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Sennheiser 441. Buy onother later or as pair now?
Old 5th August 2005
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 

Sennheiser 441. Buy onother later or as pair now?

Hi, I was offered a pretty cool deal, a pair of 441s for about $550.


As I still gotta buy loads of other important hard- & software I
initially planned to buy just one for solo instrument recordings, mostly brass (have many "pro-leveled brass-friends" I want to 'use') , thinking I always could buy another for if I wanted to record a brass-section, concerts and whatnot.

But now I'm not so sure as the later to be bought mic might have slightly different characteristics.....?

I couldn't find satisfactorily info on how (and if...?) mics are actually paired and sold as a couple for stereo miking, so I wonder if this could be an issue.


Thanks in advance!
Old 6th August 2005
  #2
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jjblair's Avatar
Buy them as a pair at that price and sell one on eBay.

I honestly can't see a reason to use them in stereo. Mine only ever sees the bottom of a snare.
Old 6th August 2005
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Buy them as a pair at that price and sell one on eBay.

I honestly can't see a reason to use them in stereo. Mine only ever sees the bottom of a snare.
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Since I only know about this mic from stories.
One user was talking about using them for stereo.
That's the only one though, the others were indeed about using it for snare, voice, bassdrum, some brass etc
But yeah I might just do that.

Still wondering about mics specifically selected and sold as pair, if not the 441s.
Or has this story sprung only from my twisted mind...

anyone?
Old 6th August 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 

$550 for a pair? buy 'em! very useful and utilitarian mics.
joshua
Old 6th August 2005
  #5
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kevinc's Avatar
 

Well they`re a hell of a lot more usefull than a 57 I`d say and most studios have at least 5 of those.

You really can`t go wrong with the 441.

It`s like a super high end dynamic to me and it sounds good to great on pretty much everything including vox.

I`d like to have to have a few more myself.

It could be I just love getting such a cool mic for $250 or so off ebay though...

I`m getting cheap now after blowing so much money on gear over the years.

I LIKE the deals !
Old 6th August 2005
  #6
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
I honestly can't see a reason to use them in stereo.

I'm guessing you've never heard a pair of Sennheiser 441's on grand piano. Really sweet. A pair of 441's one meter apart just over the player's head looking down onto the strings is a thing of beauty.

Plus, while you're using one under the snare you can have the other on the hihat. (That way you can have *TWO* tracks that won't get used in the final mix!)

If they're the same age & have seen approximately the same use I'd buy the pair. $550 is a great deal. And I'm just not convinced a 10 or 20 year old 441 will sound much like a brand new one.
Old 6th August 2005
  #7
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absrec's Avatar
 

I hear 441s are great for harsh singers. They also rule on bottom snare.
Old 6th August 2005
  #8
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cfjis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Mine only ever sees the bottom of a snare.
My fave under-snare mic... always fits in the mix well.
The only thing that sucks about them is the clip... truly a lame design (I think we covered that in the moan zone recently).

-CJ
Old 6th August 2005
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Haha! You know, when I was in school, I did a lot of weird experimenting. One thing I did was I recorded a full symphony orchestra (Mozart clarinet concerto) with the main pair being a pair of 441s!!! You should have seen the look on the face of my supervisor! Honestly, it didn't sound as bad as one would think. Although dark (as would be expected from a pair of dynamics), they performed VERY well. Actually, I was able to fool a lot of people into thinking the recording was done with a pair of condensers.

I also once tried them as overheads on a drum kit. Once again, they performed great! The cymbals were a little dark but I thought it was a nice character. The drummer actually remarked that it was the most "life like" he had ever heard his cymbals recorded. And the toms were picked up beautifully as well.

Another example of where I used the 441's as a stereo pair was as an XY pair on a guitar amp. It gave a wider image than if I had only used a mono 441 . . .obviously.

Although I probably wouldn't use these "techniques" in a professional situation (except maybe the XY guitar), I still think having two 441s would be useful since they are so versatile. I have used them sucessfully on snare, toms, guitar and brass. They can even be a great vocal mic if the situation is right. I would keep them both if I could.

Cheers!

