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Lucas CS-1, let's talk
Old 29th June 2009
  #121
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How do you compare them?
Old 29th June 2009
  #122
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Favorably but different.
I agree,the 67/CS1 comparison is about as apple/oranges as it gets.
The C12 isn't going anywhere.love it.a classic
The CS 1 by comparison is more transparent/open sounding,less coloration especially from 2k and up
the C12 had a low mid energy bump around 200hz to the CS' more even lower freq spectrum
having both in the same position over the drum kit ,the Cs1 had a rather startling amount of depth and detail.you could hear the sound of the sticks reacting to the coating on the heads and the rattle of the snares more so than w/ the C12.
that could be a good or bad thing depending on what you want
to me it seems like another high quality lens to work with,albeit a very clear,undistorted one.
looking forward to comparing to some Brauner mics.more to follow
Old 29th June 2009
  #123
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
having both in the same position over the drum kit ,the Cs1 had a rather startling amount of depth and detail.you could hear the sound of the sticks reacting to the coating on the heads and the rattle of the snares much more so than w/ the C12.
that could be a good or bad thing depending on what you want
You mean kind of like analog vs. digital??? heh heh heh
Old 29th June 2009
  #124
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT View Post
It is not a direct clone of any single mic, but owes more to the C12 and M49.
Wow, that must be a hermaphrodyte then!
Old 29th June 2009
  #125
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You mean kind of like analog vs. digital??? heh heh heh
heh
Old 29th June 2009
  #126
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Silvertone's Avatar
I never meant to test/compare a U67 AGAINST a CS-1... I was simply recording cello and put up a mic I'm very familiar with to do it, a U67 (and a good sounding one at that). I simply put up the CS-1 next to the U67 as it arrived earlier that day... that's all. If I had a C12 or M49 I would have put them up to compare them to the CS-1 because they are more in line (sound wise).

As I stated before if I were using the CS-1 exclusively for this recording I would have backed it off a good 6 inch to a foot more.

I've done a lot more extensive testing with the mic since then and I'll state it again... it's a mic that sounds like no other but fits into the class of the top tier of microphones, that's all. It's a great microphone... it won't bring about world peace or suddenly give you engineering skills... it will just help you to take one of the most accurate audio pictures that you can... that's all.

Peace to all.
Old 29th June 2009
  #127
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
So I have finally been able to listen to the drum clips. Thanks for providing them.

My observations:
1) the CS1 file is more than 3,5dB louder
2) both files have been saturated/distorted at some stage of the recording
3) the u67 seems to have gotten slightly more saturation
4) the f-responses of the two files are of quite opposite nature, the neumann rolling off bass and highs (to be expected for a 67) while the cs1 is boosting bass and highs (to be expected for a CK12 type of capsule)
5) they sound like they might not have been superclose to each other (the body freq of the snare sounds cancelled out a little at the 67´s position)
6) they seem to have different polar patterns, the u67 wide (roomier) and the cs1 tighter (more focused).


I can totally understand why many think the cs1 sounds superior to the 67 and I also understand that many think the 67 sounds a bit "trashy" in comparison especially when the loudness difference is not compensated in addition to the f-response. But I also understand when someone prefers the middish sound though as the highlighted midrange can sound "real" while the boosted highs can sound artificial especially when listening to the highhat.

Anyways, after playing with an EQ to bring the two sounds and levels closer together (MUCH closer), I came to my personal conclusion which is that none is better (not even for this drum example) but just different and both good. If I had to choose one without applying EQ in this example I would choose the CS1. With eq I might choose the 67 on most styles of music (EDIT: simply cause I like the Neumannesque added midrange grit. Others might prefer the midscooped "bigness" of the CS1. I am not trying to say the CS1 is inferior) but I could live with both in any case...

If anyone is interested and Silvertone is ok with it I can post the eq´d and leveled drumclips so everyone can hear it. Lemme know.

Rock on!
Pat
Old 29th June 2009
  #128
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geareyes's Avatar
Postman Pat.....Oh, i mean....post them Pat!
Old 29th June 2009
  #129
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geareyes View Post
Postman Pat.....Oh, i mean....post them Pat!
I have uploaded them but will not ppost the link until Silvertone says it is ok with him, it is his copyright after all.
Rock!
Pat
Old 29th June 2009
  #130
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
I have uploaded them but will not ppost the link until Silvertone says it is ok with him, it is his copyright after all.
Rock!
Pat
Please Pat go ahead and post them, thank you.

I did mention how/why and what happened when I recorded these drums in an earlier posts I believe. I should have never posted any of this stuff before I had time to do proper tests and files. My apologies all.

