed? I also notice alot of 11 pins are not there. I guess there was no need for #11 eh? hahahah


Sorry to trouble you again Geoff. BUT the... Marinair T.1461. Owner tells me they came from a rack of Neve line drive amplifiers and other bits and pieces. I have no clue what this was used for 100%. Line input? Mic input? I posted a picture. I want to put it to use if possible. Love that old iron

Thanks again Geoff.
Hi

The octal and rectangular transformers most likely used the same laminations and bobbin. The early rectangular transformers did not have the 11th anchor point pin. This was used as the output point of an attenuator created by two resistors strung across the output pins.

I don't have info for that T.1461 transformer. I don't think it was used on Neve gear... more likely Audix/Calrec.

Old 23rd March 2010
  #16
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thanks again Geoff. Glad to have you on this forum.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #17
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Old 10th April 2010
  #18
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Neve input transformer question.

Just took delivery today of a mid 70's 1073 and I'm trying to identify the input transformers. They don't look like any of the descriptions I've ever heard. They are small, rectangular, black in color, and the only markings are T1452 and T1454 as well as the terminal numbers all in white lettering. Thanks! Anyone have pictures they can post?
Old 10th April 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysummit View Post
Just took delivery today of a mid 70's 1073 and I'm trying to identify the input transformers. They don't look like any of the descriptions I've ever heard. They are small, rectangular, black in color, and the only markings are T1452 and T1454 as well as the terminal numbers all in white lettering. Thanks! Anyone have pictures they can post?
Hi

If they are numbered T.... they are genuine Marinairs.

I would not give them any further thought... more important, how does the module sound?

Old 10th April 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysummit View Post
Just took delivery today of a mid 70's 1073 and I'm trying to identify the input transformers. They don't look like any of the descriptions I've ever heard. They are small, rectangular, black in color, and the only markings are T1452 and T1454 as well as the terminal numbers all in white lettering. Thanks! Anyone have pictures they can post?


you got the good ones!!! black marinairs. They are my favoritethumbsup I would personally never let those go. Keep em and enjoy the music!
Old 10th April 2010
  #21
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Neve quest complete

Thanks to both Geoff and DonnX for setting me straight on the trannys. I paid the going price through Vintage King and with the info you provided, I will never let them go. Thanks Much!
Old 10th April 2010
  #22
API
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I have never seen an original vintage Neve module with original black Marinairs, only green ones.
Could you take a picture of the inside?
Old 10th April 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by API View Post
I have never seen an original vintage Neve module with original black Marinairs, only green ones.
Could you take a picture of the inside?

Black marinairs were before the green ones.

As for mairnair inputs.

The sequence I believe is ( could be wrong)

Cylinder green cans, black, green marinair, and then green (yellow label). Then came all the St. ives stuff.
Attached Thumbnails
1073 transformer history?-neve1073original3.jpg  
Old 10th April 2010
  #24
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Geoff,
Do you know why there was the switch from Garners?
Thx
Old 10th April 2010
  #25
API
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Thanks for the pic Don, have never seen that before.

I have a Cadac desk that is full of those black cans.

API
Old 11th April 2010
  #26
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Transformer fetishists unite.

I don't really care what the transformer is as long as the module has "the sound."
Old 12th April 2010
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarusan View Post
Geoff,
Do you know why there was the switch from Garners?
Thx
Hi

Because they, and the early Marinairs and St Ives, were Octal based and pretty darn huge. Fitting two in a 45mm module would be engineering nightmare!

Old 22nd April 2018
  #28
Gear Head
Lo 1166 /a

Hi team, just building a few 1073 1084 preamps and wondering if there is any particular difference between the LO 1166 and the LO 1166/A. In the 1276 modules I've got they're wired with primary and secondary coils in parallel, cheers
Old 23rd April 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moltenwok View Post
Hi team, just building a few 1073 1084 preamps and wondering if there is any particular difference between the LO 1166 and the LO 1166/A. In the 1276 modules I've got they're wired with primary and secondary coils in parallel, cheers
Hi

The 1276 was a unity gain line amp/distribution amplifier.
The 2N3055 was mounted on a separate heatsink because the unbalanced output could drive a bunch of LO2567's so it's very different from a 1073.

No idea about the /A

Old 1st May 2018
  #30
Gear Head
Thanks very much for your advice Geoff
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