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Post-fader compression issues
Old 16th August 2005
  #1
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Post-fader compression issues

Now that I'm using a summing box for my digital mixes I find myself using outboard compressors and then going straight into the Nicerizer instead of back into PT. So the compressor is post fader, but even more importantly, post reverb send. I don't mind compressing after the fader, in fact in many ways it could make more sense, but I'm annoyed by the compressor slamming a sax track up and down, for instance, with the reverb levels staying the same. It seems to unglue the track from the mix. Is anyone else bothered by this? If so, any suggestions?

Thanks,
-R
Old 16th August 2005
  #2
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paterno's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Now that I'm using a summing box for my digital mixes I find myself using outboard compressors and then going straight into the Nicerizer instead of back into PT. So the compressor is post fader, but even more importantly, post reverb send. I don't mind compressing after the fader, in fact in many ways it could make more sense, but I'm annoyed by the compressor slamming a sax track up and down, for instance, with the reverb levels staying the same. It seems to unglue the track from the mix. Is anyone else bothered by this? If so, any suggestions?

Thanks,
-R
you could compress the sax reverb send in a similar way that you are compressing the mix [ie similar ratio, attack, and release settings]. This way it will duck the sax send as it is ducking the sax in the main mix.

other than that, you may have created your own argument for have a master prefader compressor over the entire mix...

JP
Old 16th August 2005
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Why don't you use your outboard comp as a hardware insert in PT..

Are you trying to avoid another AD conversion?
Old 16th August 2005
  #4
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lclyman
Why don't you use your outboard comp as a hardware insert in PT..

Are you trying to avoid another AD conversion?
No, I'm just trying to adapt to a new methodology and make things as straightforward as possible. Yes, this is the obvious solution, but if I do this with everything then I have fewer and fewer D/A channels to send tracks to the Nicerizer.

-R
Old 16th August 2005
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
you could compress the sax reverb send in a similar way that you are compressing the mix [ie similar ratio, attack, and release settings]. This way it will duck the sax send as it is ducking the sax in the main mix.

other than that, you may have created your own argument for have a master prefader compressor over the entire mix...

JP
It also just struck me that I could mult the compressor output of the sax and send one channel to the Nicerizer and the other back into Protools to use for a reverb/delay send.

I don't get what you mean by your last statement. I have an STC-8 set up between the Nicerizer output and the return into Protools, then an L1 on the Master fader of the return track to dither and boost the BTD level.

-R
Old 17th August 2005
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
I don't get what you mean by your last statement. I have an STC-8 set up between the Nicerizer output and the return into Protools, then an L1 on the Master fader of the return track to dither and boost the BTD level.

-R
My bad. By the way i read your post, i interpreted it as you not having any master compression. My thought was that by having it, you will minimizing the dynamic range of it a bit. that's all. I took too much of a leap in the assumption department...

Seems like you are onto a solution that will work.

Now a question for you -- do you run into strange fade out issues by having the L1 on the master fader intead of inserting it pre fader? Like the mix 'unglue-ing' a bit as the fade goes down...

Cheers,
john
Old 17th August 2005
  #7
Gear Nut
 

I've got a similar 2-bus routing (Dangerous 2-bus => STC-8/Massive Passive => back to PT).

I usually come back to PT on an AUX INPUT who's output goes to the Master Fader (where I monitor from).

Any processing is done on the AUX vs. Master Fader for 'level' stuff & fade-outs are done on the Master Fader.



(edit)

Also, if compressing a track with a hardware compressor, I insert just like a plugin.
The hardware sound usually makes up for the extra DA/AD conversion.

Didn't realize until after it was 'set up' that if you just stick a comp on one of the 8 stems (or 16 individual tracks being summed) you get that 'post fader' problem.

Yep, ya need lots of ins & outs.
Old 17th August 2005
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
Now a question for you -- do you run into strange fade out issues by having the L1 on the master fader intead of inserting it pre fader? Like the mix 'unglue-ing' a bit as the fade goes down...

Cheers,
john
I don't know, I can't hear it well enough to tell !!

Seriously, though, I only use the L1 to dither and clip off a few errant peaks, not to glue the mix together, so it's not really a factor. I've thought about that when I have the STC-8 as an insert on the master fader, but I rarely use so much compression that it's a problem, at least to me. In any case, it's easy to run the whole mix through an aux bus before the master fader and put your inserts there.

As far as I'm concerned, if the mix unglues at the end of the fade, hey, "surprise", no extra charge.

-R
Old 17th August 2005
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

I have had the same poblem and what I've done is send the vocal to another Aux compress and maybe EQ it and do my FX sends from there. That way I have a seperete copressor for the main vocal and another one for the FX send. A little more work but I'm kind of liking having more control.