Reuben
Old 6th August 2005
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross
I'm guessing you've never heard a pair of Sennheiser 441's on grand piano. Really sweet. A pair of 441's one meter apart just over the player's head looking down onto the strings is a thing of beauty.
Sweet! I've got to try that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Plus, while you're using one under the snare you can have the other on the hihat.
I forgot about that one . . .great hihat mic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfjis
The only thing that sucks about them is the clip... truly a lame design
I also agree that the clip sucks. And when it breaks, you're in trouble . . .unless you don't mind duct tape!

Reuben
Old 6th August 2005
  #11
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robmix's Avatar
If you don't want them I'll take 'em. Like wise if you want split up the pair let me know. 441's are great utility mics - guitars, sitar, percussion, piano. It's endless.
Old 6th August 2005
  #12
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jjblair's Avatar
Yes, they are great utility mics and I'm sure sound OK on a piano and OHs, etc. Just wouldn't be the first thing I'd reach for in my mic closet. But if you have a limited selection, I guess that I'd rather use them than SM57s on OH or piano.
Old 6th August 2005
  #13
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paultools's Avatar
 

If you can find enough of them, aim them straight down at a 90 degree angle to your tom heads and brace yourself!
Old 6th August 2005
  #14
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DirkB's Avatar
Very cool mic, have used them on leadvocals quite often. It' my go-to hi-hat mic when I need one, (no kiddin', high shelf on, bass roll-of on S)...

I never need two, so yes, buy both and sell one on Ebay seems a good idea.

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 6th August 2005
  #15
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covert's Avatar
 

Grab the pair.

Senn makes a hard rubber clip for them. It's a great thing. Wish there was a similar clip for the 421.
Old 6th August 2005
  #16
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Doublehelix's Avatar
 

I love my 441, and use it a lot, especially for snare bottom, which is apparently more common than I thought based on the posts above! And all along, I thought I had a secret weapon!!! Hehe...

I ordered one of the newer hard rubber (black) clips from Sennheiser...$40 later it shows up, but I must admit that it works much better than the crappy clear plastic one. (But $40 for a mic clip??? Sheesh!)
Old 6th August 2005
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Yes, they are great utility mics and I'm sure sound OK on a piano and OHs, etc. Just wouldn't be the first thing I'd reach for in my mic closet. But if you have a limited selection, I guess that I'd rather use them than SM57s on OH or piano.
Yeah, they wouldn't be my go-to mics either for those situations. But it's good to know you could use them if you're in a bind.

Reuben
Old 6th August 2005
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross
I'm guessing you've never heard a pair of Sennheiser 441's on grand piano. Really sweet. A pair of 441's one meter apart just over the player's head looking down onto the strings is a thing of beauty.

Plus, while you're using one under the snare you can have the other on the hihat. (That way you can have *TWO* tracks that won't get used in the final mix!)

If they're the same age & have seen approximately the same use I'd buy the pair. $550 is a great deal. And I'm just not convinced a 10 or 20 year old 441 will sound much like a brand new one.

Sorry, Don't understand "(That way you can have *TWO* tracks that won't get used in the final mix!)"

I'm sure you don't mean eventually not using these tracks at all...?
Old 6th August 2005
  #19
Lives for gear
 
StuartMac's Avatar
 

Oh yes he does!! In fact I reckon you can add the ride mic to the list of unused subs as well 50% of the time - at least.
Old 6th August 2005
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
Grab the pair.

Senn makes a hard rubber clip for them. It's a great thing. Wish there was a similar clip for the 421.
Ah, I've been looking for more comments on that clip.
(MZQ 441) So this one is actually working? Holding the 441 under any angle?
No slipping...?

That way I won't have to use the duct tape solution I don't fancy. -sorry rghose;-
(would do it though if no other option...)

It just makes me wonder if Sennheiser never got complaints about these things and tried to develop something descent.
Did we all neglect to mail them? -I did -
should we?

Anyway thanks for the posts guys.

It helps me make a decision (haven't made one yet ).

(posts still welcome far as im concerned.)
Old 6th August 2005
  #21
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paultools
If you can find enough of them, aim them straight down at a 90 degree angle to your tom heads and brace yourself!
I guess you never heard my tom mic shootout in Fletcher's forum. The 441 was far from my favorite of all the options.
Old 6th August 2005
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac
Oh yes he does!! In fact I reckon you can add the ride mic to the list of unused subs as well 50% of the time - at least.

