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Old 14th November 2009
  #61
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
Is this thread about art and talent or about making money for a living?
Art and talent has starved religiously throughout history.
Making a living follows the trends.
Neither is a guaranteed roadmap to success but following the trends more than likely has a better chance of paying the rent than following an artistic muse.
Seldom does it seem both worlds collide and leave a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.....and if they do what is your percentage?
Following a trend is a sure bet that you'll be surfing the back side of the wave and be making less than the leader on the front side. It's also like playing a weaker hand when you had a strong hand.
Old 14th November 2009
  #62
Gear Maniac
 

Disagree.
Wish to make a living.
Follow what the client at hand needs or wants and is willing to pay for.
Trend does not mean in my mind artistic self sacrifice.
Riding the back of the wave?
Wave of what?
Studios going out of business?
Lack of booked hours in a high over head environment?
Engineers ending up either working out of their basements or managing Buffalo Wild Wings to support their family?
Isn't this the whole crux of this thread?
So to survive you have to push the envelope and be a creator?
That would be a good scenario if there were a line of customers standing at the door waving signed,depositable checks and waiting their turn.

I mean no disrespect and I AM NOT EVEN IN THIS BUSINESS.....but it really isn't any different than a whole lot of other businesses suffering the same effects all over the USA and every other corner of the world.
To make a living one must meet what the consumer demands.
Art is a whole different lifestyle.
Few wish to pay for art anymore....therefore the artists go broke and those who make a living from the artist scream about the lack of intellect of the consumer.

To whom are you screaming?
Seems to me they have spoken loud and clear in a mumbling voice...barely discernable but evident in the book keeping.

Being irritated with lack of interest in your art by the consumer doesn't pay the bills nor give a paycheck.
Old 14th November 2009
  #63
Lives for gear
It's a tough biz all around. Rates are the same as 20 years ago or lower in some cases. Gigs? I played a club the last week. After the show the drummer handed me $75. I'm like where's the rest? he's like, that's it. We made $350 I had to give $50 to the sound guy. I laughed and said remember we played Northeast Tech High school in 1983 and we made $700? w/ same guys as the other night ironically.

Studio biz has always been tough you have do stuff other than bands to stay competitive and make good money. Easier said than done but 17 year old's don't have much money and the the 23+ age group of musicians that do have money, buy
protools LE a couple of shures and do it themselves.

Look at the number of people that frequent this site alone? I have no idea what the number is but it's 1000x how many engineers there were 20 years ago. Adats and now DAWs just flooded the industry. Everybody is a producer............ Not saying that is good or bad. When I bought my first 24 track in the mid 80's there were maybe 30 24tracks in the greater Boston/RI area? Now there are 20 protools rigs in every neighborhood never mind city or area. I think it will get worse. Some of the chinese stuff coming out is not that bad. Homes studio will only sound better at a lower cost. Now only converters are what still separates the boys from the men but that gap could start closing in too, and when that does..........?
Old 14th November 2009
  #64
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
Rates are the same as 20 years ago or lower in some cases.
LOL For the big studios, I'd say that would be a dream come true these days. It's worse than 1989. Of course the cost of running the studio is exponential unless you;re operating out of your parents garage.
Old 14th November 2009
  #65
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
Disagree.
Wish to make a living.
Follow what the client at hand needs or wants and is willing to pay for.
Trend does not mean in my mind artistic self sacrifice.
Riding the back of the wave?
Wave of what?
Studios going out of business?
Lack of booked hours in a high over head environment?
Engineers ending up either working out of their basements or managing Buffalo Wild Wings to support their family?
Isn't this the whole crux of this thread?
So to survive you have to push the envelope and be a creator?
That would be a good scenario if there were a line of customers standing at the door waving signed,depositable checks and waiting their turn.

I mean no disrespect and I AM NOT EVEN IN THIS BUSINESS.....but it really isn't any different than a whole lot of other businesses suffering the same effects all over the USA and every other corner of the world.
To make a living one must meet what the consumer demands.
Art is a whole different lifestyle.
Few wish to pay for art anymore....therefore the artists go broke and those who make a living from the artist scream about the lack of intellect of the consumer.

