The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
What's the most important piece in a Vocal Chain after the Mic C800G ?? Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 3rd August 2009
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

What's the most important piece in a Vocal Chain after the Mic C800G ??

Hello Guys,

I got a special question. I'm not a pro audio engineer. I'm more a Singer / Songwriter in a Home Recording Project Studio. I plan to build a little but very precious Projekt Home Studio.

I'd like to do some of state of the art R&B Vocal Recordings at home. As I read often here on GS a very common chain for R&B/Hip Hop

is Sony C800G - Neve 1073 - Tube Tech CL1B - Apogee Converters

I know of course the singer and the acoustic is also a part of the chain lol..

Here's what I have right now:

PC Quad Core using Cubase 4.5
RME HDSP AIO
Genelec 8050
UAD-1 with nearly all Plugz
DBX 576 (I hate this Boxx!!!!) wanna sell it.

But my costliest pieces are the Mic and my 8050's

I'm proud to say that I'm right now an owner of a used Sony C800G.
I was getting a great deal for it.
But I know that I'm of course still on the beginning for a high end Recording Chain and the mic alone isn't everything

Soo here's what I want to know from you pros. What do you thing is the most important Piece of Gear after having the Mic allready ???


I know first of all is

1.) Singer
2.) The Mic

3.) The Preamp ??? (wanna buy a used 1073 or 1272) or maybe an 737sp

or is the acoustic especially for my C800G more important on this point ??? (I know this mic is very very sensitive)

4.) Converters (what do you thing on my RME AIO with my combo??)

For the acoustic I'm not sure what's the best solution. I think about getting a used professional Vocal Booth in germany we've got the studiobox. Or do you think I could save myself some money and go for a RealTraps Portable Vocal Booth ?? For control room acoustic I want maybe some of those Auralex modules to fix this problem a bit...

I know of course that everything on this point is important. But if you where on my situation, for what piece of gear do you would spend your money first after mark off the mic and the monitors ??

Is it in your opinion
the Preamp (1073 or Avalon 737),
the compressor (CL1B, Summit TLA-100, LA-2A)
the Converters (Apogee Rosetta 800) or are my RME AIO good enough??
or last but not least should I spend my money more on the Acoustics ??

Ok last question: What dou you think if I want save my money on the Compressor with a Really Nice Compressor from FMR Audio and spend more money on the other things???

I hope yall could give me very much advises and help me a little bit. Sorry for english mistakes here...

Kind Regards

***R&B Vocalisto ***
Old 3rd August 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by R&B-Vocalisto View Post
Hello Guys,

I got a special question. I'm not a pro audio engineer. I'm more a Singer / Songwriter in a Home Recording Project Studio. I plan to build a little but very precious Projekt Home Studio.

I'd like to do some of state of the art R&B Vocal Recordings at home. As I read often here on GS a very common chain for R&B/Hip Hop

is Sony C800G - Neve 1073 - Tube Tech CL1B - Apogee Converters

I know of course the singer and the acoustic is also a part of the chain lol..

Here's what I have right now:

PC Quad Core using Cubase 4.5
RME HDSP AIO
Genelec 8050
UAD-1 with nearly all Plugz
DBX 576 (I hate this Boxx!!!!) wanna sell it.

But my costliest pieces are the Mic and my 8050's

I'm proud to say that I'm right now an owner of a used Sony C800G.
I was getting a great deal for it.
But I know that I'm of course still on the beginning for a high end Recording Chain and the mic alone isn't everything

Soo here's what I want to know from you pros. What do you thing is the most important Piece of Gear after having the Mic allready ???


I know first of all is

1.) Singer
2.) The Mic

3.) The Preamp ??? (wanna buy a used 1073 or 1272) or maybe an 737sp

or is the acoustic especially for my C800G more important on this point ??? (I know this mic is very very sensitive)

4.) Converters (what do you thing on my RME AIO with my combo??)

For the acoustic I'm not sure what's the best solution. I think about getting a used professional Vocal Booth in germany we've got the studiobox. Or do you think I could save myself some money and go for a RealTraps Portable Vocal Booth ?? For control room acoustic I want maybe some of those Auralex modules to fix this problem a bit...

I know of course that everything on this point is important. But if you where on my situation, for what piece of gear do you would spend your money first after mark off the mic and the monitors ??

Is it in your opinion
the Preamp (1073 or Avalon 737),
the compressor (CL1B, Summit TLA-100, LA-2A)
the Converters (Apogee Rosetta 800) or are my RME AIO good enough??
or last but not least should I spend my money more on the Acoustics ??

