The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Lucas CS-1, let's talk
Old 30th June 2009
  #151
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Sure, but this isn't a mix it's a "shoot-out". I mean why stop at high frequencies? Why not roll in a little 200hz on the CS-1, maybe it will sound better than the u67 if you do that I mean why stop there, might as well add some compression - cause you know, we do it in the mix anyhow...
Yes I agree it can be endless if the goal is to make one sound "better", simply because it is a matter of taste. However this is why I tried to match them as good as I could (without spending a day) and not make one sound better. This eliminates the f-balance as much as possible and lets us focus on the differences we cannot adjust with eq moves. Hope this clarifies my intentions.

Best,
Pat
Old 1st July 2009
  #152
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
This eliminates the f-balance as much as possible and lets us focus on the differences we cannot adjust with eq moves.
Pat,surely you're well intentioned but I'm not getting your logic here.
They're not meant to be eq'd to sound alike.
A 67 sounds like a 67 and a CS1 sounds like a CS1
Old 1st July 2009
  #153
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Pat,surely you're well intentioned but I'm not getting your logic here.
They're not meant to be eq'd to sound alike.
RB,
I do not think they (or any other mics) are supposed to be eq´d to sound alike either! It is not my intention to make one mic sound like another one because that is the way things should be done in real studio life. I did it for the comparison, I just go one step further when shooting out mics than "just" comparing their raw output. I am shooting out their potential beyond the raw output. And I am reality checking if the things we hear are really "better clarity" or just louder highs, more detail or just a louder file, more "life" or just louder upper midrange, more impact or just a bump in the right region of the bass. Different f-balances have a huge potential to mislead the listener into believing they are hearing quality differences. By minimizing those misleading f-balance differences in a shootout we can focus on the "real" qualities that cannot be gotten with mixing moves. Those differences are important to me and many others, it´s just that extra step, noone is forced to do it, but those who do see a pretty good reason for it.

Best,
Pat
Old 4th July 2009
  #154
Lives for gear
 

i´m with pat.

so i try to explain my point, i hope it works:

wildcowboys´done a very interesting example, that i think is the key for me here.

isn´t it the approach to get the source sound awesome in the mix? isn´t it the goal, to edit and improve it the way it needs to be?

so pat "tried" to match them. did it work? i think no.

the cs1-file still sounds bright, too bright to me. some kind of harshness, but we better forget that word... most modern records are bright as hell, so "i" wouldn´t use such a bright mic. it wouldn´t work, you can eq it, it´s still brighter plus giving less lower freqs.

i never said the cs1 is bad or unusable, nor i meant it. it just won´t fit 9 of 10.
Old 5th July 2009
  #155
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Well then why did Pat eq the u67 to sound like the cs-1? To make the better sounding raw track sound worse? You guys are too much. What's that saying about opinions and assholes? Of course you encounter plenty of both around here...

P.S. since there's only two hundred of these mics that will ever be made and they are already all accounted for, consider yourself lucky that you will never have the opportunity to use one of these so called 'harsh' (based on one internet clip you heard on your laptop) mics. Maybe you should consider hiring Pat to teach you how to use an eq. By the way, where is this 'mix' you are fitting these tracks into that you are so convinced that the cs-1 won't fit 9 of 10 times?

I may have already said it, but I think all of the clips sound very nice. Maybe I read the thread title wrong but I'm pretty sure this isn't a "what mic is best, x or y?" thread, because if it was the obvious answer would be u47...
Old 5th July 2009
  #156
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Well then why did Pat eq the u67 to sound like the cs-1? To make the better sounding raw track sound worse?
It has been explained 3 times. That is what makes your "question" polemic and nothing more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
What's that saying about opinions and assholes? Of course you encounter plenty of both around here...
The only assholes I can detect around here are people who do not respect other people´s aesthetic opinions as soon as they differ from their own.
Old 5th July 2009
  #157
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Couple of points.

- IMO, the only person that could really gain any benefit from your eqing would be you in your environment. Sure it is a fine exercise FOR YOU but sharing it on this particular thread doesn't make much sense to me. No offence intended.

- If I wanted to eq the tracks I would do it in my environment to my hearts content, and then I would have some actual perspective and confidence as to what the eq was doing to the track because I was physically there doing it!

- I didn't mean to imply that anyone on this particular thread was an asshole... I was alluding to the saying, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one."

