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KM 84 on snare (I'm afraid)
Old 26th November 2009
  #61
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paul999's Avatar
 

Illacov- That is a fabulas idea.
Old 26th November 2009
  #62
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illacov's Avatar
 

Paul,

If you really want to be a sicko about it, since the part of the pencil holder that faces the snare drum/tom etc is mesh, you can put a windscreen over it! There may even be some that have elastic in them so that you can stretch it right over the pencil cup holder. I'm thinking maybe one of those furry ones would do the trick.

Or one of the think foam ones would fit right into the base of the pencil cup holder, you'd probably have to cut it to size but it would definitely work.

You could also do the same thing with the drawer that goes over the LDC.

Seriously, it took me a bit of searching around on google shopping to find this stuff and then just a bit of some imagination and this idea came to fruition. I find it really strange that there isn't a manufacturer out there who has made this into a product. If I see somebody next week selling these things, well remember who made it public first!


If I have some free time, I'll see if theres a way it could clip directly to a SDC or it could fit around an SDC like a shockmount. That would require a little bit more mechanical alteration though and wouldn't be as simple as this design though. However it would serve several purposes at once.

I would love to offer this as a product with our tube SDC line!

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th November 2009
  #63
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
meaning, from before there were condenser mics??


meaning one ribbon mic overhead for the whole drum sound?


Emerick was using a KM54 or 56 as far back as 1966


Yes there are a lot of different approaches to mic'ing up drums, of course.

How about a 441? Not a condenser, but I think has much of what you are talking about for snare.
Old 26th November 2009
  #64
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DeadPoet's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
I think the 184 is a perfect mic for snare top, especially when paired with a dynamic on top as well.

The 184 off axis stuff is actually very natural for an SDC (less strident/awful hi-hat bleed).
I've tried a 184 on snare and toms only once but since they have no pad they crapped out real fast...



Herwig
Old 26th November 2009
  #65
Deleted User
Guest
Related (perhaps dumb) question...

If you use an SDC on top of snare, do you pretty much have to use an SDC on the bottom (should you want a bottom mic)? Or can you 'mix n' match' top and bottom?
Old 26th November 2009
  #66
Gear Nut
 
Jarp2600's Avatar
 

I built myself a chickenwire capsule that goes around the mic and can be attached to a mic clamb for these kind of problems. Works fine, although it takes some time to convince the drummer that "it isn't about that you don't trust him, but that you are just very careful on your mic's".
:')
Old 26th November 2009
  #67
Gear Addict
The only time I put an 84 on the snare is when I AM playing. That way I have no one to blame but me if it gets F'ed up (which hopefully will be never).
Old 26th November 2009
  #68
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarp2600 View Post
I built myself a chickenwire capsule that goes around the mic and can be attached to a mic clamb for these kind of problems. Works fine, although it takes some time to convince the drummer that "it isn't about that you don't trust him, but that you are just very careful on your mic's".
:')
Yeah and again the fact that you and I are BUILDING these things ourselves is kind of perturbing.

Windscreens, pop filters, shock mounts make sense right?

Why not protective covers for recording in hazardous places??

Fletcher, come on show us the light! You guys have a small condenser that would love a helmet right?

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th November 2009
  #69
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doorknocker's Avatar
How many times did you have a drummer hit ANY mic? IMO there's a much higher chance that a singer will blow up a ribbon mic or that a guitar player will knock over a room mic when going into Angus Young-mode.

And even though the chickenwire is a smart idea, I'm not sure it would help it a drummer really DOES hit the mic unless the protective cover would be ultra-strong (and therefore prpbably getting in the way of the snare thus increasing the chances of a hit)
Old 26th November 2009
  #70
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
How many times did you have a drummer hit ANY mic? IMO there's a much higher chance that a singer will blow up a ribbon mic or that a guitar player will knock over a room mic when going into Angus Young-mode.

And even though the chickenwire is a smart idea, I'm not sure it would help it a drummer really DOES hit the mic unless the protective cover would be ultra-strong (and therefore prpbably getting in the way of the snare thus increasing the chances of a hit)

When you properly place a sdc on snare it is technically out of the way.

That doesn't stop people from hitting them.

with this thing its allowing you to place the mic close to the snare but with protection.

and if you're drummer can't avoid hitting it then they've ruined that part of the take either way you look at it.

too bad when you hit undo, you can't undo damage to your mic lol

so i see what you mean but i don't.

Drummers have eyes too.

but i'd rather he break a stick on some mesh than some mesh breaking on his stick.

Plus the right condensers on snare kick ass. thats the whole point of this thread.

Peace
Illumination
Old 26th November 2009
  #71
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

I'd never put an 84 on snare, f**k that. Keep those babies nice. I think in a battle of a drum stick the stick would win.

JL
Old 27th November 2009
  #72
Lives for gear
True

MUCH more important to keep your mics "nice" than to make the best sounding records you can

I ALWAYS make decisions based on what's best for the gear



Not
Old 27th November 2009
  #73
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
True

MUCH more important to keep your mics "nice" than to make the best sounding records you can

I ALWAYS make decisions based on what's best for the gear



Not
Well if you protect your equipment with these contraptions I just did the tutorial on and others have talked about your mics will not only look nice but they will actually still work if someone hits their helmet lol.

