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Neve Designs Tape Emulation report.
Old 19th October 2005
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raal
i think one of the main reasons for 'not wanting a console' is the space a large console takes. .

I hear what your saying but a 32 channel console has 32 pres, 32 EQ`s, summing, busses, routing, monitoring, aux sends etc....

32 channels of outboard mic pres and EQ`s alone takes up a rather huge amount of rack space doesn`t it ?

I think a console that size is actually more economical in regards to space than ouboard. + It`s ten times easier to work with and looks cooler and more pro.
Old 20th October 2005
  #32
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rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by raal
if i could get the sound without these, at the same time saving myself the hassle of alignment, leader tape, demagging as mentioned before, cost of tape, space for the machine itself and tape storage, i'd do it in a minute.

the question is if the 5042 can actually give you that sound...
as a person who has just strapped it across the 2-buss and who is going to keep it there permanently, i can answer your question in the affirmative. it does just that. "that sound." i record to an alesis hd24xr, and use an analog console for mixing. now i have the gorgeousness that i used to associate with tape, and without any hassles associated with tape (which is no short list) or a bulky tape machine. i think the device is worth more than the asking price, because it gives all sort of sonic benefits without all the downside of a technology that soon will rightfully belong in the past.

regards,
rlnyc.
Old 20th October 2005
  #33
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I should be getting some hands on with one next week and will post my impressions and maybe even some audio filz.
Old 20th October 2005
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

Analog mixers and the sound of tape...

Not a bad point about having so much outboard gear to replace an analog mixer.

Having said that, I have a hard disc recorder, mixing through an analog mixer, and the analog mixer is NOT enough to approximate the sound of tape. Something is still missing: the sound of the tape! Again, parts for analog recorders and the availability of tape are an issue. Space is an issue as well in a small studio.

Although nothing will sound like tape but tape, what is the next best option if you are recording digitally??
Old 20th October 2005
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Again what I`m really hoping for is a new recorder that simply sounds good enough in the first place so theres no need to make it sound like something else. It does seem silly trying to make something sound like Tape instead of just using Tape.
if i wanted tape i could use tape, but i don't. all i want is what you want (good sounds that stay that way), and if it takes more than one device to do it i am happy. i got preamps and eq and compressors etc... why stop there?

i just know that either stuff sounds good, or it could use help. the digital device i use to record with makes me very happy. i get back what i put into it. i don't lose highs or lows or suffer dropout or print through or anything. at the same time i recognise that it could sound better, because like anything based in reality, there is resistance to what we imagine. that's one reason to put a 2-buss compressor on at the end - not JUST to manage dynamics. so if when i put the mix through the 5042 it sounds wonderful and fantastic and i like everything about it and feel warm all over, then i will do that and i don't think too much that i am cheating and using some kind of fake tape device. i don't think about it at all. i would have tried it from rupert's new company if it had been called the "sonic improver box."


in fact, i wish they had done that - they should have just said it was a "magnetic sound groovy improver". i would have sent for one anyway. as soon as they called it an "emulator" (meaning that it is supposed to imitate something else)they could have known that they were in for the sh*t from everybody with an opinion, which is everybody. interestingly, it is an analog device pure and simple - there is no "virtual modeling" going on in it. but it is called what it is called, so...

let the debate continue...

best,
rlnyc.
Old 20th October 2005
  #36
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
I hear what your saying but a 32 channel console has 32 pres, 32 EQ`s, summing, busses, routing, monitoring, aux sends etc....

32 channels of outboard mic pres and EQ`s alone takes up a rather huge amount of rack space doesn`t it ?

I think a console that size is actually more economical in regards to space than ouboard. + It`s ten times easier to work with and looks cooler and more pro.
don't get me wrong, i'm actually shopping for a console - and if i get one i'll more than likely keep all my outboard. i'm just too used to PT so i'm hoping for an analog console with instant recall. the oram console is the first official contender, but i know of at least one other company that's working on one. heh ... and all this OT so sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
as a person who has just strapped it across the 2-buss and who is going to keep it there permanently, i can answer your question in the affirmative. it does just that. "that sound."
guess i'ts time to stop asking questions and start seeing how i can get a 5042 to mexico. thanks for your answers rlnyc!
Old 20th October 2005
  #37
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The Reel Thing's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
I agree with what you said about Tape as well but I think I`ve been stuck in digital land for too long now to go back.
who says it's a step back?

