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Total Recall (analogue) Consoles
Old 18th October 2005
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Total Recall (analogue)

Sorry in advance for what is probably a boring question to the pro's in this section, but I figured it would be the best place to ask.

First off, I have searched the archives and secondly, this is PURELY for interest sakes.

Besides the SSL's, which analogue consoles offered total recall ... in any price range??

There is a thread here concerning an Amek Rembrandt that has this feature, which led to my quest for a wee bit of knowledge in this dept.

Thanks
Old 18th October 2005
  #2
Gear Head
 
Twisted Tones's Avatar
 

Amek 9098
Old 18th October 2005
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Hello
One of the cheaper ones where is the Amek big.
This is some consoles that I think have total recall.

Amek Big
Amek Media 51
Amek Angela II
Amek Rembrandt
Amek Galileo
Amek 9098

SSL Many of them have the total recall or can have it counterfited.

Neve V-series

Otari Status

Euphonics Cs 2000 / 3000


And many more.
Old 18th October 2005
  #4
Gear Nut
 
ResonantFilter's Avatar
 

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but only SSL consoles have Totall Recall.

They Trademarked the phrase...
Old 18th October 2005
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.F.K


And many more.
Not really.

Tactile Technologies M4000, Harrison 10B and the new Neve.

That's about it.

Also Total Recall and instant reset are 2 different animals.

Instant reset is much more useful but its more of a digital control thing.
Old 18th October 2005
  #6
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T_R_S's Avatar
Trident Di-An
Old 19th October 2005
  #7
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S
Trident Di-An
Wow.

There's an oddball desk!

IMHO "total recall" in the analog domain is a concept that's better executed in theory then in practice. The mixes never come back at 100% regardless of who took the recall notes and how thorough they are. There are just too many varibles involved for it to come back 100%. I could believe 75 or 80%...maybe 90% or a little better if the assistent is slammin and tweaks once the mix is back...but 100%?

No funkin' way.
Old 19th October 2005
  #8
I think a lot depends on the complexity of the mix. I usually get 99% of the way back unless I've made a documentation error, which I'm embarrased to say is not a complete rarity. And one little pencil mark can make a huge difference. And I've also found it easy to make errorse resetting when the documentation is right. Like recalling a TG_1 in Comp instead of Limit as the recall sheet says, becuse I can't beleive that I would ahve used it in Limit on that source when I actually did.

I almost always am able to get it back by ear through A/Bing the mixes, but in the end, I'd preferr leaving everything up overnight and twekaing instead of recalling.
Old 19th October 2005
  #9
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di-an pic and story. i almost bought one once! http://chambinator.free.fr/english/dino2us.htm
Old 19th October 2005
  #10
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
Wow.

There's an oddball desk!

IMHO "total recall" in the analog domain is a concept that's better executed in theory then in practice. The mixes never come back at 100% regardless of who took the recall notes and how thorough they are. There are just too many varibles involved for it to come back 100%. I could believe 75 or 80%...maybe 90% or a little better if the assistent is slammin and tweaks once the mix is back...but 100%?

No funkin' way.

There was just a thread about this on another forum. When I was coming up I assisted two guys who had to have 100% recall - Bruce Swedien and Chris Lord Alge. Both were mainly SSL guys and both always used their own outboard equipment. I could get it there, sometimes there was a little tweaking but not always. Great recall notes and running through the Total recall setup a few times was the key. With Bruce we'd come back to a mix two months later just to tweak a vocal ride, it had to be right on or the clients (mostly MJ or Quincy) would have freaked. We'd print mixes back to two tracks of the 3348 and A/B the two. Most of the time we could switch back and forth and not hear a difference. There were lot's of variables - the alignments had to be dead on as well.


As always your mileage may vary. . . . . .
Old 19th October 2005
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Thanks guys.

I read a post on an archived thread where a Slut mentioned recording a spoken walkthrough of mix settings as opposed to writing notes.

Sounds like the way forward to me ... especially since your hands/eyes are freed up all the time. thumbsup

Ciao
Old 19th October 2005
  #12
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Rob,

I’m not going to doubt your or anyone else’s abilities…but in my experience recalls never come back at 100% in the analog domain. There are just way too many variables involved to have it come back at 100%. Maybe it'll come back to 90% and that's close enough that you won't pick up on much in an A/B but the differences are still there.

