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Michael Wagener SM****????
Old 30th September 2005
  #1
Michael Wagener SM****????

Hi Michael (and everyone else).

So I got a great deal on an SM**** (basically I got it for $25 or so in almost new shape). I have a SubKick and last night I gave the two a try together. As with all new things... well... it is new.

heh

I know you probably don't do the same thing every time but any tips? The best I could get (and it came out pretty good but I think it can get better) was to hi-pass the SM91 around 80 or so and low-pass the SubKick. I tried a 3 or 4 db shelf on both and that was cool as well....

Anyway I know "just use my ears" and "use what sounds good" but I wanted to see if there were any tricks or different ways to look at this. Maybe I am just too set in my ways and there is a better solution than the low pass high pass?

Thanks!!!
Old 30th September 2005
  #2
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
$25 is an amzing deal for one of those, especially if it's an old one (not a Beta).

You are doing the right thing with the hi and low pass, I do the same or similar, but I wait until mix time. I think the most important thing is the phase alignment between the two mics. Do you have a LittleLabs IBP? If so, put it on the 91 and turn the knob until the bottom end (with both mics on) is to your liking. You can hear the bottom lock into place when the knob is in the right position. If you don't have an IBP - get one heh No seriously, move the tracks in time relation to each other until it sounds right to you. You might want to zoom into the sample level and align the two tracks in time. The sub kick is probably a bit later than the 91. This method won't let you hear the final sound while it's being recorded, though. How far away from the head and where is the subkick placed?
Old 30th September 2005
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

I too have been using this combo for a while...I'm hooked on the speaker mic!

I've had the SM**** for quite a while, does any of yours have the PAD/HP/LP at the female XLR end? This helps get a lot of different flavours out of that mic as well.

I too use the time align tricks to get the 2 mics to slam together...great combo!
Old 30th September 2005
  #4
C/G
Lives for gear
 
C/G's Avatar
 

I have and use the Beta 91 all the time in kick. Not sure how it differs from the SM****, but I think it sounds great. I first learned about the mic from a guy that works for Mutt Lang, so I tried it and like it. It never really sounds wrong to me in a kick. Last weekend tried a D12, didn't work in that situation, threw in the 91 and bingo! Combined with a BLUE Mouse out in front of the kick about a foot and it was great. I use the 91 when I play live too, Very unobtrusive and no mic stand for my singer to trip over. The only thing I found somewhat troublesome is that the cable and connectors seem a bit fragile. Nothing has happenned yet but I bet 10 years from now I will desperately need one because I stepped on the mini xlr connector and broke it.
Old 30th September 2005
  #5
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
The cool part about that mini cable is, you can feed it through the little airhole in the kick when using a full head with no hole in the front.
Old 30th September 2005
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

You guys ever use the SM91 on a bass cab? I have had some great results there too...give it a shot!
Old 30th September 2005
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener
$25 is an amzing deal for one of those, especially if it's an old one (not a Beta).

You are doing the right thing with the hi and low pass, I do the same or similar, but I wait until mix time. I think the most important thing is the phase alignment between the two mics. Do you have a LittleLabs IBP? If so, put it on the 91 and turn the knob until the bottom end (with both mics on) is to your liking. You can hear the bottom lock into place when the knob is in the right position. If you don't have an IBP - get one heh No seriously, move the tracks in time relation to each other until it sounds right to you. You might want to zoom into the sample level and align the two tracks in time. The sub kick is probably a bit later than the 91. This method won't let you hear the final sound while it's being recorded, though. How far away from the head and where is the subkick placed?
Hi Michael.

Yes it was a smoking good deal (and I got it with another mic for $50 that I sold for $500 so actually I got the SM**** and $430 in the deal.... heh I don't get deals like that all the time so I am pretty happy).

Yes I have an IBP that I used with the test the other night..... I was a big help.

I tried messing with some different cutoff points for the high and low pass filters. 80 was pretty good. I know it depends on the drum but where do you tend to find your cross over point ends up most times? Below 100 ish or do you let the speaker go up higher, say into the 110 area?

Also are you high / low passing or just using a 3 - 4 db shelf as the cross over?

Also as Randall does I put the SubKick as close to the resonate head as I can get away with and with me the SM91 ended up back as close to the resonate head as it could get. That seemed to help the phase even with the IBP because the mics were close together. Do you make each mic sound as good as you can then let the IBP take care of the phase issues or do you tend to get the both sounding good together and just touch it up a bit with the IBP?

