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Neve 33609 or Teletronix LA-2A
Old 6th July 2009
  #31
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by malice View Post
SAnd beware of that Fletcher dude, he's trying to sell his ****

and he's often right about it
Thanks for thinking I'm often right... but I work in "marketing / distribution" for a microphone manufacturer these days. I have no interest in selling gear anymore [and a "non-compete" document to prove it].
Old 6th July 2009
  #32
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekis View Post
Years ago I met many pro-audio gear brokers at the Record Plant, Media Sound, and Power Station auctions.
I was at all of those auctions... perhaps we've met?


Quote:
They were buying up all the great stuff that rank and file engineers like me use at work everyday. They took that stuff, created and unrealistic voodoo-mystique around it and jacked the price way up and began selling to rich (mostly Japanese) collectors.
Yup.

Man's gotta feed his family... no?

Quote:
Once before the internet was invented, I had a conversation with one of these guys. (who still sells stuff around here today and is generally regarded as a "stand up dude") I said, "Hey, I saw that you advertised $9500.00 for a Fairchild 660 in the back of Mix magazine!" His reply, "Yes, I did." My reply, "You know damn well that they're not worth that much!" His reply, "I know I just wanted to see if anyone would bite." I said, "That's wrong! You're telling everyone out there that a 660 is worth $9500, 'because I saw it in Mix!'" He said, "I know." And that's exactly what I'm seeing happen with this whole "metal knob" 33609 BS!
Well at least I know that isn't me because when I was with M-A we NEVER advertised a price... EVER.

Quote:
Did you notice that Fletcher still just tried to sell you everything that Mercenary stocks?(I guess they don't stock UA) It that what GS is REALLY all about...?
Well yes, this is all GS is about which is damn unfortunate... and I no longer work for Mercenary so I don't really give a rats ass about what they do or don't stock [they didn't hawk UA stuff because I thought is sucks... tomorrow could be different for all I know].

Much like you I have more than a few gold records on the wall [give a call, I'll let you see them]... no Grammy® nominations but I've picked up more than a few half-grammies in bar rooms in my younger days.

Peace.
Old 6th July 2009
  #33
tekis
Guest
"I've no interest in selling gear anymore..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Thanks for thinking I'm often right... but I work in "marketing / distribution" for a microphone manufacturer these days. I have no interest in selling gear anymore [and a "non-compete" document to prove it].
But I sell microphones...(gear?)

Yes, I met you( real name, Craig) and your "companion", Carl, who stood by the payphones most of the time at Record Plant. No, that was another broker (snake) in that story.

And yes, you still "support" your "family" by goading these gullible sheep here on GearMonkeys into believing that there's something in a "metal-snobbed" 33609 that'll make them better engineers/producers. You really haven't changed all that much from when you earned grammies at Boston's seedier bars. Since you posted your 33609 at $7k+, everyone on eBay has now jumped up to that price range.

This site is in bed with gear pimps/manufacturers. I hope I get kicked off soon!
Old 6th July 2009
  #34
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tekis View Post
But I sell microphones...(gear?)

Yes, I met you( real name, Craig) and your "companion", Carl, who stood by the payphones most of the time at Record Plant. No, that was another broker (snake) in that story.

And yes, you still "support" your "family" by goading these gullible sheep here on GearMonkeys into believing that there's something in a "metal-snobbed" 33609 that'll make them better engineers/producers. You really haven't changed all that much from when you earned grammies at Boston's seedier bars. Since you posted your 33609 at $7k+, everyone on eBay has now jumped up to that price range.

This site is in bed with gear pimps/manufacturers. I hope I get kicked off soon!
You sound like a man irritated at being priced out of the 33609. Why else would you be scouring the net looking at prices?
It's annoying that vintage prices are so ridiculously expensive, but at the same time it's pretty cool for owners of the gear like, like me.
Old 6th July 2009
  #35
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Well you're one up on me... you know my name, I don't know yours.

I did all 3 NY auctions [Media, Record Plant, Power Station] solo. Karl was on the staff after Media and the Record Plant and left long before Power Station [though I did work for the auctioneers right up until the PS auction... which if you were there it was immediately apparent to anyone in the audience that the price they got for the building meant that the auction wasn't going to go through... which was how it became Avatar].

As for the value of something... if a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell and they can agree on a price then that is the price for the transaction. If several transactions occur at that price then that is the approximate market value.

In my case I'm not willing to part with my 33609 for less than around $7500. It is a useful tool for me but in the scheme of things I could live without it for that amount of money. If someone wants to pay that, fine. If nobody wants to pay that, fine.