To whom are you screaming?
Seems to me they have spoken loud and clear in a mumbling voice...barely discernable but evident in the book keeping.
Being irritated with lack of interest in your art by the consumer doesn't pay the bills nor give a paycheck.
When the TV people came into this biz with their TV ethics (lack of) and their MTV snappiness, it swelled for a fast minute and then collapsed, we recognized what happened and MTV doesn't play video music anymore. Things normalized, then the TV people who entrenched themselves in the R&B area started using "cheats" to prop up phony popstars, the makers of this gear started selling it to other producers of music in other genre's, music swelled for a minute, then here we are, one leg of the three leg collapse. For a guy "not in this business" (hmmm, why are you on this site commenting?) you have a lot of opinions on why it's broke, and as to your question "push the envelope to survive?"
If survival is your aim, you probably won't or will "just survive" by playing it safe. This business is like no ther. treating it like it is will not spell a nice safe success for anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
Studio biz has always been tough you have do stuff other than bands to stay competitive and make good money. Easier said than done but 17 year old's don't have much money and the the 23+ age group of musicians that do have money, buy
protools LE a couple of shures and do it themselves.
Yeah, but why?
Quote:
Look at the number of people that frequent this site alone? I have no idea what the number is but it's 1000x how many engineers there were 20 years ago.
Homes studio will only sound better at a lower cost. Now only converters are what still separates the boys from the men but that gap could start closing in too, and when that does..........?
That gap has close and so what? That doesn't make talent or good music, production value doesn't actually trump talent + material in the long run. You can fool people for a minute but they will at some point vote with their wallet and stop buying when it does nothing for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
LOL For the big studios, I'd say that would be a dream come true these days. It's worse than 1989. Of course the cost of running the studio is exponential unless you;re operating out of your parents garage.
Meeeeemoreeeeeeeeeez.
Old 14th November 2009
  #66
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bdmctear's Avatar
 

Bob Dylan = James Joyce

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Hackney View Post
Hey fellow GearSlutz,

Do recording studios need to be re-glamorized? Feature in more music videos? Run webcams so that people can experience studio life. With a rising number of musicians claiming to be 'audio engineers' wouldn't it make sense to make more out of the existence of recording studios and promote their importance, creativity and (dare i say it again) 'glamor'.


(The Way Studio)
What you lament is the wide spread diminishing understanding and appreciation for the art of recording. In the age of MP3s, Logic and Pro Tools LE in every home, the attitude among musicians has shifted from "I want the best recording I can get" to "I want the best recording I can GET AWAY with." You are also seeing the demise of the album as a work of art that the next generation understands and places any value on.

Fixing the problem by "re-glamorizing" it, is perhaps a bit too superficial. Musicians and music fans need to be educated by people like us. We need to share the quest for quality. We need to help them develop their ear for it. THey may suspect we're wearing the emporer's new clothes for all we know.

I also think a broader understanding of the vision that went into great works in the past is absolutely necessary. They made me read and understand James Joyce when I was a kid. They helped me develop an understanding for the artform he created, what and whom he was talking about. They made me recreate the setting in which he lived and the people to whom he was writing. I think the same exercise needs to be instituted in schools around the record album. Kids need to learn appreciation of the great works of popular music in the 20th and 21st centuries. It's beyond them right now. If we cling to superficial glamor, Bob Dylan loses to Cold Play or worse. If we wait to long to do this, the people who actually grew up on records, the people for whom the recordings were made....the people that would understand the artform the best, who could best teach it to a younger generation, will be retired and no longer teaching. The album will certainly die a superficial death.

I know this is a recording forum, but the problem with your studio business (and MINE, for that matter) is a series of much larger systemic problems that needs to be addressed in society.
Old 14th November 2009
  #67
"Click to make a donation"?

Is that... supposed to be funny?
Old 14th November 2009
  #68
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bdmctear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
"Click to make a donation"?

Is that... supposed to be funny?
I don't think so? Weathervane Music is a non-profit organization. That's how non-profits raise money to achieve their goals.
Old 14th November 2009
  #69
Okay, more power to you. I round up customers to achieve my goals. Different strokes...
Old 14th November 2009
  #70
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bdmctear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Okay, more power to you. I round up customers to achieve my goals. Different strokes...
Actually, I run a separate for profit business. That's what Miner Street is (the link above it). It's been successfully running for about 15 years, actually, most of that time I'd say we were booked "mercilessly". It continues to run as it always has to this day.