Ok last question: What dou you think if I want save my money on the Compressor with a Really Nice Compressor from FMR Audio and spend more money on the other things???

I hope yall could give me very much advises and help me a little bit. Sorry for english mistakes here...

Kind Regards

***R&B Vocalisto ***
.Great recording space professionally treated.
Great artist
800g...although I hate them as they are SO over rated
Neve 1073 a real one
La2a
Experience as a recordist /mixer or hire someone who has.
Old 4th August 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 
goldenlotus's Avatar
 

Yep get the 1073. Upgrading your acoustics is very important too probably more than the pre, but if you are speaking gear get the Neve.
Old 4th August 2009
  #4
With a c800g, you definitely need to get a great recording space, because the mic will pickup any crap in your room (echos, flutters etc).

I have tested the CL1b and while it may not be an exact reproduction, the emulation in the focusrite Liquid Mix is pretty darn good for it! Especially now, they are blowing up this piece of gear for so low, it's incredible. You'll get the CL1b and tons of other great comps and EQs.

I find the c800g is a one trick pony, I've had some success with the Sony c800g and the 414 XLS with a 1073. I think once everything is mixed, it's tough to say which one was which really... but the 414 is way more versatile than the Sony, and way less expensive.
Old 4th August 2009
  #5
Lives for gear
 
jmikeperkins's Avatar
After the mic, the next most important thing is the mic pre. After that, the most important thing is the compressor. After that, good outboard eq. After that, reverb. I am not a big fan of plug in compressors and eq, as the real thing ususally sounds better and is easier to use. You should strongly consider buying something like the Manley Voxbox because it has a very high quality mic pre, LA-2A type optical compressor (which is best for vocals) and a high quality eq ALL IN ONE UNIT. It would be everything you would need to record top quality vocals. There is nothing wrong with a vintage 1073, great mic pre and eq, but they are over priced (in my opinion) and you still need a compressor. You should look into the Manley Voxbox.

Since you already own the C800G then you should try and make it work for you. Its not my favorite mic, especially for the money, but its popular in some rap/hip-hop circles and it looks impressive in a video with the big heat sink sticking out the side of the mic. If you have a very intense and strident voice, with loud peaks that can sometimes be harsh, then the C800G will work pretty good at smoothing that out and keeping things under control. If your voice is softer, has a melodic quality to it, and is better balanced volume wise, then I would consider trading or selling that mic and getting the best vintage Neumann that you can afford. But having said that, every voice is different and you really do not know what will sound best until you try different mics and find out for yourself.

J. Mike Perkins
Old 4th August 2009
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Warren Beck's Avatar
 

Since you have decided upon the mic - I presume for your voice as opposed to others, it must be the right unit for your voice. A dark(er) and compressor are good choices. The 1073 is a good choice (and as Mr. Perkins truthfully states - vintage ones are over priced) but it would be best for you to get a few items that are not just one trick ponies. Examples would be the Universal Audio mic pre+compressor, Avalon (not a fan), Manley(not a fan), Focusrite, Millennia Media, etc.. there are many with tubes, solid state, or combinations that will colour (or not) the sound, and give you better bang for your buck. 1073, + LA2A/CL1B runs about $8-$10 thousand dollars. So imho get a pre/compressor in one box, and spend the rest of your money on a room/vocal booth. For you will still need a quality equaliser, and reverb unit - GML and AMS are dynamite and are keeping with your spending. The booth will assist in taming the mic, the pre/compressor combo will save you huge $$$$, you will need an EQ to help seat the vox, and a reverb to polish it all out. Converters, wire, etc... have fun it is only money.

Best would be to do is sell the Sony, get a 414, U87, or pro mic under $3500 that is generally a decent mic for generally many voices, mic pre/compressor box as outlined above, and your room. Waves or other quality plug-ins, and start with that. Get some experience, some clients, make some money, then buy more stuff when your stuff stops making you money (or happy).

Not to worry about your English at all. It is much better than many native English speakers.

Regards,
Old 4th August 2009
  #7
Lives for gear
 
FadersmakmeHappy's Avatar
 

Vocalisto,

While its cool to rip on the 800, its a great mic for r&b. Don't just sell it because a bunch of people are not fans. Get a good signal chain and experiment.

Yes the venerable old 1073 does sound great, but so does an Avedis MA5 or Aurora Audio pre for that Neve sound.
You should not disqualify the 737 either. It has a opto-compressor built in to it that will work for taming the peaks and it has a silky clean pre that a lot of people have used for R&B hits.

As far as an AD/DA unit is concerned an Apogee Rossetta, Lynx Aurora, or a Lavry converter will work with your RME card.