There are lots of engineers who will work for a lot less money than me too... but if I'm the one someone wants to hire so long as they meet my price I will work for them. Same thing as the hardware, if a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell and they can agree on a price then that is the price for the transaction... be it a service or piece of equipment, same rules apply.

As for goading anyone into believing that a "metal knob" 33609 will make them a better engineer I sure as hell hope I have never done such a thing. The "metal knob" 33609 [when properly maintained] is however a superior sounding unit to a 33609/C or a 33609/J or a 33609/J-D. Being fully discrete with the correct transformers does affect the quality of the audio... and while tools don't make the engineer, if you're going to take the time and money to own the tools, they might as well be good ones. No?

So... what do you do for a living?

I mean besides whining.

Peace.
Old 6th July 2009
  #36
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malice's Avatar
 

Damn, I did it again,

I intended to say something nice about Fletcher, and it is turning into bickering and attacks ...

Sorry Fletcher, not at all my intention.

And for what it worth, let's make it very clear that

1) Fletcher was always straight when he was pimping gear about the eventuality his advices could be biased. Links to his shop were clear, and he warned us clearly in his post

2) Fletcher is not trying to sell a metal knob Neve comp, he was trying to propose cheaper alternative.

3) If the original poster still wants to buy a Neve to a second hand shop, I guess chosing Mercenary wouldn't be dumb ...

That said,

again,


my bad Fletcher

peace

malice
Old 6th July 2009
  #37
Gear Addict
 

I still miss someone telling me how the Neve 33609 work as a vocal and instrument tracking compressor..
I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be absolutely brilliant at doing that job... Why is it ONLY nice if used as a drum buss compressor or other stereo applications??? I mean, it's NEVE!! And people say it's similar to a Neve 2254, just a little cleaner sounding. If that's true then I don't get why it wouldn't be AMAZING as a vocal compressor......
What makes the LA-2A soooo much nicer for vocals/instruments?
The 33609 has even got way more control options (not that it should make it better, but it shouldn't make it worse either...)
Why don't anyone LOVE it for vocals?
Old 6th July 2009
  #38
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
The 33609 is 2x 32264a units in a rack mountable box [or I guess 4 as my 33609 is switchable between "stereo" and "quad"]. The 32264a is the compressor you would often find in the "correction section" of Neve 8068 [58 / 88] and 8078 consoles.

They're great for vocals... different than an LA-2A but often great. It all comes down to a matter of personal sense of aesthetic and the aesthetic of the artist with whom you're working.

Peace.
Old 6th July 2009
  #39
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Would the Vintage Design dual channel compressor be as good or better option than the 33609? It is at a great price at Mercenary. Looks like it had a $400 price drop recently as well. I love this compressor. Great tone.
Old 6th July 2009
  #40
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GYang's Avatar
I'm quite happy with re-issue LA-2A, together with newer tube comps like Tube Tech and DW Fearn.
33609 didn't work for me, vintage might have some magic, but I didn't try them (and have no big wish to do it).
I think that buying vintage histeria is pure bull $hit, as many high quality modern gears will do perfect job for what OT asked.
Old 6th July 2009
  #41
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FadersmakmeHappy's Avatar
 

I will add this one caveat.......I don't have a hell of a lot of experience with the 33609. But I just did a session on bass that the engineer was squashing with one. I came into the control room and ask him "what are you using on the bass it just sounds so big and heavy" Oh that's the Neve he replied. Sounded dark, squishy, and weighty. Kinda remined me of a bigger, heavier LA3A with a better top end.

He had a Distressor and a LA2A sitting in the rack and the Neve got patched in. Sounded great on cleanish electric guitars too.
Old 7th July 2009
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FadersmakmeHappy View Post
I will add this one caveat.......I don't have a hell of a lot of experience with the 33609. But I just did a session on bass that the engineer was squashing with one. I came into the control room and ask him "what are you using on the bass it just sounds so big and heavy" Oh that's the Neve he replied. Sounded dark, squishy, and weighty. Kinda remined me of a bigger, heavier LA3A with a better top end.

He had a Distressor and a LA2A sitting in the rack and the Neve got patched in. Sounded great on cleanish electric guitars too.
thanks! nice to know that it's not impossible to use the 33609 on other than stereo buss
Old 7th July 2009
  #43
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syra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarman View Post
thanks! nice to know that it's not impossible to use the 33609 on other than stereo buss
No one said it was impossible. The 33609 is a great compressor that works on everything. Its just that you can't beat an LA2A for vocal tracking. Its sound smooths out the harsh midrange in a way the 33609 can't.