You can move forward and buy a tape recorder - the most progressive thing you can do these days. In 10 or 15 years, possibly earlier, everybody will want to record on tape again, it will be the fashion of the day.

'No, that's not true!' I hear thousands of readers speak out loud - just like back then, when the days of valves were finally over...

The guys who kept their Fairchilds and Sta-Levels and LA-2As are laughing now - just like you will be laughing then, everytime you start up your Ampex ATR...
Old 20th October 2005
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
if i wanted tape i could use tape, but i don't. all i want is what you want (good sounds that stay that way), and if it takes more than one device to do it i am happy. i got preamps and eq and compressors etc... why stop there?

i just know that either stuff sounds good, or it could use help. the digital device i use to record with makes me very happy. i get back what i put into it. i don't lose highs or lows or suffer dropout or print through or anything. at the same time i recognise that it could sound better, because like anything based in reality, there is resistance to what we imagine. that's one reason to put a 2-buss compressor on at the end - not JUST to manage dynamics. so if when i put the mix through the 5042 it sounds wonderful and fantastic and i like everything about it and feel warm all over, then i will do that and i don't think too much that i am cheating and using some kind of fake tape device. i don't think about it at all. i would have tried it from rupert's new company if it had been called the "sonic improver box."


in fact, i wish they had done that - they should have just said it was a "magnetic sound groovy improver". i would have sent for one anyway. as soon as they called it an "emulator" (meaning that it is supposed to imitate something else)they could have known that they were in for the sh*t from everybody with an opinion, which is everybody. interestingly, it is an analog device pure and simple - there is no "virtual modeling" going on in it. but it is called what it is called, so...

let the debate continue...

best,
rlnyc.
Exactly what I said in another post about this same thing. You can call it a "Tape Emulator" or a "Make it Sound Good" or "This Box With Dials and Buttons."

I don't give a rats ass if it sounds like a real tape machine, does it sound good? If so then I will use it, if not then I will pass it by. People get too hung up on marketing terms, who cares what the marketing types want to sell it as, if it makes my end product sound better I am a happy camper.

If you have not heard it then you don't know if it will make your end product sound better do you? If so then you are judging it by the marketing name, what is that worth? Is a Great River MP-2NV a "Neve" is a Chandler TG2 really an "EMI?" Hardly but these are very respected companies because no matter what the marketing department comes up with in the end they make the end product sound better.

Get over the fact that the 5042 is a "Tape Emulator" and focus on how it sounds, does it sound good, then use it, does it sound bad then skip it, have you not heard it? Then hold your judgment untill ya do. Too many people make reviews on things they have never heard.
Old 20th October 2005
  #39
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electric's Avatar
 

anyone try really slamming drums through this new neve tape unit as an effect? i am curious if you can make some cool new drum effx with it both tracking or in the mix. anyone compare it to the distortion feature on the distressor?

also how much $$$$ is it? does neve only take orders direct?

electric
Old 20th October 2005
  #40
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rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
anyone try really slamming drums through this new neve tape unit as an effect? i am curious if you can make some cool new drum effx with it both tracking or in the mix. anyone compare it to the distortion feature on the distressor?

also how much $$$$ is it? does neve only take orders direct?

electric

it is not a compressor even if it imparts some of the same characteristics or "glue" and "roundness". turning the "saturation" knob all the way up makes stuff going through it sound like way overloaded tape. not fuzz box good. not overcompressed good. just like burnt tape, like when an engineer doesn't know WTF he is doing and misaligns the machine. i think it blows like that but ymmv.

cost is $1440 and direct orders only.

regards,
rlnyc
Old 20th October 2005
  #41
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ps... i am not a salesman. they have my money too. no discount for the good reports i give them.

best,
rlnyc
Old 20th October 2005
  #42
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
I hear what your saying but a 32 channel console has 32 pres, 32 EQ`s, summing, busses, routing, monitoring, aux sends etc....

32 channels of outboard mic pres and EQ`s alone takes up a rather huge amount of rack space doesn`t it ?