When I was coming up I was taking recall notes on a 56 input desk for guys all the time (including a Luther Vandross session that I remember being particularly hellish) and nobody ever complained too much about the notes or how the mix came back. I've also had assistants take notes for my mixes and yeah...some of 'em do a lot better then others but that's to be expected. If there was ever a doubt to someone's note taking ability they wouldn't be doing that part of the gig.

And really...I don't miss the days of having to recall a mix just to pull the shaker down 1dB and push the snare drum up 1.5dB in the bridge. How many times did you see 150 reels of 1/2" pile up with alternate after alternate after alternate, just to use mix #2? LOL Been there done that...hated it! If I'm recalling or remixing a song it's because I funked it up the first time around rather then to make some stupid little change that's just going to be an inaudible non-issue after mastering anyway. In that case, having the mix come back to 80% isn't so bad because I'm usually going to make some fairly radical changes.

Digital mixes can come back 100% and IMO that's really the only truly great thing about mixing ITB. The more analog the mix gets, the more that having a 100% becomes an improbability rather then a possibility. It's that whole 'variable' thing at play. On a typical 48 input desk there might be sayyyyy...70 inputs in use with each one having it's own EQ, outboard gear and aux send/bussing and blah & blee right? If each of those knobs is off by 1dB and lets face it…even +/-2dB per EQ or input trim is a pretty good margin of error and is a fairly realistic real world scenario. Well...1dB times a few hundred pots across the desk and a few dozen pieces of outboard can lead to a real difference in mixes. Plus the mixes were printed on different days and the tubes have worn a bit since then which is a different sound…but I’m one of those guys that can notice a difference in tube stuff from the start of the day to the end. Not that I care too much, but it’s noticed.

I'm not even touching the barrel of monkeys called alignment and biasing...

Old 19th October 2005
  #13
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
And really...I don't miss the days of having to recall a mix just to pull the shaker down 1dB and push the snare drum up 1.5dB in the bridge. How many times did you see 150 reels of 1/2" pile up with alternate after alternate after alternate, just to use mix #2? LOL Been there done that...hated it!

LOL, been there. With a certain big name engineer we would have over 300 saved SSL mixes per song. I had a notebook with detailed notes on what changes were made on each version so if the client wanted to go back to an old mix we could pick up where we left off.

Regarding alignments and gear you're so right. That's why Bruce and Chris carry all their own stuff and at the time ran everything off the 3348. Much less room for error. With Bruce there was no tube gear and very little outboard so it really came down to about 6 pieces of outboard and the SSL Total Recall. SSL has a published spec, I think it was + or - 3 % for the knob settings, but I honestly don't remember for sure. We had many late nights with the entire SSL tech staff and the CEO of SSL sitting in the studio with Bruce explaining to them what was wrong with their console. And having them do insane alignements of faders and VCA's so that things would come back closer than they thought possible. Honestly, Bruce can hear a fly fart, so if I couldn't get a mix back I would've been outta there.

Chris was the same deal, but with a lot more outboard. What made it easier with him was his template. A lot of the patching would stay the same, slight changes on the outboard and he moved so fast and knew what he was after that 90% was usually good enough for him. If he heard me running tape and A/B'ing mixes he'd come on in finish the rest himself.

Actually the hardest guy to please was Joe Chicarelli. Nicest guy in the world but he can hear things that would amaze most people. If outboard notes were off by a hair he could hear it. I learned a lot from him as well.
Old 19th October 2005
  #14
Gear Addict
 

Every recall I ever did as an assistant at Oceanway came back 100%.. and most of the recall notes were done by "Ticonderoga Recall" -- the notes would get you close.. and your ears would get the rest of the way. Most mix engineers don't charge for the first recall -- and when they walked in the control room the mix was identical... so they could make their minor tweak and leave while I printed the new mix versions. It's not a recall unless it's 100% the same... if you can't tweak the mix back by ear.. you're in the wrong biz.

