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Lucas CS-1, let's talk Condenser Microphones
Old 28th August 2009
  #181
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
Here's a clip of the CS1 next to a U87Ai on my acoustic guitar. Please keep any comments about the playing to your damn selves. Thanks!

Taylor Big Baby guitar, mics 15" from the 12th fret, into DAV BG8 pres and Mytek 8x192 AD.

To me it's like taking off your sunglasses and suddenly seeing the colors you've become accustomed to missing.
Thanks for the clips!
I think they show once again that a CK12´s frequency response suits acoustic guitars very well whereas a u87´s (or u67´s) are not so well suited if you are aiming for a full range clear/detailed sound.

It should be noted however that imho we are not hearing less detail here but just the result of the frequency curves of the mics. Some small eq tweaks make the u87 recording just as detailed sounding (I know because I tried - basically the same moves that make a U87 sound more like a CK12, upping bass, scooping mids, upping highs). Yes, I know using eq is a controversial topic, but anyways, I am someone who differentiates between f-curves and things like tone, detail, depth etc...ymmv! If anyone is interested in listening let me know, I can upload the file.

Rock on!
Pat

ps - I really like that you recorded the same take with both mics. Makes comparisons very accurate!
Old 28th August 2009
  #182
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DigitMus's Avatar
 

Here's a 44.1K/16bit mono aiff of the CS-1:

Index of /Lucas

The mic was about 9ft. up, and 15-20 feet from the instruments during a live jam. It was in cardioid pointed a little more toward the bass & drums than the guitar & keys.

Preamp was the one in my Elite, recorded to Radar V (no Comp. EQ, etc.)


Scott
Old 28th August 2009
  #183
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Space Station's Avatar
Thanks again...the CS-1 always sounds much more sensitive and detailed.
Old 30th August 2009
  #184
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Once more with nothing better to record, here are a few clips of my creaky, out of tune upright. The piano, room and player are anything but ideal, but the sense of realism captured here is, uh, unreal. You're on the bench.

Lucii -> DAV BG8 -> Mytek 8x192
Attached Files

CS1 Piano Octaves.wav (2.27 MB, 172 views)

CS1 Piano1.wav (3.17 MB, 193 views)

CS1 Piano 2.wav (5.72 MB, 153 views)

Old 30th August 2009
  #185
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I tried to do a side by side comparison with a single CS1 in cardioid against a KM184 on the piano, but I gave up on trying to capture the whole piano image with a single cardioid positioning... Any further than three feet away and the horrid sound of my living room takes over the entire picture. I can post clips if anyone's interested, but when both sources sound like absolute garbage it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.
Old 30th August 2009
  #186
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
Here's a clip of the CS1 next to a U87Ai on my acoustic guitar. Please keep any comments about the playing to your damn selves. Thanks!

Taylor Big Baby guitar, mics 15" from the 12th fret, into DAV BG8 pres and Mytek 8x192 AD.

To me it's like taking off your sunglasses and suddenly seeing the colors you've become accustomed to missing.
For those interested I have attached the u87 clip with EQ to check if the better clarity/realism in the CS1 clip is an unobtainable quality from the Neumann or just mostly coming from the CK12 clone capsule´s f-response on the recorded source. I found it pretty interesting, you be the judge.

Rock!
Pat
Attached Files

u87eq.wav (1.71 MB, 150 views)

Old 30th August 2009
  #187
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3rd&4thT's Avatar
 

I found the U87 eq'd clip to be flatter and more monochromatic. The warmth register in the Lucas has considerably more gleam to it. And the transients are duller with the 87, even eq'd. The result is for me that the Lucas has considerably more 3-D effect than the eq'd 87.

So far, attempts to eq an 87 to sound like a Lucas have fallen short. Keep at it.

Or, alternatively, put it away and stop waving it around in everybody's face. Since you will never own a Lucas, making controllable side-by-side comparisons impossible, your dead horse is beaten, beaten, and beaten again.

My condolences to the horse. Now, give us all a break.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Old 30th August 2009
  #188
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Space Station's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
For those interested I have attached the u87 clip with EQ to check if the better clarity/realism in the CS1 clip is an unobtainable quality from the Neumann or just mostly coming from the CK12 clone capsule´s f-response on the recorded source. I found it pretty interesting, you be the judge.

Rock!
Pat
Here we go again. 'ck12-clone'?