The other problem with using the outboard compressor as an insert is the delay. I've been doing a lot of vocal with Aco Gtr and the phasing becomes a problem.
Old 17th August 2005
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioboy6
I have had the same poblem and what I've done is send the vocal to another Aux compress and maybe EQ it and do my FX sends from there. That way I have a seperete copressor for the main vocal and another one for the FX send. A little more work but I'm kind of liking having more control.

The other problem with using the outboard compressor as an insert is the delay. I've been doing a lot of vocal with Aco Gtr and the phasing becomes a problem.
no ADC?
Old 17th August 2005
  #11
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Does ADC in Pro Tools work on inserts? That would be cool!
Old 17th August 2005
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
Does ADC in Pro Tools work on inserts? That would be cool!

It works on software inserts, that's what it was designed for. That and the internal busses.

It also works on hardware inserts. PT's automatically compensates for it's converters. You can also set a manual delay setting for any outboard gear your using. You just gotta figure out what that delay is. It's easy though.

I've sent tracks out to a Neve eq before, and recorded them back in with no delay at all. Could be different with difference hardware though, and I haven't tried it using something as an insert.
Old 18th August 2005
  #13
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to answer the original question (i'm sure you don't want to hear this) i'm afraid you have to go back ITB with the inserts to be able to have compressors and sends as we're all used to working.

if this isn't acceptable, AWS 900 or tonelux with upcoming moving faders faders come to mind. i'm wrestling with the idea myself -- gonna run some tests and see...

if the converters are up to snuff, ITB with outboard going back in through inserts would be my best case scenario. if not, time to shell out some clams.
Old 18th August 2005
  #14
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u b k's Avatar
 

it must be time for my daily plug of this box: the niche audio control module solves the compressor-post-daw issues. 8 channels of transparent, passive, midi-controlled, zipper-free level automation. stick it after the comp, before the nice.

audiomidi.com sold the last off, but occasionally they pop up used. stick a wanted ad out and i'll bet someone will bite.

jim williams does a few mods to make them ultraclean, because, well, that's what he does to everything. big surprise: i like it a little gritty.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 18th August 2005
  #15
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
it must be time for my daily plug of this box: the niche audio control module solves the compressor-post-daw issues. 8 channels of transparent, passive, midi-controlled, zipper-free level automation. stick it after the comp, before the nice.

audiomidi.com sold the last off, but occasionally they pop up used. stick a wanted ad out and i'll bet someone will bite.

jim williams does a few mods to make them ultraclean, because, well, that's what he does to everything. big surprise: i like it a little gritty.


gregoire
del ubik
Maybe I don't understand what that is exactly. the problem is that my reverb send is happening way back in Protools, so any level change on the track after it leaves Protools, whether it be from a compressor or from an outboard fader, will not affect the level send to the reverb, so they don't track each other like we're used to hearing.

Actually, it would be nice to have some sort of 16 channel sends matrix before the Nicerizer. Just a series of 16 inputs, with direct outputs, and each channel having a few aux sends.

Just inching my way back toward having a console.

-R
Old 18th August 2005
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman

Just inching my way back toward having a console.

-R

I was thinking the same thing when i first read your post. heh
Old 18th August 2005
  #17
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Just inching my way back toward having a console.

-R

Yeah,Me too...
I'm gonna demo the Tonelux modular stuff when I have the time.
Old 18th August 2005
  #18
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djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Maybe I don't understand what that is exactly. the problem is that my reverb send is happening way back in Protools, so any level change on the track after it leaves Protools, whether it be from a compressor or from an outboard fader, will not affect the level send to the reverb, so they don't track each other like we're used to hearing.
-R
Send the track out, process it, record it back in to a new audio track and set up the sends on the new track. Set the old track to in-active.
Old 18th August 2005
  #19
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
the problem is that my reverb send is happening way back in Protools, so any level change on the track after it leaves Protools, whether it be from a compressor or from an outboard fader, will not affect the level send to the reverb, so they don't track each other like we're used to hearing.

ahh yes, true. so you'd have to duplicate any level changes made on the audio control module at the send as well. goose the acm by 1db on the post-comp sax channel, goose the send in pt by 1db as well.

wouldn't that work? how hard is it in pt to duplicate automation (not being rhetorical, i'm a logic guy)?

c'mon, fess up: you just want this to be a problem so you can get a slutty piece of gear to solve it .


gregoire
del ubik
Old 18th August 2005
  #20
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djui5
Send the track out, process it, record it back in to a new audio track and set up the sends on the new track. Set the old track to in-active.

that approach can be a total flow killer for me. one of the many sweet advantages of gear in the rack is the ability to reach over, adjust a knob or three as needed, and immediately resume moving faders. printing tracks like that eliminates the ability to tweak on the fly as often as needed, the instant it's needed.

it does solve the actual issue at hand, though, and requires making commitments, so i can see how it would work well for people.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 18th August 2005
  #21
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how do you guys deal with buss compression on summing boxes ?