Rail
Old 19th October 2005
  #15
Harmless Wacko
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail Jon Rogut
Every recall I ever did as an assistant at Oceanway came back 100%.. and most of the recall notes were done by "Ticonderoga Recall" -- the notes would get you close.. and your ears would get the rest of the way. Most mix engineers don't charge for the first recall -- and when they walked in the control room the mix was identical... so they could make their minor tweak and leave while I printed the new mix versions. It's not a recall unless it's 100% the same... if you can't tweak the mix back by ear.. you're in the wrong biz.

Rail
I couldn't state a %.... but I had an assistant for 5+ years whose recalls were TERRIFYINGLY accurate. He had a bag of tricks which included copious notes on HOW everything was reacting in the outboard as far as GR and meter swings...etc. He also had a system for tweaking the desk scan 2 or 3 times in rapid succession that brought the tolerances WAY down against the displayed iconography. And an old/new mix A/B system that was simply brilliant. He did it from the stems.

He also spent about 11-12000 hrs. mixing records with me, and eventually... basically 'heard' the way I did.

His departure late last year was a MAJOR practical and logistical hump for me to get over.

Somebody else is now paying him a lot more money than I could currently hope to match, to keep everything sorted. We're still great friends... he comes over to torture me for an hour or two monthly. HOHOHO.

Anyhoo.

My first coupla recalls without him were NIGHTMARES.

DISASTERS.

Rail Jon is dead on the money.

You get a great kid with big ears/brains.... Total Recalls are just that.

TOTAL recalls.

For all practical purposes, indistinguishable from the originals.

Best regards to all,

SM.
Old 19th October 2005
  #16
Registered User
 
Anderson's Avatar
 

I have no pb recalling "100%" on the Rembrandt.

Works well if the console has "warmed up" enough... Supertrue is great...

It takes about 20 minutes only for a full Console/outboard recall - rather fast for analog.

But I can't wait for that SSL X rack outboard recall stuff... mmhhhh.... donuuuts...
Old 19th October 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Never mind the recall on the desk being 100% (any desk) are you the same as when you 'stored' the desk? The world moves on.....
Matt S
Old 19th October 2005
  #18
Gear Head
 
dchapp's Avatar
 

There also were substantial differences between one SSL and another, due to differences with fader calibrations...not to mention differently configured desk layouts. When recalling the mix on the same exact SSL, you were fairly certain to bring back 99% of the mix with maybe a tweak or two, a fairly painless procedure. It's when I had to recall in a completely different studio/SSL...(many times I had to do this)....recalling was a bit more of a challenge, but still do'able..it just took longer to restore the mix to the point where it totally matched the original.
Old 19th October 2005
  #19
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studjo's Avatar
 

Boys let me know: where can I learn the art of recall an analog desk (non SSL/Amek) or analog outbaord?

thanks

Jo
Old 20th October 2005
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.F.K
SSL Many of them have the total recall or can have it counterfited.
not to pick on your English, but are you making illegal copies of SSLs? heh
Old 20th October 2005
  #21
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman
Rail Jon is dead on the money.

You get a great kid with big ears/brains.... Total Recalls are just that.

TOTAL recalls.

For all practical purposes, indistinguishable from the originals.
Yah.

And without the ears & gray matter "Total Recall" in the audio world is as bad as the Ahrnold movie.

Even with great notes it can be a nightmare. I gave up on taking detailed mix notes for total recall years ago. Most of the bands I work with have a budget of less the zero and they just simply can't afford to spend another 2-3 hours per song to document a mix in that kind of detail, all just for the sake of maybe making a change. Multiply those three hours by the 10-15 songs on a record it's almost a solid week spent just filling out paperwork! I'd rather spend a little more time getting the mix dialed in to start with or even better...see them spend the dough on promoting the record.

I've established a system that works for me...taking some general notes about patching and outboard so that I can back in the ballpark pretty quickly if we need to. It's never close but it doesn't need to be, if someone wants to get into recalling mixes to make 1 or 2dB changes then I simply tell 'em that I'm probably not the right guy for their record.
Old 20th October 2005
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

To dig a little deeper, whilst simultaneously revealing my complete ignorance and lack of experience actually using a high end board (please remember that this is all as a matter of interest), exactly HOW do you recall on an SSL for example?

I gather that some kind of board scan is done and pot/fader/switch values are given a virtual position via the Recall software or whatever.