Quite derogatory in my book.
Old 30th August 2009
  #189
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT View Post
My condolences to the horse. Now, give us all a break.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Give you all a break? You better stop your patronizing BS my friend! You do not dictate who must or must not present clips so people can judge on their own.
Old 30th August 2009
  #190
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Here we go again. 'ck12-clone'?

Quite derogatory in my book.
The MBHO capsule used in the CS1 was a pretty successful attempt to clone the original brassring CK12 capsule and is regarded as the best CK12 clone in existance by many. It is also used by David Bock in his recreations of the vintage mics that used an original CK12 afaik.

So, what was your objection again?

Best,
Pat
Old 30th August 2009
  #191
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Space Station's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post

So, what was your objection again?

Best,
Pat
Where have you seen David Bock, Terry Manning or Oliver Archut say the capule used in the CS-1 is a CK12 Clone?
Old 30th August 2009
  #192
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3rd&4thT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
Give you all a break? You better stop your patronizing BS my friend! You do not dictate who must or must not present clips so people can judge on their own.
You really don't know when to get off the stage, do you?

If I offended you, then I'm truly, sincerely happy. You are so much less impressive than you think.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Old 30th August 2009
  #193
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Relax, people. WildCowboys' experiments don't change what the microphone is or isn't. At best, it's an opportunity to consider what you're really getting from a high end microphone, and at worst it dilutes the discussion with subject matter that's better suited for a thread about mic modeling. Does that really warrant all the personal attacks?

In any case, I found it interesting to listen to. I'm still a happy Lucas customer!
Old 30th August 2009
  #194
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT View Post
You really don't know when to get off the stage, do you?

If I offended you, then I'm truly, sincerely happy. You are so much less impressive than you think.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT

Old 31st August 2009
  #195
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
Relax, people. WildCowboys' experiments don't change what the microphone is or isn't. At best, it's an opportunity to consider what you're really getting from a high end microphone, and at worst it dilutes the discussion with subject matter that's better suited for a thread about mic modeling. Does that really warrant all the personal attacks?

In any case, I found it interesting to listen to. I'm still a happy Lucas customer!
Exactly. My eqed files do not change anything, they just give another perspective to build an opinion. It is pretty sad tha GS has become a place where simply giving another perspective without even making a judgement is enough for some to jump on your back and start fighting.
Sounds familiar RoundBadge heh? Still pissed that I dared to say a mic with a CK12 clone capsule sounds similar to a C12? So be it
Old 31st August 2009
  #196
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT View Post
You really don't know when to get off the stage, do you?

If I offended you, then I'm truly, sincerely happy. You are so much less impressive than you think.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
I do not get offended by people I cannot respect, sorry pal.
And here you go again thinking you are in a position to tell others when to stop posting...I feel sorry for you, you really should get your own forums
Old 31st August 2009
  #197
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mdjice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
Here's a clip of the CS1 next to a U87Ai on my acoustic guitar. Please keep any comments about the playing to your damn selves. Thanks!

Taylor Big Baby guitar, mics 15" from the 12th fret, into DAV BG8 pres and Mytek 8x192 AD.

To me it's like taking off your sunglasses and suddenly seeing the colors you've become accustomed to missing.
The CS1 sounds very bright here. I love bright mics but they are definitely not as versatile as more neutral mics. I would be curious to try one against my c800G one day.
Old 31st August 2009
  #198
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
Sounds failiar RoundBadge heh? Still pissed that I dared to say a mic with a CK12 clone capsule sounds similar to a C12? So be it

Pissed?

actually I think you're hilarious.
Rock on!

Last edited by RoundBadge; 31st August 2009 at 08:01 AM..
Old 31st August 2009
  #199
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Pissed?

actually I think you're hilarious.
Rock on!
heh = pissed ???

RoundBadge vs. logic 0:1
Old 31st August 2009
  #200
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3rd&4thT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
I do not get offended by people I cannot respect, sorry pal.
And here you go again thinking you are in a position to tell others when to stop posting...I feel sorry for you, you really should get your own forums
Actually, your experiments have backfired. By eq'ing an 87 into something it can't do, you have made it sound slow, coarse, harsh, 2D and unmusical. The CS-1 sounds absolutely magical by comparison.

I'm not telling you not to post, but if you continue, I will tell you that you're making a fool of yourself. When I suggest leaving the stage, what that means is, "When you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging."

We can start by reminding you that Terry, Oliver, David and Jeff have all brought products to market that are recognized for their excellence.