Let´s say I stemmed out my drums to the first 8 channels of my Mixdream and want to send only the drums to my C-2...

how the ****....?
Old 18th August 2005
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
how do you guys deal with buss compression on summing boxes ?

Let´s say I stemmed out my drums to the first 8 channels of my Mixdream and want to send only the drums to my C-2...

how the ****....?

You can't.

These summing devices were supposed to be only that a summing device.

You start adding other things on it(busses,auxes,pan pots and the like) and not only does the function change but their pristine specs as well.

Also the cost would change bigtime.


Sounds like a bunch of people here are moving closer and closer to going back to using an analog console.

Come on guys...

leave the digital darkside ...

and move back to analog force.
Old 18th August 2005
  #23
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
how do you guys deal with buss compression on summing boxes ?

Let´s say I stemmed out my drums to the first 8 channels of my Mixdream and want to send only the drums to my C-2...

how the ****....?
Simple, send the output of the Mixdream to your C-2. Then send that output to your other Mixdream. I mean, if you want to sum multiple tracks down to 2 track twice then you need two summers. Or you can print the results of the drum sum and repatch, like the Mixdream literature recommends.

Alternately you might try mixing your drums to a stereo bus inside the computer, even using inserts for analog gear if necessary. Then send that bus to two different output pairs, compress one, don't compress the other, insert into four channels of Mixdream.

There are any number of workarounds to make the most out of an extremely limited analog mixer.

-R
Old 18th August 2005
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
There are any number of workarounds to make the most out of an extremely limited analog mixer.

-R
for my money, the only practical solutions are either an analog console with TR, or using outboard with PT and stemming out to a summer (or not). this gives you recall and speed.

anything else is just too painful IMHO.
Old 19th August 2005
  #25
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

jesus, now i have visions of getting an api 8200 feeding the 2500 for a drum and bass sub, joining with everything else in the nicerizer feeding a stc-8 or manley mu for the 2 buss.

i'll need 8 more converters too.

crap. where's that list...


gregoire
del ubik
Old 20th August 2005
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
jesus, now i have visions of getting an api 8200 feeding the 2500 for a drum and bass sub, joining with everything else in the nicerizer feeding a stc-8 or manley mu for the 2 buss.
This is also my thinking at the moment: Cause nothing profits more of analog summing than drums, sent into a nice drum compressor like C-2 etc....everything except drums can be stemmed to stereo outs through outboard to your summing box BUT NOT DRUMS....

I´ll ask SPL if they can modify my mixdream with a second group insert for the first eight (drum ) inputs- it definetly would make sense...in this case only I would need aditional MONO switches for 9-16....

.....or do I need that 8 channel NICERIZER........ .........****....ubik....let me know how it sounds on drums ?
Old 20th August 2005
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
.....or do I need that 8 channel NICERIZER........ .........****....ubik....let me know how it sounds on drums ?


Or a mini console?

But then I'll need automation?

Oh wait it should be moving faders right?

But moving faders isn't enough i need total recall like a DAW?

But 2 auxes isn't enough i need at least 12 auxes?

And more inputs 16-24 isn't enough?

I need 48-96?

And Eq and dynamics on each channel?


And of course it should cost under $10K.





You guys kill me sometimes.
Old 20th August 2005
  #28
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Or a mini console?

But then I'll need automation?

Oh wait it should be moving faders right?

But moving faders isn't enough i need total recall like a DAW?

But 2 auxes isn't enough i need at least 12 auxes?

And more inputs 16-24 isn't enough?

I need 48-96?

And Eq and dynamics on each channel?


And of course it should cost under $10K.





You guys kill me sometimes.
Sounds like you're killing yourself.

-R
Old 21st August 2005
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Or a mini console?

But then I'll need automation?

Oh wait it should be moving faders right?

But moving faders isn't enough i need total recall like a DAW?

But 2 auxes isn't enough i need at least 12 auxes?

And more inputs 16-24 isn't enough?

I need 48-96?

And Eq and dynamics on each channel?


And of course it should cost under $10K.





You guys kill me sometimes.
I definetly feel what you want to say thrill.
Wouldn´t we summing box lurkers all love to own a nice SSL/Neve/API like you...

On the other hand the $$ for this would kill the freedom / independence for artistic decisions for many of us and isn´t this one of the problems of this current music industry ?

So I rather stay free with a workaround solution than to sell my soul to the devil...

You seem to be happy from an 100 % satisfying ergonomical / sound wise standpoint. I hope for you your business justifies your purchases - mine at the moment doesn´t
Old 21st August 2005
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
You seem to be happy from an 100 % satisfying ergonomical / sound wise standpoint. I hope for you your business justifies your purchases - mine at the moment doesn´t
Mine either....
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