I think a console that size is actually more economical in regards to space than ouboard. + It`s ten times easier to work with and looks cooler and more pro.
That's exactly the conclusion I came to. I started small with a couple mic pre's and a line mixer. Added some more pre's, a remote center section, and some compressors. When I started looking at some of the summing solutions I stopped myself and just went for a console. At some point it just makes more sense.
Old 20th October 2005
  #43
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
Berringer will come out with a copy but with an actual tape loop in it with a window you can peer through and say " Now that's an emulation"

Seriously, I think if manufacturers got away from the old "emulation here" trick, we could all get on with getting great sounds instead of bickering back and forth about this and that. I get dizzy reading this ****.
Old 20th October 2005
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Then hold your judgment untill ya do. Too many people make reviews on things they have never heard.
NSN in all fairness we`re just talking about the idea of modeling tape in the first place as opposed to buying a real tape machine. Tape emulators in general as opposed to knocking the Portico.

Just exchanging ideas. No need to get heated up and start telling people what they can or can`t say when nobody said anything like that in the first place. (at least since yesterday. I haven`t re-read the whole thing)


In fact I`m playing devils advocate with myself because I owned a FATSO and loved it and I`ll probably end up buying another one or giving the Portico a shot.

I hear what you and rlnyc and others are saying and since I`m in digital land myself I agree with many of your very valid points.

But part of me hears what Reel Thing is saying and thinks it`d be cooler to just get a nice tape machine and a nice console.

Maybe I`ll get BOTH and get into the real nitty gritty of what`s better on this and what`s better on that.

Who gives a **** ???
Old 20th October 2005
  #45
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kevinc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix
When I started looking at some of the summing solutions I stopped myself and just went for a console. At some point it just makes more sense.
I wish I had done the same thing.

I went for an Xtramix and while the sound of that thing is amazing I really wish I`d saved up and bought a decent console.

I started on one and it just makes more sense to me.
Old 20th October 2005
  #46
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
turning the "saturation" knob all the way up makes stuff going through it sound like way overloaded tape. not fuzz box good. not overcompressed good. just like burnt tape, like when an engineer doesn't know WTF he is doing and misaligns the machine. i think it blows like that but ymmv.

rlnyc, do you by any chance have an opinion as to which kind of tape it saturates like? i ask because i love pushing 456 really hard for tracking, whereas gp9 just sounds stiff when i hit it like that. 456 is one of the best compressors out there, bar none.


curious,

gregoire
del ubik
Old 20th October 2005
  #47
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
rlnyc, do you by any chance have an opinion as to which kind of tape it saturates like? i ask because i love pushing 456 really hard for tracking, whereas gp9 just sounds stiff when i hit it like that. 456 is one of the best compressors out there, bar none.


curious,

gregoire
del ubik
i can't think like that. the 5042 sounds like a tape MACHINE. not like "tape". it's a magnetic relay. i don't know all the tricks about how they get it to respond, but they are very pleasant to talk to and they try to be helpful. if it really is your pressing question, why not give them a call or e-mail them and ask them? they would know better than i.

btw, i HATE gp9. love 456. so i guess that if the 5042 sounded like gp9 i would think it blew chunks. since i love it, i imagine it sounds enough like 456 for me. maybe it sounds like quarter inch Scotch.

best,
rlnyc
Old 21st October 2005
  #48
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
... but he likes digital because it gives him back what he puts in.

Well, yes.
Minus the parts it loses.
Old 21st October 2005
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
NSN in all fairness we`re just talking about the idea of modeling tape in the first place as opposed to buying a real tape machine. Tape emulators in general as opposed to knocking the Portico.

Just exchanging ideas. No need to get heated up and start telling people what they can or can`t say when nobody said anything like that in the first place. (at least since yesterday. I haven`t re-read the whole thing)


In fact I`m playing devils advocate with myself because I owned a FATSO and loved it and I`ll probably end up buying another one or giving the Portico a shot.

I hear what you and rlnyc and others are saying and since I`m in digital land myself I agree with many of your very valid points.

But part of me hears what Reel Thing is saying and thinks it`d be cooler to just get a nice tape machine and a nice console.