Ten minutes on the Lucas website should make it clear to you that they are not interested in making a clone. Your repeated dismissal of the CS-1 as a clone indicates you are a) malicious, b) illiterate, or c) both.

If you think that patronizing and condescending to these illustrious gentlemen brings the slightest glory to you, you have failed abysmally.

For that reason alone, you should give it a rest. You don't understand mic design, your eq experiments have come up with a truly ugly sound, and your attitude is repellent.

If you think you can assert your own superiority by trashing others with proven track records in developing superlative products, you're delusional, you're wasting your time.

Don't squawk when others call you out on this, your charm and intellect have both been tried and found insufficient. Only your ego is robust, and it's betraying you.

Post away, but don't ever expect to be congratulated for it.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Old 31st August 2009
  #201
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Mazo Audio's Avatar
 

word
Old 31st August 2009
  #202
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
It is so ridiculous my friend, you are constructing a herd of elephants out of a effin´fly. I posted an eqed file of the cs1 recording to give people a perspective of the remaining difference after the f-balance has been adjusted a little and said "go listen and judge yourself!"

All the stuff you pretend I am up to (discrediting the CS1) is a product of your mind in combination with your absolute hate for opinions that differ from your own. I actually wrote the CS1 seems to be a great mic. But hey, fantasize on so you have somebody to hate, some people need that!

Rock on!
"The CS-1 sounds absolutely magical by comparison." haha, you beat me to it:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...-new-post.html

Only that you are being serious. Magikal greetings!
Old 31st August 2009
  #203
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Where have you seen David Bock, Terry Manning or Oliver Archut say the capule used in the CS-1 is a CK12 Clone?
Back on topic,
the capsule used is as far as I am informed "the" MBHO capsule that is a specially tuned version (to David Bock´s wishes) only available to very few selected manufacturers - Mr. Bock has a say who can buy it (or not) afaik. It is the capsule that he uses and used in his ELUX and Bock 251 and 151 mics which are his take on the ELAM251 sound (which uses tadaaa....a CK12 capsule). David Bock calls it his "CK12 type capsule" on his website. In addition, JJ Blair (he is not doing me a favour, he deeply dislikes me) called it the most accurate CK12 copy to date, people like Andreas Grosser share this opinion. The capsule shares the typical characteristics of original CK12 capsules like boosted highs, slightly mellowed mids and a boosted ,full sounding bass.

Based on these pieces of information (unless I was given wrong information) I guess it is pretty ok to call this capsule a CK12 clone, and no, it is no reason to bring on a ton of accusations against someone who does so.

And yes, the product description of the lucas CS1 states about 20 times that the mic (!) is not a clone but a "best of" of the classsic mics and some innovation. That does not change the fact that the capsule (and grill) determines the character of any mic more than anything else (if no filters are used as in the CS1) hence my conclusion that the sound of the CS1 is in the family of CK12 equipped microphones - and the clips we can hear prove that imho. To me and a bunch of others it sounds like a variation of the C12 sound, period.

And again, I wrote multiple times that the CS1 seems to be a great sounding mic. Any silly efforts to portrait me as someone with an agenda against the product or the manufacturer is simply way off. All this "you´re either with us or against us!" sh*t is pretty immature (not directed at you Spacey).

Best,
Pat
Old 1st September 2009
  #204
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jjblair's Avatar
 

I was informed that my name was mentioned. Dropping by to respond.

1) Correct: I do dislike you, though not "deeply."

2) Correct: The capsule is a CK12 clone, made by Haun, used only in Bock mics and the CS1.

3) Incorrect: Capsule and grill only partially determine the sound, in the absence of filters. The circuit design, tube and transformer make up a huge portion of the sound. In the CS1, the transformer is a unique design, and it is a huge part of the sound. It in no way resembles the T14/1, which is one reason that it sounds very different than the C12, particularly below 1kHz on down.

Secondly, the tube sounds different than a 6072.

Lastly, the circuit is very different. The C12 take the current off the capsule, through a 1,000pF coupling cap to the grid, with a force biased cathode. IIRC, there's a feedback loop off the plate. Might be wrong about that, though. The CS1 comes off the capsule, no coupling cap, to grid, with a self biasing cathode. The CS1 circuit actually resembles the U47 more than the C12, actually, with the self biasing cathode like the 251 being the only difference.

