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digital summing killing my sound????
Old 28th April 2003
  #91
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 

You don't consider Sonic Solutions to be one of the better mastering platforms? You can use a Mac for Sonic...

Or did you mean software-only mastering?
Old 28th April 2003
  #92
Gear Maniac
 
psytechguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Teacher
the 3 best sounding DAWs happened to be PC exlusive(well i t hink paris is PC xclusive)
Paris runs on PC or Mac.
Old 28th April 2003
  #93
Quote:
Originally posted by littledog
You don't consider Sonic Solutions to be one of the better mastering platforms? You can use a Mac for Sonic...

Or did you mean software-only mastering?
Once upon a time yeah it was up there, but not anymore.
Old 29th April 2003
  #94
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 

I had no idea! I know a lot of the mastering places I tend to use are still using S.S. here in Boston. We must be behind the curve.

What has replaced it?

It's still a lot better than trying to master in Pro Tools, that's for sure. It had some really cool features that I'm not sure how many other platforms have, like:

the ability to jump back and forth between songs for balancing levels

the no-noise algorhytm

the interpolation feature

the cool variety of preset curves for fades

and probably a bunch of stuff I don't even know about because I'm not a mastering guy...

oh well, the world marches on...
Old 29th April 2003
  #95
Quote:
Originally posted by littledog
I had no idea! I know a lot of the mastering places I tend to use are still using S.S. here in Boston. We must be behind the curve.

What has replaced it?

It's still a lot better than trying to master in Pro Tools, that's for sure. It had some really cool features that I'm not sure how many other platforms have, like:

the ability to jump back and forth between songs for balancing levels

the no-noise algorhytm

the interpolation feature

the cool variety of preset curves for fades

and probably a bunch of stuff I don't even know about because I'm not a mastering guy...

oh well, the world marches on...

Software wise:

Sequoia/Samplitude is really good.

Wavelab is

Sonic Solutions has lost a lot of their business because of PT.

Don't be surprised if one day Sonic will be part of the Avid/PT structure, since they dumped Masterlist.
Old 29th April 2003
  #96
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Teacher
the 3 best sounding DAWs happened to be PC exclusive
Paris and Pyramix work with a PC, but they're doing the real processing on dedicated DSP, like Pro Tools does.

Samplitude is host-based, I think, so it's more truly PC-based processing.
Old 29th April 2003
  #97
Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
Paris and Pyramix work with a PC, but they're doing the real processing on dedicated DSP, like Pro Tools does.

Samplitude is host-based, I think, so it's more truly PC-based processing.
I had a friend who was mixing down to the Pyramix for surround processing.

I think I may check it out for a mixdown machine as well instead of the Masterlink.

It looks like a really cool company(Vincent Burel). 4.1 looks really appealing.
Old 29th April 2003
  #98
What I like about the company is that when someone suggest something that will make it better, the guy doesn't wait to implement it, he just does it.

Not like Digi. We've been asking for the delay compensation thing for a while and still nothing. How about being able to copy auxes? Just simple sh*t that makes mixing so much easier.

dfegad Digi


I may investigate a Pyramix system with a laptop so I can take it with me on mixing gigs. The way you can import PT stuff is very elegant on it.

I was on the forumn and it looks like the EQ plug ins are great, the comp is ok and the new mod to the reverb plug makes it more versatile.

You can also use DX/VST plugs if you like and the TC Powercore.
Old 29th April 2003
  #99
Where can I get more info on the Pyramix stuff???
Old 29th April 2003
  #100
Gear Maniac
 
Heterodox's Avatar
 

I'm having problems finding even a ballpark/list figure for the Pyramix system. I'd like to know what

Pyramix software
2 Mothercards
1 ADAT daughter
1 AES/EBU daughter

would roughly cost - list or otherwise.
Old 29th April 2003
  #101
Quote:
Originally posted by jeronimo
Where can I get more info on the Pyramix stuff???

www.merging.com
Old 29th April 2003
  #102
Lives for gear
 

Hey Thrill, thanks for your interesting and helpful replies on this forum!

I was just wondering if u had made any comparison mp3's of mixing through the sbm-2 and just straight pro-tools mixes? Not nessesarily scientificly matched but just something close to compare differences.

I am considering getting one along with an SSL compressor to do my hip hop mixes with.

Also, taking a look at the picture on botique audio website, it looks like the sbm-2 has 6 outputs and 18 ins. I can't see any other information on the site. I take it there's a master insert so what are the other 2 outputs for? Any other info of interest?

Thanks

Nate
Old 30th April 2003
  #103
jho
Lives for gear
 
jho's Avatar
 

brainfart...sorry
Old 30th April 2003
  #104
Quote:
Originally posted by nd33
Hey Thrill, thanks for your interesting and helpful replies on this forum!

I was just wondering if u had made any comparison mp3's of mixing through the sbm-2 and just straight pro-tools mixes? Not nessesarily scientificly matched but just something close to compare differences.

I am considering getting one along with an SSL compressor to do my hip hop mixes with.