Peace
Illumination
Old 27th November 2009
  #74
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
True

MUCH more important to keep your mics "nice" than to make the best sounding records you can

I ALWAYS make decisions based on what's best for the gear



Not
To each his own, I would never put a $1000 vintage mic 3 inches from a flying drum stick, it's not like you can't get a good snare sound with another mic. There's probably a 57 on half the records ever made.
Old 27th November 2009
  #75
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paul999's Avatar
 

Since originally posting this I made some samples of the km84 to use with less than trustable drummers. Because I love the km84's as overheads I will be buying one for the snare position but haven't taken them down from the O.H position. I have been using an sm-81 since the first post, which I will probably get stoned for saying. I can't see using an sm57 that often any more. The sm-81 is pretty damn good with the pad and roll off on.
Old 27th November 2009
  #76
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Froombosch's Avatar
 

I've used a km-84 a few times on snare. For rock I liked the standard 57. The snare is more in my face. I did use a lot of distressor to get it even more in the face. Not the subtile approach. When I simply needed the sound of a real kit, I would use a km-84 or a large diagram mike. Or not close-mike at all
Old 28th November 2009
  #77
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo View Post
To each his own, I would never put a $1000 vintage mic 3 inches from a flying drum stick, it's not like you can't get a good snare sound with another mic. There's probably a 57 on half the records ever made.
probably much more than half

but *I* prefer the sound of an 84, and so would never use a lesser mic (to my ears), given that clear preference, in order to 'protect' the mic against the remote possibility of it being hit

you can say that about anything

I CAN get a decent guitar sound with a cheap mic, like a 57, so why "risk" a ribbon or an 87 or UM70?

The singer might spit in it, so why use a 47 when some great vocals have been recorded with a 58?

why not just use $100 mics on everything 'just in case'?

And you can lock all your 'nice' mics up in the display case


Are we really going to say use the cheapest mic you can get away with to get a reasonably 'good' sound, when we actually think another mic would get a BETTER sound?
Old 28th November 2009
  #78
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul999 View Post
Since originally posting this I made some samples of the km84 to use with less than trustable drummers. Because I love the km84's as overheads I will be buying one for the snare position but haven't taken them down from the O.H position. I have been using an sm-81 since the first post, which I will probably get stoned for saying. I can't see using an sm57 that often any more. The sm-81 is pretty damn good with the pad and roll off on.
while nowhere near one of my favourite mics, the 81 at least has that condenser attack

the 84 has so much MORE whack or crack than a 57, it always amuses me when people assume it's going to be softer or more 'hi fi'
Old 28th November 2009
  #79
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syra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
the 84 has so much MORE whack or crack than a 57, it always amuses me when people assume it's going to be softer or more 'hi fi'
ok ok ...I'll give it another shot, alright? heh ... for the next record in January KM84 goes on top of snare. Seriously. I haven't been using them on much else anyway (except under snare). The Josephson E22 is also another great condenser for drum close-micing. Especially toms. Pricey, but still better than putting C12As in harms way
Old 28th November 2009
  #80
AB3
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Well - if price is no object - why not use a DPA 4011 on the snare. It should sound very accurate and may be better than the Neumann KM84.

And they are easier to replace because they are still being manufactured.

Personally, I like dynamic mics on the snare and it has nothing to do with price. Though I did like the Josephson E22s - and that is a mic that can take some abuse and has a beautiful sound.
Old 28th November 2009
  #81
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paul999's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
while nowhere near one of my favourite mics, the 81 at least has that condenser attack

the 84 has so much MORE whack or crack than a 57, it always amuses me when people assume it's going to be softer or more 'hi fi'

Love the condensor attack.
Old 28th November 2009
  #82
Here for the gear
 

4011 - heck yeah that's what i'm sayin'
more color from an 84 tho

What made me stop using a 57 on SNARE was the sound of the HI-HAT

Workin' on a drums sound,every thing sounds pretty good, but that frickin'
hat sounds like crap! harsh and ugly.
solo the hat and it sounds good, reverse phase and it's different, not better.
i go back to the whole kit for a while and at some point am soloing the snare,
which also sounds pretty good ( i like the sound of snare thru a 57 ) and i start
thinking 'hmm sounds good, sure is a lot of hat tho... and it sounds like total trash.

The off axis sound that comes into a 57 sounds like [email protected] !

The off axis sound that comes into a 57 sounds like [email protected] !

i just thought that was worth repeating.

yeah i coulda dicked around with mic placement of snare, and hat mics
and all that rot, but why not just put a GOOD mic up there and everything
gets better. If ya really like that 57 kack on snare tape the 451, 84, 4011,
to the bottom of the 57 so IT gets hit, record 'em both, (& just use the condenser
in the mix).
Old 29th November 2009
  #83
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
probably much more than half

but *I* prefer the sound of an 84, and so would never use a lesser mic (to my ears), given that clear preference, in order to 'protect' the mic against the remote possibility of it being hit

you can say that about anything

I CAN get a decent guitar sound with a cheap mic, like a 57, so why "risk" a ribbon or an 87 or UM70?