The C12 we tested it against had a more forward top end. Much brighter. And the difference in low end was like the difference between a SM57 and a M88. The mics could not have sounded more dissimilar.
Old 1st September 2009
  #205
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3rd&4thT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
your absolute hate for opinions that differ from your own.
No, I don't own the mic, and have no opinion about it. I can only go by the clips. I just hate to see the poor things tortured. It's not your opinion I dislike.

I accept your apology.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Old 1st September 2009
  #206
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Thanks for the clarifications JJ!

So basically that confirms that I can call the capsule a CK12 clone without being accused of trying to discredit anyone, thanks! Please keep in mind I do not say the MIC is a clone, I only said the capsule is one and in my opinion the sound is a variety of the C12 sound as well.

The part where I differ with JJ is the impact of electronics on the sound as long as no audible filtering is used, for two reasons:

1) My experience is that different electronics on the same capsule color the sound from a little to barely audible at best. I have heard CK12s with C12 electronics, C12VR electronics, and C451 body, on a C28 and a C60 body. The ALL carried the signature sound characteristics of the CK12, not one was able to turn it around so anyone could believe they were probably listening to a non CK12 mic. Same goes for M7 capsules, I have heard them in UM57, U47 (and clones) U47fet, CMV...theiy all remain true to the M7 sound when an M7 is used. And no way anyone would have ever mistaken them for a CK12. Years later this experience was basically confirmed in long talks with Andreas Grosser, he told me that in his experience the sound is formed mostly by the capsule, a little by the grill and with a pretty big distance in third place (if no cheap/funky stuff or filtering is going on) the electronics. And not not offend anyone, I am taking Andreas´word above anyone else´s any day of the week. After all he is the one who gets the phonecalls from the world´s gurus when they are in need of advice concerning microphone electronics.

2) The sound of the clips. I know what CK12 and M7 (and more) equipped mics sound next to an U87 because I have done years of testing mics next to those. I know pretty well by now in which frequency areas they differ in what manner. And no matter how you twist and turn it, in those clips of the CS1 next to a U87 and U67, the differences that can be heard are in the same spots as any other CK12 equipped mic you put next to the Neumanns. When I put up a CK12 on a C451 or a CK12 (vintage) in my C12VR next to a U87, the differences are totally in the same ballpark as in the CS1 vs U87 clips.

IMHO I can hear the CK12 capsule more than anything else in the CS1 clips and that this puts it in the "C12 family" of mics. Sorry if that is enough to offend anyone, I think there are worse things to say about a mic.

Thanks JJ for making this a discussion again, it was kind of going in the wrong direction with all the personal attacks and accusations.

Rock on!
Pat

ps - and luckily for many here I do not want to continue this discussion anymore. I posted my opinion, live with it guys.
Old 1st September 2009
  #207
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GYang's Avatar
For the end user the best thing in new or 'new' design of mic is chance to get good ol' sound at 1/5th to 1/3 of price he would normally pay for 'real thing'.
I tried several Soundelux mics in the past and didn't like them to extent not to go further in search of right mics for my locker.
Hopefully, Lucas and Bock mics brought something great to table at nice price point.
Old 1st September 2009
  #208
Gear Head
 

I dont want to add to the confusion, since a lot of people mentioned the 251 soundelux, here is a little clip from .I replaced the tube with an GE nos tube, recorded through a Philips LDC pre amp into a studer a800 MKIII
Attached Files

soundelux 251 drums.wav (3.10 MB, 168 views)

Old 21st September 2009
  #209
Gear Nut
 

By the way, for those who are in Europe and missed the cs-1 there are the Microphones by Dieter Schöpf DS-Audioservice.
The Website seems to be not ready yet, but the mc251 Tube Microphone we own is equipped with the Haun CK12 like capsule and an ef12 tube circuit and sounds simply wonderful. We love it. It is priced reasonably and Dieter is a nice guy to deal with.
If you have a chance to try one, do not miss it.
It shows all the attributes people are hearing in the Lucas to my ears and is in the same price range.
Tobias
Old 21st September 2009
  #210
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hop.sing View Post
By the way, for those who are in Europe and missed the cs-1 there are the Microphones by Dieter Schöpf DS-Audioservice.
The Website seems to be not ready yet, but the mc251 Tube Microphone we own is equipped with the Haun CK12 like capsule and an ef12 tube circuit and sounds simply wonderful. We love it. It is priced reasonably and Dieter is a nice guy to deal with.
If you have a chance to try one, do not miss it.
It shows all the attributes people are hearing in the Lucas to my ears and is in the same price range.
Tobias
Looks interesting.
pricing info?
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