Sorry again, maybe you could spell it out a bit for me, I think this is getting lost in the translation for me (I'm Dutch). heh

With risk I might not be taken seriously anymore I ask;

what do you call a 'sub' then,

I can picture recording 2 tracks (ehm, of many....;-),

the HH with one 441 & snare with the other, but not actually using these recorded tracks in the mix is not what we're talking about....
Old 7th August 2005
  #23
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbarbaar
Sorry again, maybe you could spell it out a bit for me, I think this is getting lost in the translation for me (I'm Dutch). heh
the HH with one 441 & snare with the other, but not actually using these recorded tracks in the mix is not what we're talking about....

What I meant was, while the 441 is an excellent sounding bottom snare mic, & an excellent sounding hihat mic, I almost never find either of those signals mandatory to getting a good drumkit sound...and even if I have those tracks, I rarely will use them.
Old 7th August 2005
  #24
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kevinc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross
What I meant was, while the 441 is an excellent sounding bottom snare mic, & an excellent sounding hihat mic, I almost never find either of those signals mandatory to getting a good drumkit sound...and even if I have those tracks, I rarely will use them.

Try the 441 on the middle of the snare side 2- 6 inches off. (depending on the skill of the drummer. 8 inches if he`s really good.)

Sounds like a snare as opposed to something you have to turn into a snare in the mix. I don`t know who told me that around here but it`s true. Top of the snare micing to me sounds like y **** for the most partcompared to the side,
Old 7th August 2005
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Try the 441 on the middle of the snare side 2- 6 inches off. (depending on the skill of the drummer. 8 inches if he`s really good.)

Sounds like a snare as opposed to something you have to turn into a snare in the mix. I don`t know who told me that around here but it`s true. Top of the snare micing to me sounds like y **** for the most partcompared to the side,
Yeah, I've done that a few times (with various mics) and it often sounds really good. Just make sure the mic isn't pointing at the vent hole.

Reuben
Old 7th August 2005
  #26
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Nutmeg II.'s Avatar
 

MD441 is a great mic!

I have 6 of them and they rawk on drums, nice for some horn section work, vocals, did work nicely on a bass cab, ...

One thing that didn't get mentioned is, that they are hyper cardiod.

So if you use them as a stereo pair in a XY like situation (or ORTF or ...) you have to use a different angle between the mics or you get a hole in the stereo field.

The hypercardioid does help on drums since you get a nice drum to drum seperation, but be carefully with the cymbals, cause the hypercardioid his more sensitiv to pic up sound from the back (were a cardiod has the most rejection).

If you use the mic on a vocal talent, make sure he is not moveing like Muhamed Ali in front of the mic or you gone have a hard time rideing and equing the track to sound consistend.


One thing that was always a negativ thing with that mic (yeah besides the clip) is that the mic is so long, so one has trouble to fit it into a drumset.
I would love to have a short body version of the MD441!
Old 7th August 2005
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

One thing that didn't get mentioned is, that they are hyper cardiod.
To be really anal about this, they are actually supercardiod.

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite...transid=000762

However, all the points you mentioned would still apply since the polar patterns are quite similar.

Reuben
Old 7th August 2005
  #28
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DirkB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Try the 441 on the middle of the snare side 2- 6 inches off. (depending on the skill of the drummer. 8 inches if he`s really good.)

Sounds like a snare as opposed to something you have to turn into a snare in the mix. I don`t know who told me that around here but it`s true. Top of the snare micing to me sounds like y **** for the most partcompared to the side,
I posted some snare mic mp3's yesterday in the MP3 section. There's also a MD441, you can check how it compared to a SM57, C42 and R-121.

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 7th August 2005
  #29
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kevinc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
I posted some snare mic mp3's yesterday in the MP3 section. There's also a MD441, you can check how it compared to a SM57, C42 and R-121.

Greetings,
Dirk

Cool Dirk ! thumbsup

I`ll head over and check them out.
Old 7th August 2005
  #30
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
I love 441's on the tops of toms... but I don't think I'd use a bottom snare mic even at gun point... I've never gotten any bottom snare mic to sound good in my work ever...

As mentioned, 441's are great utility mics... so if you don't want the pair, I know I'd be more than happy to snap up a pair at that price.

Peace.
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