Actually I will say that I prefer the J/D to the metal knob on vocals. Its color and attack/release suits them better.
Old 7th July 2009
  #44
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by syra View Post
Its just that you can't beat an LA2A for vocal tracking.
I would disagree with that statement. I think a Thermionic Culture "Phoenix" beats pretty much every LA-2A I've ever used... and there are a bunch of others that do as well, I just can't think of all of them at the moment.

Quote:
Its sound smooths out the harsh midrange in a way the 33609 can't.
I would disagree with that statement... then again I have a pretty excellent microphone collection at my disposal so I rarely have to deal with anything that resembles a "harsh midrange".
Old 7th July 2009
  #45
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syra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
I would disagree with that statement. I think a Thermionic Culture "Phoenix" beats pretty much every LA-2A I've ever used... and there are a bunch of others that do as well, I just can't think of all of them at the moment.
I sold my Phoenix after 2 years - good comp but I didn't like the color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
I would disagree with that statement... then again I have a pretty excellent microphone collection at my disposal so I rarely have to deal with anything that resembles a "harsh midrange".
I guess your "excellent microphone collection" is not that accurate... or you've never recorded a thin female voice belting notes up high...
Old 7th July 2009
  #46
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Syra, I know the guys at Thermionic pretty well... they could probably paint it any color you'd like. They just came out with some "red" anniversary units but I reckon if you'd like blue or green they could do those colors too.

As for my "excellent mic collection" we have all kinds of lovely tools so we can pick the best tool for the application. Of course we've had "thin" female singers belting notes way up high... and for them we have things like SM-7's with a Chandler TG-2 pre-amp and MC-77 compressor which can fatten up the thinnest of singers... and we have an ELA M 251 E and a KHE, and a UM-75, and a Josephson C-720 and a... and a... and a... and a....

There are very few times when we can't get the job done right [whatever "right" might be for the particular session at hand].

My point in all of this is that while you may find the LA-2A to be a favorite tool of yours [and there is nothing wrong with that] it is not always "the best" tool for the job. In your world it might be, in my world [and I dare say many other worlds] it's not.

To each their own? It's those differences of opinion and aesthetic that makes us all individuals in this art through science kinda craft.

My point was more that there are no "absolutes" in this endeavor than anything else. I hope we can at least agree on that.

Peace.
Old 7th July 2009
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Neve 22609 metal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarman View Post
I am thinking about buying a vintage 33609 (metal knobs) OR a vintage Teletronix LA-2A. It will be my first outboard compressor. I do alot of tracking/producing and mixing albums but until now I have lived fine with pro tools HD3, my two Telefunken V76 and 8 x V676a preamps, tape echos and spring reverbs and plug-ins for EQ and compression.

I will mainly be using it for tracking vocals (mostly female at the moment), but also bass, trumpet/saxophone, drums - and if I get the Neve 33609 I could also use that on the master bus for mix-down, which wouldn't be an option on LA-2A.

Neve 33609 is well known for being one of the very best bus-compressors available.
Teletronix LA-2A is well known for being excellent for tracking vocals, bass, etc...

But... Does anyone actually also prefer the 33609 for rock/pop vocals, bass, guitars, horns and other single instruments? If so, please tell me...

The Neve 33609 is the most versatile: I get two compressors in one, can use it for both mono and stereo applications, and I would deffinately be using it on the master bus for mix-down, improving my mixes in general. But is it as sweet and sexy as the LA-2A when it comes to the most important: tracking vocals? Or is the LA-2A just a bit over-rated..?
Some threads in here say that the 33609 is full of that magic gluey Neve coloration, other threads claim the opposite... (I want color!)

I'm into old school sounds, 70' soul/funk, psychedelic pop, hip-hop, rock...

I can only pick one compressor for now... please help me decide...
Hello Sugarman

I own 4 new 33609's JDs and 3 33609 old ones. Honestly they are a bit different but sometimes the old one does not do the trick as good as the new ones and vice versa..But generally I would start with a new one and then colect vintage ones when you get more money...there is a difference... but like I said, the new ones sometimes kicks the piss out of the old ones...
Old 7th July 2009
  #48
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Since the Vintage Design two channel unit cl1MKii, is not $3200 at Mercenary - has ANYONE compared it with the Neve 33609, new or old and have any comments? For that price, it would seem that it would be worth checking out.
Old 7th July 2009
  #49
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post

I own 4 new 33609's JDs and 3 33609 old ones. Honestly they are a bit different but sometimes the old one does not do the trick ..
7 x 33609 Man, that's something !!!
And I don't even like it (so much)
What else do you use (have)?
Old 7th July 2009
  #50
Gear Addict
 
nbrecording's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Hello Sugarman

I own 4 new 33609's JDs and 3 33609 old ones. Honestly they are a bit different but sometimes the old one does not do the trick as good as the new ones and vice versa..But generally I would start with a new one and then colect vintage ones when you get more money...there is a difference... but like I said, the new ones sometimes kicks the piss out of the old ones...
way to go dude!
Old 7th July 2009
  #51
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
Hello Sugarman

I own 4 new 33609's JDs and 3 33609 old ones.
OK,

this sentence just made my day.