You might try and rent a few pieces of gear or book some time with your mic at a local well equiped studio to experiment with different signal chains.
You will stumble on to one that you like and let your ears be the judge.

A couple more pres that I love for vocals are the GML 8200 and the LaChappel.
Old 4th August 2009
  #8
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Beware that the 800s have a broad pattern and are lots more sensitive to room acoustics than many mikes.
Old 4th August 2009
  #9
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Beware that the 800s have a broad pattern and are lots more sensitive to room acoustics than many mikes.


Room acoustics are extremely important when using the C800G. The preamp would be secondary in this instance.
Old 4th August 2009
  #10
Lives for gear
 
The MPCist's Avatar
 

I like the Tubetech over the LA2A especially when you need a bit more control while recording.... tonewise, they're totally different though with the TT being cleaner.
Old 5th August 2009
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Tips for Acoustics ??

Hey guys,

thank you for all replies. But I don't want to sell my C800G because I'm happy with it. So I notice that ya'll mean the room acoustics is more important than maybe a high end compressor or high end AD/DA Converter.

So can you give me advises how could I fix the acoustic for my very sensitive C-800G ???

I'm thinking about the PVB (Portable Vocal Booth) from Real Traps. Wich would be the cheapest method.

Or something from Auralex ?(Which product do you recommend for vocals?)

Or do you think a professional vocal booth is the best way for a Home Recording Studio to fix the acoustic problem ??

thanks a lot
kind regards
Old 5th August 2009
  #12
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by R&B-Vocalisto View Post
Hey guys,

thank you for all replies. But I don't want to sell my C800G because I'm happy with it. So I notice that ya'll mean the room acoustics is more important than maybe a high end compressor or high end AD/DA Converter.

So can you give me advises how could I fix the acoustic for my very sensitive C-800G ???

I'm thinking about the PVB (Portable Vocal Booth) from Real Traps. Wich would be the cheapest method.

Or something from Auralex ?(Which product do you recommend for vocals?)

Or do you think a professional vocal booth is the best way for a Home Recording Studio to fix the acoustic problem ??

thanks a lot
kind regards

The PVB will certainly help a lot I think.
You seem to be looking at very expensive stuff, so surely you can afford a couple of grand at least for room acoustics?
After you've done your acoustics, C800G -> Avedis MA5 -> CL1B would get you great sound. I say MA5 instead of Neve 10xx because in my experience you don't REALLY need to EQ too much (certainly in terms of boosting) when you use the C800G due to its extended highs, so you get that record ready sound when you're recording and anything you don't like you can cut while mixing. The MA5's are very Neve-like, though my experience is that they're more hi-fi which could be a good thing for modern R&B. Plus with an API lunchbox you can always add some EQ's or preamps for reasonable prices when you want other flavors or options.

But get your acoustics sorted first if you can.
Old 5th August 2009
  #13
measure your room and send the layout to the auralex guys the dimensions

they would try to give you the best treat with the auralex productions out of the room.
Old 5th August 2009
  #14
Lives for gear
 
alexstringer's Avatar
 

To me the best vocal chain you can get for female R&B is C800G>Neve 1081> vintage Teletronix La2a or 1176 Blue stripe or La2a>Blue stripe if you can afford this luxury
Old 5th August 2009
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer View Post
To me the best vocal chain you can get for female R&B is C800G>Neve 1081> vintage Teletronix La2a or 1176 Blue stripe or La2a>Blue stripe if you can afford this luxury

Oh my god!! No I'm sorry that's a little bit tooooo much luxury for me dude heh
Old 5th August 2009
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
The PVB will certainly help a lot I think.
You seem to be looking at very expensive stuff, so surely you can afford a couple of grand at least for room acoustics?
After you've done your acoustics, C800G -> Avedis MA5 -> CL1B would get you great sound. I say MA5 instead of Neve 10xx because in my experience you don't REALLY need to EQ too much (certainly in terms of boosting) when you use the C800G due to its extended highs, so you get that record ready sound when you're recording and anything you don't like you can cut while mixing. The MA5's are very Neve-like, though my experience is that they're more hi-fi which could be a good thing for modern R&B. Plus with an API lunchbox you can always add some EQ's or preamps for reasonable prices when you want other flavors or options.

But get your acoustics sorted first if you can.

Thank you! Ohh man I've tried really a lot of pre's but I've tried them all in a very bad living room acoustic.

I know I'm not able in a bad acoustic to do a very good comparson with all these different pre's but I've tried at first

AMS Neve 1073 DPD / DPA
Brent Averill 1073 + BAE 1084.
Avedis MA5
Avalon 737sp

They're all great. But It's really hard for me to tell which one is the best.