Weathervane is a new initiative that is trying to address the problems I've discussed above, though. If this isn't noble or is in some way distasteful to you, I apologize.
Old 14th November 2009
  #71
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdmctear View Post

I know this is a recording forum, but the problem with your studio business (and MINE, for that matter) is a series of much larger systemic problems that needs to be addressed in society.
No it's not, it's the attitude that pandering is OK by the production side.
Old 14th November 2009
  #72
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

The culture of the recording business has not yet changed enough to re-stabilize. You don't have to look far in US industry to see the automotive business, steel, healthcare, video, etc. are in trouble. We seem to be very slow to react in business to change and hold on the past way too long. Get over it, the gear manufactures have continued to open their market to cheaper and cheaper equipment allowing anyone to be in the studio business. (I crack up what people on Craig's list call a studio!) This has happened in the video business too. I've watch $3000 projects going at the hand of video editors becoming audio engineers and the results can be pretty atrocious! I'm not going to change that, nor will I suddenly get all of the lower end home studio's to give up their equipment. The key has got to be business creativity and education to show value of my services. I have mixed home studio tracks for bands and made a significant difference in their product and now I will have more mix business because of that. I've started a media development business to create projects that feed my studio. I'm still searching for the right answers for me but my advice is to get creative and make a new niche' for your business. I would also watch expenses and limit the overwhelming need to buy equipment that at best will not significantly improve your product.
Old 14th November 2009
  #73
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

I do not believe for one second that the clients that would go to all the low end studios, clients I would not normally have anything to do with because their budgets are far to low, are eating into any business I would ever have. I own a low end studio, a good one, but, I wouldn't use it unless it was an emergency. I'd rather go to someone else's commercial facility and get the full benefit for the recording. I don't think slavery should come back so I don't work for free unless it's for charity. I'm not bringing editing carp home to work on.
IN FACT AS OF THIS MORNING, I HAVE RETIRED THE PROTOOLS RIG PERMENANTLY.
Old 14th November 2009
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
For a guy "not in this business" (hmmm, why are you on this site commenting?) you have a lot of opinions on why it's broke,
Just because I am not in the business does not mean I don't know anything about the business.30+ year musician here.I've been in the periphery of the music business since I was 18.I also have opinions based on the reality of the world and the economy.I have as much right to comment on this forum as the next person.I meant no disrespect but I will comment when I wish.I've done alot more in my musical/studio life than my current business/day job and have been in and out of studios and the business end of music for years.
I also own a business and the effects I read in this forum are felt by many in other fields even though they are not directly related to recording studios.The sentiment is the same.

I read this and many other forums because I am one the guys with a home studio making my own music for my own pleasure.
I have done quite a bit with other bands in real studios but for myself I prefer doing it at home.
I don't pose a threat since I am not a studio for hire nor do I have the arrogance to think I can produce professional results but I can get pretty damn close.

The OP could have been made standing in my business making the same statements and the relevance is the same.That is why I chose to comment.
Old 14th November 2009
  #75
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player1 View Post
Get over it, the gear manufactures have continued to open their market to cheaper and cheaper equipment allowing anyone to be in the studio business. (I crack up what people on Craig's list call a studio!) This has happened in the video business too. I've watch $3000 projects going at the hand of video editors becoming audio engineers and the results can be pretty atrocious!
The key has got to be business creativity and education to show value of my services. I've started a media development business to create projects that feed my studio.
My advice is to get creative and make a new niche' for your business. I would also watch expenses and limit the overwhelming need to buy equipment that at best will not significantly improve your product.
Brilliant advice.
I could tell you a story of a feature I worked on where the sound guy was obviously a video guy and the audio mixer editor too, I had to piece together over 100,000 butchered files scattered over 32 tracks randomly just to begin to redo everything.
Everything in everything else's tracks, crap cut off moved and mis-labelled, oh it took two months just to put the tracks back together so that they could be placed in their proper track and edited. At the end, it was edited for video and not re-conformed so all for naught.
Old 14th November 2009
  #76
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
Just because I am not in the business does not mean I don't know anything about the business.30+ year musician here.I've been in the periphery of the music business since I was 18.I also have opinions based on the reality of the world and the economy.I have as much right to comment on this forum as the next person.I meant no disrespect but I will comment when I wish.I've done alot more in my musical/studio life than my current business/day job and have been in and out of studios and the business end of music for years.
I also own a business and the effects I read in this forum are felt by many in other fields even though they are not directly related to recording studios.The sentiment is the same.
I wasn't alluding that you don't have a right to, just wondering what prompted you to speak on a subject in a business you are not in on a site dedicated to that business. I appreciate your reply. You're "kinda" in this business. You may not be all the way in, but, you're in too deep not to be in at all.
Quote:
I read this and many other forums because I am one the guys with a home studio making my own music for my own pleasure.
I have done quite a bit with other bands in real studios but for myself I prefer doing it at home.
I don't pose a threat since I am not a studio for hire nor do I have the arrogance to think I can produce professional results but I can get pretty damn close.