Let's go even further : I'm gonna put fairchilds on every track or DA I have.

It's gonna be the most expensive outboard rack ever built !!

Way to go pal, you make us proud

malice
Old 8th July 2009
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Since the Vintage Design two channel unit cl1MKii, is not $3200 at Mercenary - has ANYONE compared it with the Neve 33609, new or old and have any comments? For that price, it would seem that it would be worth checking out.
Did you read what you wrote here?

$3200 for a remake of a compressor that isn't really worth more than $3500?

Tekis is right in a way. The studio business/selling is one of the only professional business that have no regulatory control or watchdogs to protect the businesses or the consumers when it comes to its own business conduct.

Basically its left to us to police ourselves and conduct our business in a fair and rightful manner. One of the problems for years is how to deal with speculators who drive the price up of certain pieces of equipment for their own financial gains without the regard of the businesses it affects. The studio business is not a lucrative one for its owners. With the financial recession that's happened all over the world its made it even more of a loss. The fact that so many people record at home has driven it down even further. The rise in the prices for electricity doesn't help. Basically in a lot of ways its a set up for a loss. But still, we stick it out because of our passion for the love of recording. To have people just feed off a passion is wrong and misguided. We have to stick together as a community. If not we will go the way of every business that has died out and no one really thinks about(does any remember the ice box makers and ice deliverers?).

Education and warning each other is probably our best weapon from unwarranted financial risk/speculation. This may not seem very "american" or "free enterprise" or "democratic" way to conduct business in a free economy, but we've seen what happens when people are left to their own devises without any kind of control.

To the guy who posted the original question you don't really need an original 33609 or La2a to get a great vocal sound. Heck the importance of the mic pre is overated as well. The mic is what the voice sees first and it puts the most sonic stamp on the vocal sound. So if you want to invest in anything, invest in at least 3 good vocal mics that can cover most ranges. With these you can use any good mic pre or vocal compressor(La2a,CL1B,TLA-100, 1176, MC76, GML 8900, EAR 660, etc or none) and they all will work fine. Trust me you'll be surprised at first how little it really does make a difference, but then you will get it.
Old 8th July 2009
  #53
Lives for gear
 

it took all of these posts for MichaelAngelo to give us 3 sentences of the truth.
And thank you Thrill for everything you said.

it's been a humorous read, though....
Old 8th July 2009
  #54
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Just to make sure - this is the compressor I am referring about:
Mercenary Audio - Vintage Design (CA73, CA82, C1, CL1 MK2, SUI1and DMP Neve 1073, Neve 1081 based Mic Pre, Compressor, EQ)
It is the CL1MkII.
I have it and think it is well worth the $3200. That $3200 is a price drop.
Have you used it and determined that it is not worth $3200?

And my question was about how it compares with the 33609 which I think is an appropriate question, especially since the new 33609 remakes can cost $4000 or so. The CL1MKII is not an exact copy as I understand it. It has some different features, etc.

Sorry if you do not like my question, but I would like to know the answer from people who have used both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Did you read what you wrote here?

$3200 for a remake of a compressor that isn't really worth more than $3500?

.
Old 8th July 2009
  #55
_rd
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_rd's Avatar
 

It's not surprising that 33609s often have a lower price tag than 33609J/Ds in Europe... And all that talk about "inspiration" from old overpriced units says much about the current state of music in general.
Old 8th July 2009
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Just to make sure - this is the compressor I am referring about:
Mercenary Audio - Vintage Design (CA73, CA82, C1, CL1 MK2, SUI1and DMP Neve 1073, Neve 1081 based Mic Pre, Compressor, EQ)
It is the CL1MkII.
I have it and think it is well worth the $3200. That $3200 is a price drop.
Have you used it and determined that it is not worth $3200?.
What something is worth or should cost is a whole other debate. Everyone has an opinion from the manufacturer to the seller and lastly the buyer.