- Finally, if not respecting someone's 'asthetic opinion' that was derived from listening to one single clip on the internet which was randomly eq'd by someone else on the internet, and who then states that it won't fit into an 'imaginary' mix 9 times out of 10, means I'm an asshole, then in this particular instance an asshole I be!fuuck
Old 5th July 2009
  #158
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
- Finally, if not respecting someone's 'asthetic opinion' that was derived from listening to one single clip on the internet which was randomly eq'd by someone else on the internet, and who then states that it won't fit into an 'imaginary' mix 9 times out of 10, means I'm an asshole, then in this particular instance an asshole I be!
you don´t want to read the meaning of it. life´s not just black and white...

you disqualify yourself by critisizeing someone´s opinion. i don´t need to hear tons of samples. this mic will always sound like the cs1, no matter which eq, gate, comp,... you use.

MJ would always sound like MJ...

you can do whatever you want, you can use this mic or not, and you can offend me - never mind!

the less arguments - the more rudeness...
Old 7th July 2009
  #159
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
If you don't like the fact that Pat has altered the sound clips, Don't listen to those files. The untouched ones are there for you.

We should be able to discus the CS-1 without becoming uncivil or insulting, even if unintentional. I had hoped this thread would include early adopters sharing their opinions about this mic. This would include sound, placement, suitability for certain instruments, etc.
Old 7th July 2009
  #160
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Kris, you saying after attacking two guys here (me being one of them):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
What's that saying about opinions and assholes? Of course you encounter plenty of both around here...
...and then in your next post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
- I didn't mean to imply that anyone on this particular thread was an asshole...
...makes me quit any further discussion with you. It demonstrates that you seem to be one of those who say black first and then say white (while still on the same page) as if noone would realize. Pointless. Just like the usual "It´s not valid because....a)it´s over the internet b)I have not been there personally c)I did not turn the knobs myself and so on and so forth" stuff is so old and boring. People always use it in any thread when they do not have logical explanations that make logical sense to back up their opinions. Like there was a thread with lines to copy&paste for that intent. I should start one. It would be the most viewed thread soon cause it is so useful.

Best to you,
Pat
Old 7th July 2009
  #161
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
My bad. It just seems to me that you and a few other folks have some sort of issue with Oliver (check your first post in this thread) which has absolutely nothing to do with the cs-1.

If I'm mistaken about that I apologise. Hell, I apologise regardless. I generally don't come here to be an asshole.
Old 7th July 2009
  #162
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
yup, I am a pretty bad boy saying the cs1 is equally useable as a u67, one of the world´s most sought after mics for the past 3 decades. what an insult.
Old 7th July 2009
  #163
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddierodriguez View Post
i´m with pat.
In that case I definately misinterpreted eddierodriguez' comments...
Old 8th July 2009
  #164
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
In that case I definately misinterpreted eddierodriguez' comments...
Your conspiracy-busting skills are D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y top notch! bravo!
Old 8th July 2009
  #165
Lives for gear
 
World Studios's Avatar
Pat!

I'm with you! Thanks for the files! I think it is a very good thing to hear the u67 eq'd to be much more close to the CS-1.

I did a similar test with a M269 and my Manley Ref C. With no eq the Neumann sounded dull, but with eq thrown in, you could tell the midrange of the Neumann was better.

In Pat's files, I prefered the warm and more linear sound of the u67. The CS-1 has a more uneven top and sounds a bit thin and brittle up there. The u67 sounds beefier in the lows, but that could well be adresed with an EQ as well, as mentioned above. I am sure there is much more noise in the u67 recordings, though. Especially when given a healthy dose of hf lift.

Don't let the haters bring you down, Pat!

Best,
Old 8th July 2009
  #166
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Thanks Johan....and no, I dont let anyone bring me down, I actually enjoy this forum thing a lot even though it often might seem as if I feel like my avatar picture looks! No way!!! I´m cool, and I hope Kris is also looking at things this way, it´s all good, we´re just talking about microphones after all. I think we are big enough to give and take a little slapping on our foreheads.

Back on the CS-1, the midrange of any CK12 type of capsule mic is usually somehow more mellowed out than any old Neumann capsule you compare it against. Might be interesting to try to eq that into the sound (well I tried to match them anyways, not make one sound better), but I think it has more to do with harmonics/overtones that could possibly be achieved with some sort of saturation instead. The interesting aspect for me is that without eqing the clips it would have been very hard to hear that the neumann seems to have "more" mids as opposed to just louder mids.

Rock!
Pat
Old 8th July 2009
  #167
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
I've been experimenting a lot with this mic... one thing I've come to realize is that not only does the CS-1 hear (has more reach) more than the Neumann but the output is hotter as well. The CS-1 on that clip is NOT distorting but the pre-amp is slightly, changing the high end of the mic (you can hear the buzz sounds in the peaks). However when the pre-amp is adjusted right... Wow!

I've been beta testing the new Electrodyne 500 series pre-amps and have been using the CS-1 mainly... this thing smokes. I step up to the mic and that's it, everything I need is there... no need to ever EQ this mic, just place it in the right spot, give it the proper gain, go... that's it.