Thanks.
Old 30th September 2005
  #8
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
The 91 mostly ends up in the middle of the kick, somehow secured so it won't wander around (I have it taped to a piece of hard foam). The subkick or speaker end up in the upper left corner as close to the front kick head as possible, which will require an inline pad.

I don't EQ to "tape", I record both mics to separate tracks and rather wait until mix time to make the kick sit right in the mix. Sometimes I bring up the upper midrange (around 4K) on the 91 to make it cut some more, and most of the time I lowpass the speaker/subkick below 300Hz. Other times I leave both full range. With the IBP I dial in the "low end punch" so the "woof" is pretty much gone and everything sounds tight (a sub woofer in your monitor system comes in handy here)
Old 30th September 2005
  #9
Thanks Michael.

So when you do EQ you don't do much to the SM91 low end then? Basically you are running the 91 full range as low as it can go and doubling up everything from 300 down to some degree with the SubKick and the 91.

Also anyone who uses the SubKick what happens if you use it over the port on the resonate head? Most people use the speaker trick away from the hole in the front head but it seems like you could get some more low end stuff from the port, maybe too much. I have not tried placing it there but I think I will check it out for grins.
Old 30th September 2005
  #10
Lives for gear
 
bjornson's Avatar
 

One trick I use with the 91 all the time is rotating it slightly in the horizontal plane.
Kinda like a built in EQ. I also set it on varying heights of soft foam blocks with velcro.
Helps keep it stationary.
Old 30th September 2005
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjornson
One trick I use with the 91 all the time is rotating it slightly in the horizontal plane.
Kinda like a built in EQ. I also set it on varying heights of soft foam blocks with velcro.
Helps keep it stationary.
Hey Dave still need to shoot you my new numbers... sorry about the late PM.

Yeah I actually was messing with just this myself. I tried some different heights of foam and it did change things up. The problem is the kit I was testing this out on (my GMS) has a 20 inch kick. Very cool sounding but a little less total volume (not SPL's interior size) than a 22 inch so the foam blocks were actually changing the sound of the drum in the room. *shrug*

Could just be the combo of the 91, sub and that kick are not made for each other. It sounds really good but not GREAT if you know what I mean. I do need a new batter head so that might do the trick.
Old 1st October 2005
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

I've always found that the closer I can get the SM91 to the resonate head the better it sounds (as long as it is tuned properly!), I also find this helps a bit with bleed from other drums...has anyone tried the "cannon" style kick trick (2 drums in series) with the 91/subkick combination? I would like to try that...


I too have tried rotating it as described above, cool trick too!

CHEERZ
Old 1st October 2005
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

INLINE PAD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener
The subkick or speaker end up in the upper left corner as close to the front kick head as possible, which will require an inline pad.
Inline pad? Does Earthworks sell their inline kickdrum pad outside of their 3 piece drum package?

Any other suggestions for a quality inline pad?

Best, trans
Old 1st October 2005
  #14
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Trans, the Kickpad is available separately.

War
Old 1st October 2005
  #15
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Shure makes one with 3 different pads, about $45.
Old 1st October 2005
  #16
Old 2nd October 2005
  #17
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano
yep
Old 2nd October 2005
  #18
Here for the gear
 

Shure A15AS vs. AKG pads for 451

Does the Shure pad function the same way that the pads that are intended for use with the old 451s? Would the Shure model prevent overload on guitar cabs, etc?
Thanks,
Jon
Old 2nd October 2005
  #19
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Yes, similar to the AKG pads, except those are optimized (impedance) for the 451 capsule. The Shure pad will work fine on the microphone side, as long as your mic is somewhat within the impedance range. The speaker setup (for the kickdrum) is probably an 8ohm or 4 ohm speaker so it works fine.
Old 2nd October 2005
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Thanks Michael,
Sorry to belabor the question, but do you feel the Shure model would be an adequated substitute for the AKG pads, which I have had a hard time finding?
Old 2nd October 2005
  #21
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
The AKG pads are, as far as I know, right after the capsule but before the mic amp inside the microphone, so it actually works slightly different than the Shure, which is after the mic output. But because there is no built-in mic amp on a dynamic mic, the pad still sits at the same point in the chain. Since we are talking condensor mic (in case of the 451), there actually might be a difference, depending on how hot the source is.

The AKG pads are going for as much as $140, if you can find them on ebay.
Old 2nd October 2005
  #22
Here for the gear
 

thanks. the $$$ is the difference, but I do need them, so I'll have to dig some up.
Old 2nd October 2005
  #23
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
$45 is still in the range of a small Sushi dinner heh , so you might just want to check out the Shure pads. In any case it's a good tool to have around in many recording situations, so your $$s are not waisted
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