The singer might spit in it, so why use a 47 when some great vocals have been recorded with a 58?

why not just use $100 mics on everything 'just in case'?

And you can lock all your 'nice' mics up in the display case


Are we really going to say use the cheapest mic you can get away with to get a reasonably 'good' sound, when we actually think another mic would get a BETTER sound?
+1 on that! (even it's not my taste to put a km84 on a snare, but that's just me)
btw when you put such a mic on a snare it implies that the drummer should be skilled enough for a great record. And therefore to be able to hit the snare in the right spots...so you don't have to worry too much for your lovely mic...If not means that a km84 it's not going to do a better job on a poor performance.
Just my 0.02$,

bests,
Cheu
Old 2nd December 2009
  #84
Lives for gear
I've never recorded anything where I felt "this is so crappy it's not WORTH my doing everything I can to make it sound as good as I can"

Never.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #85
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illacov's Avatar
 

All you guys talkin about great drummers etc..

You never had a drummer go into the zone and close their eyes?

Mistakes happen, get over it.

A little protection never hurt anyone.

I could have Eric Clapton in my studio, doesn't mean I'm going to have amps around that don't have their grilles in place. Even the best of us have a bad day.

I don't think a pop filter, cable guard or shock mount implies anything about the person who's using the equipment, any more than a seatbelt implies you're not a safe driver.

When I visit someones studio, the presence of equipment that says "I care about my gear," is what makes me respect them more than what they own or why they own it. Every famous musician I've worked with, has little knick knacks that they use to protect their stuff...We should embrace that philosophy rather than chastise it.

Peace
Illumination
Old 2nd December 2009
  #86
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
The singer might spit in it, so why use a 47 when some great vocals have been recorded with a 58?

why not just use $100 mics on everything 'just in case'?

And you can lock all your 'nice' mics up in the display case


Are we really going to say use the cheapest mic you can get away with to get a reasonably 'good' sound, when we actually think another mic would get a BETTER sound?
Well said!

I saw similar discussions here where folks were afraid of using say a Beyer M160 on guitar cabs.... While I won't put it right on the grille (it sounds better that way anyway) I think that the M160 is one of the best mics for distorted guitar and it's been used on many classic recordings. So little me shouldn't use it because it's a ribbon and might get blown? So why buy that mic in the first place? I feel much the same about the KM 84 which didn't impress me on snare at all BTW but that's just me.

If a 84 or M160 goes down after say 5 years of constant use, well then you can re-ribbon or re-capsule it, big deal. It will have paid for itself long before. ANY tool will wear out at some point even when taking the outmost care - unless you don't use it.

The Beatles used KM 54s on guitar amps, sure these mics were cheaper then (but I'm not even sure when you compare it in 1964 money) and it was the Beatles but I think it says a lot about todays's production attitude when gear is seen as investment and for the show-off value and not for RECORDING MUSIC.
Old 2nd December 2009
  #87
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hobson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
The Beatles used KM 54s on guitar amps, sure these mics were cheaper then (but I'm not even sure when you compare it in 1964 money) and it was the Beatles but I think it says a lot about todays's production attitude when gear is seen as investment and for the show-off value and not for RECORDING MUSIC.
slightly OT, but:

Recording The Beatles book (and Geoff's book as well - if memory serves) - state that the KM54 was also used as the under snare mic on Ringo's Kit (after Norman Smith left) - and it did shorten the life span of the capsule... balance that with the rigid (albeit wide latitude given to Beatles production) rules in place by EMI in regards to acceptable mic to source distances... the white coats placed the mics - only certain engineers were allowed to alter that placement... in the early days..

reminds me of Spinal Tap - if you were to make Nigel an engineer... "that mic.. don't touch it.. in fact, don't even look at it..." heh
Old 7th December 2009
  #88
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DONNX's Avatar
 

"With older microphone types, be aware that some diaphragms can indeed be damaged by excessively high SPLs. The Neumann M50, KM53, KM54, KM56, SM2, SM23, KM88 and TLM50 all have nickel diaphragms that can be damaged by high SPLs. Also, older U47s and M49s may still have PVC diaphragms, which become brittle with age." Karl Winkler - Neumann

Km84 on a snare. Why take a chance if you don't have to?
Old 7th December 2009
  #89
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

My former boss at Motown ran the Gotham Audio shop for a number of years. He told me that he never once encountered a Neumann microphone capsule that had been damaged by anything other than a sharp object tearing the diaphragm.
Old 7th December 2009
  #90
Gear Addict
 
Seb RIOU's Avatar
 

KM84 on snare : sure.
RCA 74 on loud guitar cabs : every day
RCA 44 on vocals : gimme two
SM57 on banged frying pan :euh .. wait, I have a cheap tube LDC lying around
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