I disagree on the lows and mids as they are every bit "there" as my U67 and the top just doesn't exist on a U67 (never has and never will, unless you have them modded).

One thing that the cello player and I noticed was that the U67 actually changed the timbre of his instrument... I've heard this before but never so clearly. The CS-1 captured what the instrument sounded like in the room... the U67 altered that reality and that came from two things... One being the mids are so much more forward on the U67 and two, that the top is so rolled off. it still sounds great just not like Dan's cello sounded in the room.

Oh and btw, Dan, the cello player bought one of the last CS-1's after we did our little experiment.

I must say I wish half you guys were closer because all these arguments back and forth would be put to rest once you hear this mic in person. It's a monster...
Old 8th July 2009
  #168
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
Thanks Johan....and no, I dont let anyone bring me down, I actually enjoy this forum thing a lot even though it often might seem as if I feel like my avatar picture looks! No way!!! I´m cool, and I hope Kris is also looking at things this way, it´s all good, we´re just talking about microphones after all. I think we are big enough to give and take a little slapping on our foreheads.

Rock!
Pat
Old 16th July 2009
  #169
Lives for gear
 
NoEgo's Avatar
Hearing

If I can just make an aural comment without eq and with eq I get an exact same result that being....

The CS1 brings more harmonic from the snare and even gets it to a different tuning somehow ...listening in decent cans...not speakers... Also the U67 sounds almost gated compared to the CS1.. If I wanted to kill some ring I would reach for the U67...if I wanted more room, a lower resonant frequency shining through then the CS1.

I have one on order as well...Glad to see no one has the second round yet cause I was getting concerned that they forgot about me. Number one and two of the first round landed in town here and I want to go here them as well.

This is what I heard anyway. I agree as audio recording individuals we should hear the raw mics on a source and reach for a new mic if it sucks.. I also understand that if one works to make it sound the best for a source that does show a valid example as well. Both are right in this scenario.. In my opinion. ...I would not reach for EQ though till I was close to satisfied first.
Old 16th July 2009
  #170
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoEgo View Post
The CS1 brings more harmonic from the snare and even gets it to a different tuning somehow ...listening in decent cans...not speakers... Also the U67 sounds almost gated compared to the CS1..
Interesting, my perception is the exact opposite. To me the 67 has more harmonic overtones on the snare and a roomier sound (wider pattern) than the more focused cs1 (tighter pattern).
Rock on!
Pat
Old 16th July 2009
  #171
Lives for gear
 
Space Station's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoEgo View Post
If I can just make an aural comment without eq and with eq I get an exact same result that being....

The CS1 brings more harmonic from the snare and even gets it to a different tuning somehow ...listening in decent cans...not speakers... Also the U67 sounds almost gated compared to the CS1.. If I wanted to kill some ring I would reach for the U67...if I wanted more room, a lower resonant frequency shining through then the CS1.

I have one on order as well...Glad to see no one has the second round yet cause I was getting concerned that they forgot about me. Number one and two of the first round landed in town here and I want to go here them as well.

This is what I heard anyway. I agree as audio recording individuals we should hear the raw mics on a source and reach for a new mic if it sucks.. I also understand that if one works to make it sound the best for a source that does show a valid example as well. Both are right in this scenario.. In my opinion. ...I would not reach for EQ thought till I was close to satisfied first.
Agree. As far as shipping goes I dont think they are even into the 20's yet. You are probably looking at 6-8 months at least I would have thought.
Old 27th July 2009
  #172
Gear Addict
 
ajv205's Avatar
 

Old 28th July 2009
  #173
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Have any more children been brought to their new homes
Old 15th August 2009
  #174
Lives for gear
 
gutr2's Avatar
 

I like it...

Based on the samples, the CS-1 sounds really good.
A little OT, but it actually reminds me of my Korby 67 head a little bit. The Korby seems to be sort in the middle between the Lucas and the 67.

It has the bigness of the Lucas, bottom and tops, plus the mid range of the 67. A winner in my books!
Old 15th August 2009
  #175
Lives for gear
 
3rd&4thT's Avatar
 

There have been enough badly handled shootouts on GS that you have to approach any and all of them with a grain, 'scuse me, a barrel of salt. There's just too many variables.

EQ'ing shootout samples adds one more layer of subjectivity and unreliability to the results, even without malice aforethought. I thought the idea was to select the right mic in the first place.

I'm impressed with the caliber of endorsements the Lucas is pulling down, especially on PSW. which I think carries more credibility than GS. Face it, opinions fly freely around here without the slightest basis in experience.