The OP could have been made standing in my business making the same statements and the relevance is the same.That is why I chose to comment.
I don't posit that home studios are any threat, If they are, then the threatened are doing something very wrong. Home studios are an impetus to raise the bar of professionality and integrity, not by crating frauds. I don't discount your right to post, it's valid either way.
Old 14th November 2009
  #77
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bdmctear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
No it's not, it's the attitude that pandering is OK by the production side.
I am afraid i disagree. It's short-sighted to think what you do is so important that the demand will be there forever just as long as you don't "pander" to lesser production standards. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
Old 14th November 2009
  #78
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdmctear View Post
I am afraid i disagree. It's short-sighted to think what you do is so important that the demand will be there forever just as long as you don't "pander" to lesser production standards. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
Uh, last I checked, making an inferior product did preclude following business activities.

And yes, you did misunderstand, I'm not saying we should aim towards "not pandering", pandering shouldn't even be in the conversation, we should be aiming at making a superior product, not by creating frauds.
Old 14th November 2009
  #79
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bdmctear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Uh, last I checked, making an inferior product did preclude following business activities.

And yes, you did misunderstand, I'm not saying we should aim towards "not pandering", pandering shouldn't even be in the conversation, we should be aiming at making a superior product, not by creating frauds.
I think you brought pandering into the conversation.

Haven't you detected that people's ability to appreciate that product is changing? The very fact that people don't care whether they listen on an MP3 versus superior formats is just an entry level part of that conversation. It's like the comment about payphones making a comeback. Standards are only standards if there is a substantial consensus among music listeners, and especially among the client base. The reality of the financial returns on recordings makes these very difficult standards to promote when the audience isn't concerned about it whatsoever.

I suppose that since the original point of this conversation was to talk about the need to bring value back to recording studios somehow, what are you then proposing? It seems that you are saying we should make better recordings? Again, i don't think very many people (dare I say "far far too few") give a rat's ass.
Old 14th November 2009
  #80
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdmctear View Post
I think you brought pandering into the conversation.
Yes, I did.
Quote:
Haven't you detected that people's ability to appreciate that product is changing?
I don't think that's happening. Sales aren't going up, they are disappearing.
Quote:
The very fact that people don't care whether they listen on an MP3 versus superior formats is just an entry level part of that conversation. It's like the comment about payphones making a comeback. Standards are only standards if there is a substantial consensus among music listeners, and especially among the client base. The reality of the financial returns on recordings makes these very difficult standards to promote when the audience isn't concerned about it whatsoever.
You think it's new that people will listen to inferior audio quality for portability, it's not, we used to have cassettes and players you could carry, CD players, etc, still have em, not making a comeback.
Quote:
I suppose that since the original point of this conversation was to talk about the need to bring value back to recording studios somehow, what are you then proposing? It seems that you are saying we should make better recordings? Again, i don't think very many people (dare I say "far far too few") give a rat's ass.
So true, and too true.
We need to close up shop for many services that serve to create short term profits and long term destruction of market. There is a balance to every system, we have gone out of balance due to market glut of product, global lack of billing for product, creating fraudulent products, nd you can have any opinion of that you may want, but, protracted periods of market glut coupled with a lack of ability to collect money for product is called market death.
You do work, there is no money coming in, slavery, no money = death.
Old 14th November 2009
  #81
Deleted 86c3d96
Guest
Anyone ever thought of building a recording studio co-op?
Old 15th November 2009
  #82
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Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie View Post
Brilliant advice.
I could tell you a story of a feature I worked on where the sound guy was obviously a video guy and the audio mixer editor too, I had to piece together over 100,000 butchered files scattered over 32 tracks randomly just to begin to redo everything.
Everything in everything else's tracks, crap cut off moved and mis-labelled, oh it took two months just to put the tracks back together so that they could be placed in their proper track and edited. At the end, it was edited for video and not re-conformed so all for naught.
Ya, I've had a few of those myself. Not to knock any video editors, but I was in a post house for over 10 years and my experience is that most video people listen with their eyes. There are a few guys that really get it but not many.
Old 15th November 2009
  #83
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

I was thanking God for time code that month, when I got done, everyone on the project couldn't believe it "it sounds like a movie" fixed EVERYTHING, recorded the adr, the foley, the efx, music, mixed it all, sounded fantastic! Then the director edited out a 15 minute section, knocked the whole thing out of sync, and didn't re-conform, took it to a festival, with my name plastered all over it in big bold letters, and I never got another drop of work for post again. Was I 'sposed to hold a gun to his head? RECONFORM YOU BASTARD!!
I did tell him to bring it in about ten times before he went to do just that but, got ignored.
Some peoples kids.
Old 15th November 2009
  #84
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Player1

I've had stuff knocked out of sync on the network level and it really pissed me off! Again, my names on it and it's out of my control. It's amazing how incompetent some people can be. Fortunately 99% of what I've done was aired seamlessly!
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