Also, taking a look at the picture on botique audio website, it looks like the sbm-2 has 6 outputs and 18 ins. I can't see any other information on the site. I take it there's a master insert so what are the other 2 outputs for? Any other info of interest?

Thanks

Nate

Hi Nate,

I've never made any, but I can probably put together a CD for you if you like and just send it to you(unless you just want to come up to NYC and check it for yourself).heh


The SBM-2 has 16 ins, a stereo out and a master insert send and return. The extra pair of outs can be used to chain up to 4 units(64 inputs).
Old 30th April 2003
  #105
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hi Nate,

I've never made any, but I can probably put together a CD for you if you like and just send it to you(unless you just want to come up to NYC and check it for yourself).heh


The SBM-2 has 16 ins, a stereo out and a master insert send and return. The extra pair of outs can be used to chain up to 4 units(64 inputs).
Thanks for the invitation i would love to come to nyc! But i dont think i can make it up there from new zealand anytime soon. Being ten thousand miles away from the cutting edge makes these discussions extremely valuable.
I would appreciate it alot if you were able to send me a cd.
I'll pm you my address.


Nate
Old 30th April 2003
  #106
Quote:
Originally posted by nd33
Thanks for the invitation i would love to come to nyc! But i dont think i can make it up there from new zealand anytime soon. Being ten thousand miles away from the cutting edge makes these discussions extremely valuable.
I would appreciate it alot if you were able to send me a cd.
I'll pm you my address.


Nate
That's fine Nate.thumbsup
Old 1st May 2003
  #107
Here for the gear
 

How do you think the SBM-2 compares to the dangerous 2 bus versus the manley? Somewhere in between?

I am mostly looking for better summing because all of the music I do is very bass heavy dance and hip-hop, and I have not been satisfied with internal mixes and have generally found hybridization works best.

Appreciate any of your input as to the differences now that you have heard the dawsum sampler plus your own kit.

I ordered it as well and I need to listen far more closely, but I definitely noticed differences when I cut back and forth between the different mixes.

Mike
Old 1st May 2003
  #108
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
We did the same for a while on the older SSL's. I know guys that are still doing it.

A pair of Pultecs across the stereo outs was the only way I could ever deal with an E or G, personally.

Regards,
Brian T
Old 1st May 2003
  #109
Quote:
Originally posted by deconstruct
How do you think the SBM-2 compares to the dangerous 2 bus versus the manley? Somewhere in between?

I am mostly looking for better summing because all of the music I do is very bass heavy dance and hip-hop, and I have not been satisfied with internal mixes and have generally found hybridization works best.

Appreciate any of your input as to the differences now that you have heard the dawsum sampler plus your own kit.

I ordered it as well and I need to listen far more closely, but I definitely noticed differences when I cut back and forth between the different mixes.

Mike
Hey Mike,

I liked the SBM-2 over the Dangerous 2 bus and the Manley.

When I compared them side by side, the Dangerous was a little too clean(great for mastering though) and the Manley was a little too soft(but great for certain kinds of music like Jazz).

The SBM-2 is somewhere in the middle. It just sounds a little more musical to me in a certain way. Also having pan pots on the front helps me when doing final tweaking.

If you are not feeling your mixes in the box, than this may not be the solution.

I was getting excellent mixes in the box and I needed something to give me that extra push(especially on bass heavy/lots of tracks mixes).

To be honest, if I didn't have it i would still be getting great mixes in the box. It takes more work(lots of trial and error) but it can be done.

I haven't heard the DAW Sum sampler yet. But i have worked on alot of the platforms(with the exception being the Paris system). I know some of the benefits and drawbacks of each.
Old 1st May 2003
  #110
Lives for gear
 

So here is something pretty freaky, IMO.

Lynn has posted the null numbers for all of the platforms over at his place.

All of the files I spotted as better or worse than the norm had larger than average null differences from the original mix. That's comforting.

But what's whack to me is that I can clearly hear differences between files that null down to around -120dB. I mean, whodathunkit?

We're not yet technically measuring some of the things that the human ear does. I predict we're about to discover something about the nature of digitzed sound that has eluded us so far. And I think we may come up with a way to quantify or measure it practically.

It's like inferring the existence of an undiscovered planet, based upon unexplained irregularities in the orbit of a known planet. There are unexpected/unexplained sonic irregularities demonstrated by this CD, IMO. Somebody, maybe you or maybe me, is going to have an epiphany about how to explain this.

I'm currently pondering intensely. This is the kind of thing that will needle me until at least somewhat resolved.

Regards,
Brian T
Old 1st May 2003
  #111
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
and the Manley was a little too soft

Man, we are so on the same page, sonically. Those are the exact words I used in my post over at 3D Audio to describe the sound of the Manley on the DAWSUM CD.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 1st May 2003
  #112
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Brian T,

My feelings exactly on the nulling thing. Back in 1998, I was hearing differences between PT Mixer plug-ins and other tests even though they were nulling out down to similarly-low levels. Those low-level differences still seem to matter a great deal to our ears....