Maybe I`ll get BOTH and get into the real nitty gritty of what`s better on this and what`s better on that.

Who gives a **** ???
Hey Kevin,

No not pissed off or anything. That is exactly what I was just pointing out, the people here who are knocking the idea of "Tape Emulation" are doing so without hearing this unit. They are already biased about the idea of a tape emulation system so they are not going to buy one and they are always going to complain about the very concept.

It does suck that every thread about "Tape Emulation" has to quickly deteriorate into a digital vs. analog pissing match.

Everyone says "get a tape machine" but to echo what rlnyc said above "I don't WANT a f*&king TAPE DECK." I have an M79 dead in the water right now and if I wanted to deal with all the crap that goes with an ATR I would get it running. I don't want to deal with the crap that comes with that I just want to make better sounding recordings and if "Tape Emulation" can help then I will use what ever tool I have handy.

I will stand behind my statement that if you have not heard something you should not speak about how it sounds, that seems like common sense to me.

heh
Old 21st October 2005
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
Well, yes.
Minus the parts it loses.
Yeah that's right, Michael Wagener doesn't know what he is talking about and his recordings sound like a$$ because he is using digital not tape........




Old 21st October 2005
  #51
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
Well, yes.
Minus the parts it loses.

maybe you mean "skewers"? how does it lose anything? what parts does it lose?

it seems rather that tape loses stuff tremendously, like top end on every pass. you know tony v? that's why he thinks that all his old productions sound the way they do, from eqing back what the tape kept losing.

regards,
rlnyc.
Old 21st October 2005
  #52
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by raal
respectfully, that's like saying hiss is also a way to get tape sound.

noise, wow, flutter, are the down sides - if i could get the sound without these, at the same time saving myself the hassle of alignment, leader tape, demagging as mentioned before, cost of tape, space for the machine itself and tape storage, i'd do it in a minute.

the question is if the 5042 can actually give you that sound... not if i'd take the option, even if it were more expensive than an ATR.
Why "emulate" at tape machine when you can run a real tape recorder??

I'm surprised by this and your previous postings that decry the mundane tasks of biasing and setting up your machine, threading tape, demagnitizing and cleaning the tape path. That's called "engineering."

On a properly set up tape recorder there is virtually no noise. Certainly that should be true on a 2 or 4 track used for mastering.

Tape is available at a moments notice now and, although price is a consideration, we are in this business to make the best sound possible. Sometimes certain program material calls for tape.

I think Neve's new company is great and I'm a customer and user of the 5012 mic amp.

Damning tape in general and looking to a box for salvation just doesn't fly.

It's called being an engineer.
Old 21st October 2005
  #53
Gear Guru
Here's the bottom line. If you're working digital, you can make an album for what the tape budget would be on 2". Plus, when the band is ready to play, you're ready to hit record. "Take 7-Go". No changing reels, no deciding which take to go over.

Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Analog and digital both have their advantages and drawbacks. (That black stuff on your Q-Tip is your 12k). So if there's a box that can bring some of the nice stuff from tape into the digital world, thats what it is and lets judge it on those terms.
Old 21st October 2005
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
Why "emulate" at tape machine when you can run a real tape recorder??

I'm surprised by this and your previous postings that decry the mundane tasks of biasing and setting up your machine, threading tape, demagnitizing and cleaning the tape path. That's called "engineering."

On a properly set up tape recorder there is virtually no noise. Certainly that should be true on a 2 or 4 track used for mastering.

Tape is available at a moments notice now and, although price is a consideration, we are in this business to make the best sound possible. Sometimes certain program material calls for tape.

I think Neve's new company is great and I'm a customer and user of the 5012 mic amp.

Damning tape in general and looking to a box for salvation just doesn't fly.

It's called being an engineer.
So you are not an engineer if you don't have the time, money or patience to deal with tape then?

heh

It's called making money by producing the best sounding recordings you can with the least overhead.
Old 21st October 2005
  #55
Quote:
Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Analog and digital both have their advantages and drawbacks. (That black stuff on your Q-Tip is your 12k). So if there's a box that can bring some of the nice stuff from tape into the digital world, thats what it is and lets judge it on those terms.
WOW what a great post! Very nice.
Old 21st October 2005
  #56
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb
Here's the bottom line. If you're working digital, you can make an album for what the tape budget would be on 2". Plus, when the band is ready to play, you're ready to hit record. "Take 7-Go". No changing reels, no deciding which take to go over.

Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Analog and digital both have their advantages and drawbacks. (That black stuff on your Q-Tip is your 12k). So if there's a box that can bring some of the nice stuff from tape into the digital world, thats what it is and lets judge it on those terms.

Nonsense!
Let me tell you what time it is!

You're one low down cheap mutha if you can get a record made for the price of the 2" tape! What a joke! Get Pro!
In fact, if that's the direction you wish to take this discussion, include me out!

On a properly set up tape machine there is nothing on the Q-tip, buster!
My former posting, and this one, have nothing to do with an analog and digital debate. They have to do with HOW one gets the sound.

That's what time it is! Please learn to align your tape machine so that you have response + and - 1.5dB from 15Hz to 32kHz. That's what time it is.

Sick of the amateurs am I.
Old 21st October 2005
  #57
Quote:
Nonsense!
Let me tell you what time it is!

You're one low down cheap mutha if you can get a record made for the price of the 2" tape! What a joke! Get Pro!
In fact, if that's the direction you wish to take this discussion, include me out!

On a properly set up tape machine there is nothing on the Q-tip, buster!
My former posting, and this one, have nothing to do with an analog and digital debate. They have to do with HOW one gets the sound.

That's what time it is! Please learn to align your tape machine so that you have response + and - 1.5dB from 15Hz to 32kHz. That's what time it is.

Sick of the amateurs am I.

Pro here thanks.... at least I was for many years before I took some time off to get some things in order.

You are making the EXACT point actually. It is not a matter of learning how to align the tape machine, it is the time it takes to align it.

Add that on top of the tape cost and the repair cost when the machine goes down (moving parts wear out) and the rewind speed and the "what are we going to record over to do this take" dance and the fact that no matter how often the machine is aligned it does lose something with repeated passes and the fact that the machine does not fit in many smaller studios and the fact that what you put in is not exactly what you get back out and the fact that …….

There are plenty of reasons not to use a tape machine but it is nice to be able to get some of the positive effects of tape without these issues.
Old 21st October 2005
  #58
Rep
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Rep's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush

On a properly set up tape recorder there is virtually no noise. Certainly that should be true on a 2 or 4 track used for mastering.

Tape is available at a moments notice now and, although price is a consideration, we are in this business to make the best sound possible. Sometimes certain program material calls for tape.

[/I]
I was looking into that before, but only came up with sub-par units .

what 2 track recorders do you suggest to look into,?
that are "PRO" enough for a good sound , and could be "mastering" quality ?
Old 21st October 2005
  #59
Gear Guru
OK- an album for the tape budget is a bit of hyperbole. But 2" is $170 for 15 minutes of recording medium at 30ips. If you make an album on 2", you're gonna have to spend thousands of dollars on tape as opposed to a $300 hard drive and the same again for back up. Throw in that for the price of a 2" deck, you can get a serious rack of outboard gear. Thats what time it is for a lot of us.
Old 21st October 2005
  #60
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep
I was looking into that before, but only came up with sub-par units .

what 2 track recorders do you suggest to look into,?
that are "PRO" enough for a good sound , and could be "mastering" quality ?
Any good Studer A80, A810, A807 set up for 510nWb/M and CCIR EQ will do.
Also look at Nagra T-Audio. Run a good hi-output tape such as EMTEC 900 or Qunategy GP9. Call it a day.

These are available cheap now and maintenance and parts for A807 and Nagra is always available. I mention these machines because, carefully set up, results
are basically equivelent to cult Ampex machines.

While it is true that many newer engineers never grew up using tape recorders or learning what is required to make them sound good, it is a very valuable pursuit.

I have the impression that many have never heard the best analog. Since right now, the best machines ever made are available cheap (approx. 1/20th their new cost,) it IS the time to move and get your golden era sound happening.

This dream pursuit is NOT for the lazy or trifling GTR CNTR. box buyer. Instead, it is for those who wish to develop their ear. It's called engineering.
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