Just so you know that 3.5 dB is how much more the CS-1 captured in the same position as the U67 and the pre-amp was down 6 to 8dB on the CS-1's channel over the U67's channel. That was the case with the cello as well. These were through my Melcor AE-20 pre-amps.

You are exactly right when you say none is better... they are different... much like a AKG would be to a Neumann to a Brauner to a Schoeps to a Gefell to a Bock to a Lomo... well you get the audio picture.

Thanks for taking the time to do this Pat...
Old 29th June 2009
  #131
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Old 29th June 2009
  #132
Here for the gear
 

clips

For what ever it's worth to my ear the U67 makes the snare sound more musical and less "roomy".
Old 29th June 2009
  #133
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Space Station's Avatar
Old 30th June 2009
  #134
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Sorry you guys have lost me now...what the point of an EQ'd mic sample?
The point is that some factors (levels, positioning, polar pattern) made one mic seem inferior to another one, not on purpose, but it did. By using simple EQ and fader I adjusted the "inferior" mic to make audible that it is not inferior but just different. The same way that the u67 looked bad before it would be possible to make the cs1 look bad in comparison on a different source/placement/levels....in that case I would have reached for the eq to adjust the cs1. Just what we do after the recording....mix.
Best,
Pat
Old 30th June 2009
  #135
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sefanzed View Post
For what ever it's worth to my ear the U67 makes the snare sound more musical and less "roomy".
Interesting, I think it is more roomy but has more overtones (more hf density) but it does not have the impact/punch of the cs1. different me thinks.
Old 30th June 2009
  #136
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Space Station's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
The point is that some factors (levels, positioning, polar pattern) made one mic seem inferior to another one, not on purpose, but it did. By using simple EQ and fader I adjusted the "inferior" mic to make audible that it is not inferior but just different. The same way that the u67 looked bad before it would be possible to make the cs1 look bad in comparison on a different source/placement/levels....in that case I would have reached for the eq to adjust the cs1. Just what we do after the recording....mix.
Best,
Pat
Yes, but if you read back in this thread, according to most of the people the U67 recorded in the sample sounds the way a U67 is expected to sound. Some people are even saying they prefer it.

I dont think this helps at all, it just confuses things further.
Old 30th June 2009
  #137
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Yes, but if you read back in this thread, according to most of the people the U67 recorded in the sample sounds the way a U67 is expected to sound. Some people are even saying they prefer it.

I dont think this helps at all, it just confuses things further.
Well then we disagree on a higher level. Any additional information about a certain topic always helps to find out more about the truth, as long as the readers are willing and able to put all the information together and draw logical conclusions from it. Less information has never been a better way to find out about truth, it is a way to manifest misconceptions.

Back on the original comparison....if we read back in the topic we also find way more "conclusions" drawn from the original files that say the cs1 is a way better microphone than a U67. More "reach", clarity, definition, punch, life....all I am adding to the discussion is: "hey guys, look closer, listen at equal levels and with a comparable frequency balance before making overly quick judgements!" It helps people find out about the true characteristics of the mics aside from frequency balance which can be easily adjusted with eq, a thing that we all do anyways as soon as we start to mix.
I always try to compare equipment in a way that shows me the essence of the unit, the "remaining percentage" that cannot be altered or gotten with any mixing techniques. Record a vocal with a dark boomy ribbon and a C12 for example and compare them without touching the eq. In most cases you would throw away the ribbon. But compare them after treating them the way you would in a mix to get the best out of both options, and then compare both optimized scenarios, that will leave you with a solid judgement about what is the better choice in the end. Without treating the signals the way we would mix them anyways in the end, we are just comparing preset freq-curves to each other. There are no general better or worse eq curves. Sometimes the seemingly worse choice turns into the better (or equally good) choice once eqed. These things have to be taken into account imho whenever people rank one piece of gear highly over another.

Rock,
Pat

ps - not trying to take the joy you have with your new purchase, it will be a fine mic no doubt, go have fun with it and record some! More clips, more betta!
Old 30th June 2009
  #138
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Space Station's Avatar
Manipulated information is also a pretty good way to manifest misconceptions.

I want to hear the raw mic file not the EQ you are using. I do understand your logic, I just think it is flawed.
Old 30th June 2009
  #139
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Manipulated information is also a pretty good way to manifest misconceptions.

I want to hear the raw mic file not the EQ you are using. I do understand your logic, I just think it is flawed.
Sorry man, you just want to pick a fight to defend the "superior" status of your purchase.

"manipulated information"? fuuck
Read Silvertone´s and my posts. His recordings, my eq´d and level adjusted version. No hidden manipulation in sight. Pretty ridiculous to call me out as a liar who presents manipulated clips when everything has been put clearly visible & simple on the table.
Old 30th June 2009
  #140
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
tried to upload the file here as an attachment to this post. hope it works.
Attached Files
File Type: zip u67eq.zip (5.42 MB, 45 views)
Old 30th June 2009
  #141
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Space Station's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
Sorry man, you just want to pick a fight to defend the "superior" status of your purchase.