For lead vocals I find that the AMS Neve 1073 DPD is very good because it also has much highs. So with my C800G I actually don't need to use any EQ with the Neve 1073 DPD. It's also collored but still precious.
The only thing is if I'm recording a choir with lots of backround vocals maybe for the chorus then it seem like I had to much EQ on the vocals but there is absolute no EQ be touched. I think this is because the DPD hast to much highs for backround Vocals... but for lead Vocals it's nearly perfekt!

The BAE Stuff soundz also very nice. They are more darker and thicker! And they have less highs than the DPD. But I think it's better to turn the highs on later after the recording session.

The MA5 in my Opinion sounds very different in comparson with all others. to it doesn't collor the sound really much like the other Neve Style Pres. But I could go wrong with these opinion.

the Avalon 737sp is also very good to me it has that typicall smooth american R&B Vocal sound with my C800G. But it has not that fatness, larger than life and colored sound like the Neve 1073 style pres.

By the way what do yall think about the Auralex MAXWall 1141VB ???
Can I do really great recordings with this maxwall kit ???
cheers
Old 5th August 2009
  #17
Lives for gear
 
vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R&B-Vocalisto View Post
Hey guys,

thank you for all replies. But I don't want to sell my C800G because I'm happy with it. So I notice that ya'll mean the room acoustics is more important than maybe a high end compressor or high end AD/DA Converter.

So can you give me advises how could I fix the acoustic for my very sensitive C-800G ???

I'm thinking about the PVB (Portable Vocal Booth) from Real Traps. Wich would be the cheapest method.

Or something from Auralex ?(Which product do you recommend for vocals?)

Or do you think a professional vocal booth is the best way for a Home Recording Studio to fix the acoustic problem ??

thanks a lot
kind regards
Anything works for deadening a room, just string up some blankets.

As for a pre, forget the 1073. Get something old and tube to warm up your vocals.
Old 5th August 2009
  #18
Lives for gear
 

obviously if the room isn't treated extremely well your other choices will be less important because the "better" the microphone often (when dealing with condensors) the more sensitive it'll be. i'm an R&b singer / rapper and i have used this chain and found it very pleasing:
c800g -> 1073 -> blackface 1176 / summit tla-100.

if you can swing that you'll be more than pleased. i'm not a room treatment expert so i can't help you there unfortunately.
Old 5th August 2009
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

a mute button.
Old 5th August 2009
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

just kidding, haha
Old 6th August 2009
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Acoustics

Does any one know how good is the Auralex MAXWall kit 1141VB ???

One guy told me there are amazing good.. are they ??

Or do yall have any other suggestions ??
Old 6th August 2009
  #22
Lives for gear
 
dannycurtean@yah's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R&B-Vocalisto View Post
Hello Guys,

I got a special question. I'm not a pro audio engineer. I'm more a Singer / Songwriter in a Home Recording Project Studio. I plan to build a little but very precious Projekt Home Studio.

I'd like to do some of state of the art R&B Vocal Recordings at home. As I read often here on GS a very common chain for R&B/Hip Hop

is Sony C800G - Neve 1073 - Tube Tech CL1B - Apogee Converters

I know of course the singer and the acoustic is also a part of the chain lol..

Here's what I have right now:

PC Quad Core using Cubase 4.5
RME HDSP AIO
Genelec 8050
UAD-1 with nearly all Plugz
DBX 576 (I hate this Boxx!!!!) wanna sell it.

But my costliest pieces are the Mic and my 8050's

I'm proud to say that I'm right now an owner of a used Sony C800G.
I was getting a great deal for it.
But I know that I'm of course still on the beginning for a high end Recording Chain and the mic alone isn't everything

Soo here's what I want to know from you pros. What do you thing is the most important Piece of Gear after having the Mic allready ???


I know first of all is

1.) Singer
2.) The Mic

3.) The Preamp ??? (wanna buy a used 1073 or 1272) or maybe an 737sp

or is the acoustic especially for my C800G more important on this point ??? (I know this mic is very very sensitive)

4.) Converters (what do you thing on my RME AIO with my combo??)

For the acoustic I'm not sure what's the best solution. I think about getting a used professional Vocal Booth in germany we've got the studiobox. Or do you think I could save myself some money and go for a RealTraps Portable Vocal Booth ?? For control room acoustic I want maybe some of those Auralex modules to fix this problem a bit...

I know of course that everything on this point is important. But if you where on my situation, for what piece of gear do you would spend your money first after mark off the mic and the monitors ??