Jon
Old 1st May 2003
  #113
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
I must admit that I too am surprised at the audibility of differences between mixes that seem to nearly null on this CD. However, they are NOT huge, major "this sucks, that doesn't suck" differences, and they do require listening at higher SPLs to discern, but subtle differences, interesting nonetheless.

However, I almost got caught in a pilot's error when comparing. If you've got all the mixes lined up perfectly with polarity reversed on one to examine what's left in the null, and then go back to one at a time, A-B or A-B-X comparison, make sure you remove the polarity inversion from the equation!! It's pretty clear that you'll hear plenty more difference between mixes, even identical copies of the same mix if one is inverted and the other is not...

Most of us know to avoid such a mistake, but I confess I spent a couple of "what the hell?" moments as I'd gone on in rapturous, focused listening after null-testing and forgot to un-invert!

"Duh!"

-dave
Old 1st May 2003
  #114
Riffer
 
lflier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
But what's whack to me is that I can clearly hear differences between files that null down to around -120dB. I mean, whodathunkit?

We're not yet technically measuring some of the things that the human ear does. I predict we're about to discover something about the nature of digitzed sound that has eluded us so far. And I think we may come up with a way to quantify or measure it practically.

It's like inferring the existence of an undiscovered planet, based upon unexplained irregularities in the orbit of a known planet. There are unexpected/unexplained sonic irregularities demonstrated by this CD, IMO. Somebody, maybe you or maybe me, is going to have an epiphany about how to explain this.

I'm currently pondering intensely. This is the kind of thing that will needle me until at least somewhat resolved.
Yeah! I haven't heard Lynn's CD yet but will be ordering it in a couple of weeks. But I've always had a nagging feeling that there are lots of things about the digital recording process that haven't been quantified or adequately addressed. Not that they can't be or never will be, but I've definitely grown weary of people insisting that it's all in everybody's heads and we're not hearing anything. Kudos to guys like Lynn who are willing to follow through on challenging these assumptions.

"Whatever it is" also seems to get much worse as track count and DSP are increased.

As for hearing differences that null to -120, it could be as simple as that the junk hits the D/A converter differently on playback and causes it to interpret the audible data slightly differently. I wonder if you'd hear the same differences on different converters, or whether converter designs have gotten similar enough that most of their filters act the same way?

Soooo many questions.
Old 4th May 2003
  #115
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I have a couple clients who can hear differences between different hard drives, CD burners, blanks and burning speeds. They both use Masterlinks and have the very same preferences although neither has even heard of the other and they live 3000 miles apart. The only thing that makes sense is the Masterlink being sensitive to different jitter profiles.

Meredian, one of the early high-end CD player manufacturers found that they couldn't use identical replicated CDs for blind listening tests of their proposed designs because most subjects could easily identify which disk was which! CD-Rs finally allowed them to compare different player designs rather than different "identical" disks.

The hardest part of digital audio to me is making sure you are really comparing apples to apples. Unless the DAC is really insensitive to jitter, it's always a moving target yet very few people will ever hear the finished product without some kind of jitter.

Combine this with the fact that you have to use dither in order to prevent distortion and the fact that different dithers can have different subjective effects and it begins to make sense that decent sounding, properly designed mixers are more likely to sound different from each other than not because of the different dither implementations.

It's all a can of worms!
Old 7th May 2003
  #116
SUM Diff Pix

Check 'em out. It's just a few, but quite fascinating.

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...&f=19&t=000024
Old 8th May 2003
  #117
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

as for the pyramix system, I actually drove to Switzerland to visit them and have a demonstration. I was very impressed, not only for the DSD aspect. It's super powerful, you can edit while you record and audition etc... the mixer is a dream, you can make any kind of console you want you can move edits around in real time, you can move audio or the crossfades independently against the "Clip". theres so much more. but it has its downfalls. for those used to working on fabricated hi edit type of audio it misses the Beat detective type of editing and the psychedelic types of plugins etc. for classical or jazz or folk or ethnic performance based music it's a clear top choice, and maybe even for film post etc.
as for the DSD aspect, I assisted once on a session where there was Randy Brecker playing. I heard the dry unmixed tracks of the Chick Corea recordings through some supposedly very reliable Swiss monitors P?? but I heard the sax how I remembered hearing it once before and that was enough for me. At AES in Amsterdam I listened to every available new format that I don't have the luxury to listen to normally an SACD was the only forrmat that impressed me, you could really hear how overcompressde Sting's voice was in wrapped around my finger, but it was like listening to something played back directly from the 2". I'm up for it soon.
oh yeah I think that the polls of this summing cd show that the in the box summing won out over the analog consoles. or did I read that on some other very biased forum?
Old 8th May 2003
  #118
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 7rojo7

oh yeah I think that the polls of this summing cd show that the in the box summing won out over the analog consoles. or did I read that on some other very biased forum?
that wasn't my take at all. In any case, not enough people have done it yet to get a meaningful consensus. But you really have to do it for yourself. If you're prepared to be honest with yourself it's a great listening experience.

-R
Old 9th May 2003
  #119
Right now there is a very interesting thread going on right now at Lynn site:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ul...&f=19&t=000020

It backs up my point about the summing test not being a true summing test until you push it.
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