"manipulated information"? fuuck
Read Silvertone´s and my posts. His recordings, my eq´d and level adjusted version. No hidden manipulation in sight. Pretty ridiculous to call me out as a liar who presents manipulated clips when everything has been put clearly visible & simple on the table.

Come on dude grow up. I didnt expect a standard GS reply from you.

If you added EQ to the original files you manipulated them.. that is not a personal attack for F'sake.

Who on earth said anything about 'hidden manipulation' and calling people 'liars'!

I've got no idea whether my purchase will be superior to my U67, I wont be able to tell that for a long time.

I dont agree with your logic, that is all.
Old 30th June 2009
  #142
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
Come on dude grow up. I didnt expect a standard GS reply from you.

If you added EQ to the original files you manipulated them.. that is not a personal attack for F'sake.

Who on earth said anything about 'hidden manipulation' and calling people 'liars'!

I've got no idea whether my purchase will be superior to my U67, I wont be able to tell that for a long time.

I dont agree with your logic, that is all.
Sorry if I got your message wrong, but whenever someone calls a comparison "manipulated" it usually means what it means in my world, making me look like someone lying to others by not telling them about the "manipulation". Maybe it´s a language thing, as in my native language the word is very negative. Apologies if that was the misunderstanding.

The logic thing....sorry man but logic is nothing to agree or disagree with, opinion is. If something makes logical sense it is right, if it does not make logical sense it is wrong. Would be interesting to hear why you think it makes no sense to listen to differences between two mics after they have been level adjusted and frequency balanced to get them into the same ballpark.

Best,
Pat
Old 30th June 2009
  #143
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Eq'ing a mic to sound like another for a comparison test seems weird to me as well. Besides the obvious, it can cause artifacts.
Old 30th June 2009
  #144
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
So you think it is not a good practice to record with a U47 and a Brauner for example and compare if the U47 & some HF eq sounds better in the mix than the naturally brighter Brauner without? Interesting.
To me it makes tons of sense to also compare final results as opposed to just the raw ingredients. I want to deliver the best results to my clients, not what sounds best before I have mixed it. But of course everyone´s mileage may (and does) vary, no problem with that.

So everyone have a listen and decide for yourself if you want to listen. You do not need my opinion to form your own and you do not need anyone trying to keep you from listening to more clips.

Best,
Pat
Old 30th June 2009
  #145
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geareyes's Avatar
Thankyou for the clips Pat!

Had we not had access to the unprocessed clips prior to your eq'd submission then it would be a pointless adventure.

Since this is not the case, i cant see the harm.

We know they are eq'd, so we have the option to take your version with a grain of salt,if we so wish.

Mike
Old 30th June 2009
  #146
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emfrank72's Avatar
 

Pat, I want to thank you as well for your real world comparison. I think it is very helpful to hear a raw as well as a processed version. And I agree, more information is a good thing.
Old 30th June 2009
  #147
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Kris's Avatar
It certainly tells me that you know how to use an eq, and also how to match levels so I definately gained something from your exercise! Bravo!
Old 30th June 2009
  #148
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Thread Starter
Hey Pat and Larry, Thanks for the posts. I had changed the level and applied eq to the files when I first listened to them. Played them raw, then ran them through an API 5500 just to hear how they could be manipulated. This didn't change my opinion. I liked both for different reasons and the eq just allowed me to see how far I could take them in a different direction.

As long as the raw files are there, I don't see any problems with having the ones that Pat ran through an eq and level matched. If you don't like this way of listening to sound clips, just download and listen to the unprocessed ones for comparison. It's all good.
Old 30th June 2009
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
So you think it is not a good practice to record with a U47 and a Brauner for example and compare if the U47 & some HF eq sounds better in the mix than the naturally brighter Brauner without? Interesting.

Best,
Pat
Sure, but this isn't a mix it's a "shoot-out". I mean why stop at high frequencies? Why not roll in a little 200hz on the CS-1, maybe it will sound better than the u67 if you do that I mean why stop there, might as well add some compression - cause you know, we do it in the mix anyhow...

That 's my point, it's endless.

Having said that, I do understand your point. A 4038 (for eg) some HF boost and it kills whereas without it, other choices might have been made. But we have to leave those decisions to experience and not examples IMO.
Old 30th June 2009
  #150
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RoundBadge's Avatar
I never eq mics to sound like other mics.I wouldn't want a 67 to sound like a CS 1 or vs versa
this thread is getting weird.

Later
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