Is it in your opinion
the Preamp (1073 or Avalon 737),
the compressor (CL1B, Summit TLA-100, LA-2A)
the Converters (Apogee Rosetta 800) or are my RME AIO good enough??
or last but not least should I spend my money more on the Acoustics ??

Ok last question: What dou you think if I want save my money on the Compressor with a Really Nice Compressor from FMR Audio and spend more money on the other things???

I hope yall could give me very much advises and help me a little bit. Sorry for english mistakes here...

Kind Regards

***R&B Vocalisto ***
Considering you have an awesome mic to begin with, I say the compressor is the next most important thing after mic. Hit or miss....
Old 6th August 2009
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by R&B-Vocalisto View Post
Does any one know how good is the Auralex MAXWall kit 1141VB ???

One guy told me there are amazing good.. are they ??

Or do yall have any other suggestions ??
i don't know about that specific product but the concept looks good. i was just at james lugo's spot (moderator here) and the way he did which i'd never seen before was he had a sliding glass door into the control room then gave like 5 inches of room then had another sliding glass door (floated the doors) and treated a small vocal booth. i sang in there with some sickkkk telefunken mics and it sounded great.
Old 7th August 2009
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Ken Lewis's Avatar
wow, i see alot of C800G bashing on this thread. My own personal experience is this. I've owned one for well over a decade and use it quite a bit on lots of different stuff.

Specific to vocalists, Every time I've brought it to a session that i was tracking and someone else was producing, we would line up the producers 2 favorite mics plus the C800G, put em in a formation in front of the vocalist in such a way that all the capsules are very close to each other in kind of a triangle so a single windscreen can about cover them all. Put them all thru the same type of preamp and level match them.

Then i would label the mics A - B - C on the console and mix up the order and allow the producer to listen, switch at will and blindly pick his favorite, strictly from what his ears liked best.

My C800G has never lost. Not against U47's, C12's, 414's, Milab, U87, U67 and i'm sure other mics. This is not me picking, this is the producer and / or the artist picking blindly which one sounds best to their ears, usually accompanied by a completely dumbfounded look when i tell them which mic they picked.

One time ever we switched it out with Mary J Blige to an old original C12, best C12 i've ever heard, which was just a different sonic approach that suited the particular song we were recording. Darker and slightly warmer and more vintage sounding with the C12.

Now i am absolutely certain there are "better" mics out there, or at least ones that would beat this mic in a blind shootout to some ears. But the above is my honest experience. and I've never heard a singer sonically sound bad or even mediocre on this mic. Often with singers who are less experienced with being in a really high end studio, when they step behind that mic and start singing it usually is followed by laughter at how they have never heard themselves sound so good thru a mic before.

and to the original poster, my vocal chain is a Groove Tubes Vipre mic pre, Thermionic Culture Phoenix compressor into Apogee convertors and its the most present, 3 dimensional sound, its just amazing and clear and open and present. If i had to choose either the Vipre or the Phoenix, i'd probably choose the Vipre.

Also sounds great on acoustic guitars, and just about anything else i've put in front of it. Strings, horns, etc... except it sounded terrible on the outside head of a kick drum, but GREAT on a floor tom. go figure.
Old 8th August 2009
  #25
Lives for gear
 
latestflavor's Avatar
 

nice ken.

well first off, you have to have a place to track vocals properly. if you're hearing slapback or first reflections you've wasted your money on a c800g.

second, while it would be nice to have a 1081 (sounds like you can't afford this or a 1073 plus comps), there are a lot of great modern preamps today, so i would say the compressor will yield more bang for the buck improvement. having said that you're still looking at $1k for a single channel pre at least and $2500 for a Cl1b.

Having said that R&B must have that popping through the universe vocal, so you may want to think about that 1081. Maybe another comp and limiter depending on your dynamics. Sorry, dunno the RME AIO. Remember to go 24/96 and find a good dithering algo or another way to print it to 16/24.
Old 8th August 2009
  #26
Lives for gear
 
feck's Avatar
Agreed, our C800G has never sounded anything other than great on vocalists. It isn't always exactly the RIGHT sound, but it always sounds sonically great. I imagine people might have myriad reasons for "bashing" it, but I personally can't see any reason why anyone would want to. It is a professional, well made piece of equipment, end of story. Cool to hear about the blind tests and good experiences, Ken.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
PhilipJ / So Much Gear, So Little Time
9
opposite.lock. / So Much Gear, So Little Time
2
Riad / So Much Gear, So Little Time
48

Forum Jump
Forum Jump