There was far more emphatic discussion here of the strengths and weaknesses of the Neumann TLM67 in the three weeks before the mic was made available, than in the whole time since. Nobody had heard the thing, but based entirely on speculation, we descended to flame wars anyway. Sometimes GS is not the best way to make decisions.

In this particular case, I think a better test is to see if a secondary market in the Lucas CS-1 develops. We're all familiar with the "just bought it, "great!" - six months later, "what was I thinking of? I need something else" syndrome.

I want to see the Buy/Sell boards six months from now. There will only be 200 of these mics in existence. If you see 2 or 3 Lucas CS-1's changing hands in the future, you can draw one conclusion. If you see 25 or 30, you can draw another.

Cordially,
3rd&4thT
Old 27th August 2009
  #176
Lives for gear
 

My pair was just delivered this afternoon! There wasn't anyone with any appreciable level of musical talent around tonight, so I've had to make do with myself.

I don't own--nor have I ever used--any of the old classic mics that inspired these, so I'm not about to throw around any such comparisons. However, over the last few hours I've talked, sung, and played bad acoustic guitar into the CS1, with various other mics beside it at different points in time to provide a frame of reference. Nothing that was recorded tonight will ever be heard by another set of ears as long as I'm alive, but I'm pretty goddamn stunned at the quality of sound it captures.

I don't have time for a proper review, but I'll just say that in recording my voice and guitar with a CS1 next to a U87Ai, KM184, Shure KSM44 and an SM7B (not the most high end lineup by any means, but still very illustrative for me), I consistently preferred every single clip that came out of the CS1 in blind listening. By comparison, each of the other mics seemed to be missing something that the CS1 was reproducing. The "detail" that other people mention is no joke... it's like you can hear individual molecules vibrating at the source.

More later...
Old 27th August 2009
  #177
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
I did more testing right after I posted my original files... I did not bother posting these but thought after reading these posts today "why not"? My apologies on the vocals as I don't sing but I did want to show the detail that these mic's have. Again this is not a "shootout", it's just two great microphones, one that people are familiar with, the other one, not so much... I must say that only one of them sounds exactly like the source material...
Attached Files

CS-1 1 click toward omni drums over right shoulder.wav (1.70 MB, 183 views)

U67 drums over right shoulder .wav (1.96 MB, 177 views)

CS-1 same but 1 foot further away.wav (2.63 MB, 147 views)

CS-1 tc 4 inches away.wav (1,022.2 KB, 164 views)

U67 4 inches away.wav (967.0 KB, 165 views)

CS-1 tc 6_ inches away.wav (993.1 KB, 146 views)

U67 6 inches away.wav (1.06 MB, 147 views)

CS1 one click toward omni.wav (912.9 KB, 136 views)

Old 27th August 2009
  #178
Lives for gear
 
WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Thanks for the files Larry!
I think it shows again that the mics could not be more different. You are right that the CS1 sounds more natural, simply by listening to the drumrecording one can tell that the CS1 track sounds more like a kit sounds in a room. On the other hand for me personally the decision would be totally depending on the feeling I am going for. For example the u67 tracks have a midrange funkyness to them that reminds you of old james brown era stuff the second you open the track. The cs1 strikes you with naturalness and very mellow mids and tastefully boosted highs and bass.

On the vox files the differences are the same, midrangey vintage sound from the U67 (which I find totally suits your voice btw) and the exact opposite, mellowed out mids but lively highs and full bass from the cs1.

Do you happen to have any CK12 equipped mics as well? It would be so interesting to compare the CS1 to something like a C12.

Thanks again & rock on!
Pat

edit: ps - just a side note, I always do tests like these on the same take with both mics next to each other, this way it cannot happen that the intensity of singing is different. On these files you were almost whispering into the cs1 (sounds very intimate and detailed) whereas you were almost singing loud into the u67 (which gives the tracks even more midrange and sounds less detailed). Some guys might not be able to separate those things from the mic sound.
Old 27th August 2009
  #179
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Thanks Larry! Sounds really nice!thumbsup
Old 28th August 2009
  #180
Lives for gear
 

Here's a clip of the CS1 next to a U87Ai on my acoustic guitar. Please keep any comments about the playing to your damn selves. Thanks!

Taylor Big Baby guitar, mics 15" from the 12th fret, into DAV BG8 pres and Mytek 8x192 AD.

To me it's like taking off your sunglasses and suddenly seeing the colors you've become accustomed to missing.
Attached Files

U87.wav (1.71 MB, 299 views)

CS1.wav (1.71 MB, 308 views)

New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
cymatics / So much gear, so little time!
28
nickolo / Gear free zone - shoot the breeze!
33
Seamus TM / Product Alerts older than 2 months
48
hey_mavis / The Moan Zone
4
ScottAltiz / High end
3

Forum Jump