Personally I have my own set limits on what i will pay for anything new, used or vintage and its a line that i refuse to cross. I do not feel paying an equivalent price for something that is either a remake, inspired by or a direct copy is right especially if the going price for the gear is copying is pretty much close or the same.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
And my question was about how it compares with the 33609 which I think is an appropriate question, especially since the new 33609 remakes can cost $4000 or so. The CL1MKII is not an exact copy as I understand it. It has some different features, etc.

Sorry if you do not like my question, but I would like to know the answer from people who have used both.
The only Vintage Design piece i've ever used is the ca 73. I wanted to try the summing box but it had been discontinued. I have had no desire to try the comp( i am not a comp focus person as some are around here). I have owned an original 33609 and a pair of 32264a's that were from Ocean Way. I've used a couple of C's and J's that is what most of the sound motels in NYC had in their racks. I tried the Vintech as well a while back which is inspired in the same way(combination of 2254/33609) and the Chandler LTD-2.

Right now i don't own any of them. I prefer the 2254's personally(which i did keep).
Old 8th July 2009
  #57
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Well you're one up on me... you know my name, I don't know yours.

I did all 3 NY auctions [Media, Record Plant, Power Station] solo. Karl was on the staff after Media and the Record Plant and left long before Power Station [though I did work for the auctioneers right up until the PS auction... which if you were there it was immediately apparent to anyone in the audience that the price they got for the building meant that the auction wasn't going to go through... which was how it became Avatar].

As for the value of something... if a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell and they can agree on a price then that is the price for the transaction. If several transactions occur at that price then that is the approximate market value.

In my case I'm not willing to part with my 33609 for less than around $7500. It is a useful tool for me but in the scheme of things I could live without it for that amount of money. If someone wants to pay that, fine. If nobody wants to pay that, fine.

There are lots of engineers who will work for a lot less money than me too... but if I'm the one someone wants to hire so long as they meet my price I will work for them. Same thing as the hardware, if a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell and they can agree on a price then that is the price for the transaction... be it a service or piece of equipment, same rules apply.

As for goading anyone into believing that a "metal knob" 33609 will make them a better engineer I sure as hell hope I have never done such a thing. The "metal knob" 33609 [when properly maintained] is however a superior sounding unit to a 33609/C or a 33609/J or a 33609/J-D. Being fully discrete with the correct transformers does affect the quality of the audio... and while tools don't make the engineer, if you're going to take the time and money to own the tools, they might as well be good ones. No?

So... what do you do for a living?

I mean besides whining.

Peace.
Ladies!...... LADIES!!!!
Old 8th July 2009
  #58
Gear Maniac
 

We have 33609B (metal-knob) and 3314a (metal concentric knob - for broadcast apps). No LA-2A. I track through the Neve's all the time and wow!! I wish I had LA-2A to try but ..... Neve's are top.
Old 8th July 2009
  #59
Lives for gear
 

You guys do know that you can make your own for approx $1000 (absolute max - best trafo;'s)?
Yeah it isn;t "vintage" but it would be sure as **** better that the neve re-issue and with the $6500 you can buy yourself a life
Sorry. Don't mean to facetious but I cant believe what some people will pay for something - I mean you hear people say they hate their Avalons 7" but they should keep it in the rack because clients may recognize it as pro gear and therefore that gets reflected back onto you as a pro because you have it in your rack?
Please. As stated here a million times nobody outside this industry has even heard of Neve or ApI or Avalon- never heard of them. You guys have to realize that
Old 8th July 2009
  #60
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syra's Avatar
I don't understand why this has to turn into a conversation about what is fair pricing on vintage units.

Nothing is fair today [email protected],[email protected], [email protected],[email protected], bla bla bla bla bla... old news.

Do you need them to create masterpieces? Do you need them to be successful? Will they make you a superstar? NO. NO and NO.

HECK YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING BUT PLUGINS TODAY!!!

This is about something TOTALLY different. For some of us it is about a "feeling". Call it big knobs and beaten up faceplates, history of a unit not anymore in production, countless clones trying to capture an essence of a true classic ... whatever. Some of us are fascinated by vintage units and are happy to pay more for that. How much more? It depends on the person. I wouldn't pay 30K for a 670 but I'll happily part with 10K for a U47. For someone else, it may be the other way around. Is it fair? Fair to who and what? If the buyer is willing to pay that than its a done deal.

And finally I have to say no. I repeat. No. We don't want just another compressor to compress. We don't care how much better this new product is against an overpriced old beat up unit. We want that "feeling" you can only get with a piece of history.
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