But then, when recalling, is there some way (aside from using ones ears) of double checking a complex recall??
I mean, are the new values you are busy resetting displayed in some way via the same software scan ... or alternately, is there a *compare* scan that is done?

Or ... is it all simply case of manually recalling by sight alone (basically a digital camera screen shot equivalent).

Cheers guys.
Old 20th October 2005
  #23
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlienyc
not to pick on your English, but are you making illegal copies of SSLs? heh
ooups. Just realised what that word means.
Old 20th October 2005
  #24
Registered User
 
Anderson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson
Never mind the recall on the desk being 100% (any desk) are you the same as when you 'stored' the desk? The world moves on.....
Matt S
Not sure what you mean, but when I worked in a studio during a summer, I remember having to recall a mix on that same desk (Amek) and ending up not liking it anymore - and in fact kind of remixing it a bit anyway... Is that what you mean?
Old 20th October 2005
  #25
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
To dig a little deeper, whilst simultaneously revealing my complete ignorance and lack of experience actually using a high end board (please remember that this is all as a matter of interest), exactly HOW do you recall on an SSL for example?

I gather that some kind of board scan is done and pot/fader/switch values are given a virtual position via the Recall software or whatever.
Each version of the computer & software is a little different but that's pretty much the idea. The board does a scan of all the pots and when you recall the mix, you match each of 'em up to the stored settings.

Quote:
But then, when recalling, is there some way (aside from using ones ears) of double checking a complex recall??
I mean, are the new values you are busy resetting displayed in some way via the same software scan ... or alternately, is there a *compare* scan that is done?
Kinda but not really. For the most part YOU are the *compare* scan. The computer shows you where the knobs were set but depending on how well the desk has been calibrated the can be off by a certain percentage, and that's where the ears come into play.

Quote:
Or ... is it all simply case of manually recalling by sight alone (basically a digital camera screen shot equivalent).
I know people who do use a digital camera to snap pictures of the desk & outboard gear but I don't think it's anywhere near as accurate as using recall sheets or dictating to a recorder.
Old 20th October 2005
  #26
Lives for gear
 

I have to say the greatest help, back when i was an assistant, was people printing into protools....no longer did i have have my trigger finger ready on the dat trying to get the mix within a 1/4 second or so. having a button on the board to switch from protools to console made it a breeze to really tweak the mixes and get them back.
Old 20th October 2005
  #27
Harmless Wacko
 

In this year I have had to do more than a little recalling on 5 different types of desks.

Neve VR
9000XL
9000J
4000G+
9098i

I'll say this.

All recall systems are not created equally.

SM.
Old 18th November 2005
  #28
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poncival's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.F.K
Hello
SSL Many of them have the total recall or can have it counterfited.
The counterfeited ones don't have that authentic SSL sound though fuuck
Old 18th November 2005
  #29
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Mainly replying to Anderson.
I was meaning that after a break of a day or two you have changed, listened to different things and probably feel differently about the particular job you were working on. This is possibly more influential than a couple of pots being set 1dB or possibly less differently to a session recorded previously.
The AMEK recalling software would easily detect the difference in pan pot position from being centred in the 'detent' position and the few degrees miss positioned at the 'edge' of the detent., corresponding to less than about 0.5dB. Granted some pots could be worse especially around the areas where the log law gets more extreme.
Music is about emotions and you will have changed. If you have spent the last 20 hours with grumpy musicians you will feel different compared to going into the studio to remix on a nice sunny morning.
Oh shut up matt!
Matt S
Old 19th November 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson
Mainly replying to Anderson.
I was meaning that after a break of a day or two you have changed, listened to different things and probably feel differently about the particular job you were working on. <snip>
have to admit i've come in the following day on 100% ITB mixes and thought: 'something's wrong... no way it sounded like this last night', so i know exactly what you mean. of course by the time i'd left ' last night' it was 9 or 10AM, and my ears had been fried hours earlier. i try to keep my limit while mixing to from 6 or 8 hours. i know, i'm a woosie, but every now and then i just stay there and torture myself... when will i learn?

as far as the expert mixers on this forum are concerned though, i'm sure they hear the same from beginning to end, so that's probably not a problem for them at all.

but my fantasy is an analog total reset console/controller a la AWS (with dynamics).
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